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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

It's not a national cup so it's not the cup I speak of.

Asim You need to be honest, I think you know where he is coming from.

Unsure, what's the total playing next year in the Scottish Challenge Cup ?
What's the total playing in the Scottish junior cup next year, Forgetting the WOS teams ?
We know there are 63 junior teams left in the West region, and most are joining the new WOS and a tiny few will not participate in the junior cup next season. I believe, as the years move on I can see the amount of teams falling each year who want to participate in the junior cup anymore.

I can see eventually a full non league Scottish cup with the teams from the highland league and hopefully an Aberdeen / Tayside tier league joining in making it a full non league Scottish cup and can also see the challenge cup continue for the lowland league teams and below.

Personally for me, the Scottish Junior cup was brilliant and loved playing in during my time but times change and I see it as insignificant in the bigger picture of things. Lot of teams moving who are junior through and through will eventually start to change their attitude when more people, younger, become involved in their committees and see what is best for the club, not using history of a junior grade/cup  to stifle/slow progression of their club.

To the clubs who left the juniors in the East a couple of years ago, do they still see themselves as junior teams or senior teams and do they have interest in the Scottish junior cup ?.  I believe most, I could be wrong though, but I believe most think of themselves now as a senior team and have no interest in the Scottish Junior Cup and if that's true then there a reason why they think that way, junior grade is dwindling.

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It's not a national cup so it's not the cup I speak of.
You want a national cup, at senior level, that's the scottish cup. That is why all the clubs wanted licensed and moved to the pyramid in the first place and why most of the west sides are moving, they want into the big scottish.

If you want to expand a non league cup and include highland league and tayside teams then go for it, i dont mind that, but all of these clubs who didn't want a wet tuesday in elgin are then looking at just that.

Also, you keep speaking about the prestige of the junior cup, not everyone thinks it has that prestige. It doesnt draw major interest or sponsorship like it used to. The junior game is and has been a closed shop for years now with little to no real interest in it from outside it's own bubble. That got worse as soon as the east was essentially removed.

By all means have a new cup but it'll take some agreement between associations and I'm not sure every club would be interested in it, given their regional based cups offer the exact same with less travel.

I think an all in south challenge cup (wosfl, eosfl, sosfl and LL) would be good, it would have the same number, if not more participants, than the old junior cup used to have.
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1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

The idea of incorporating the colt teams of the bigger SPFL sides into the wider pyramid structure is a bad idea that just refuses to go away. Living in the Glasgow area, I know lots of Rangers and Celtic diehard fans who would never countenance going to a reserve/colt game....merely following the first team is enough of a drain on their finances as things stand.

Selling it to smaller clubs as a financial benefit is a red herring too - as someone already said the real small fry will see a lot of any potential profit eroded by the increased policing and stewarding required as the local OF bams will inevitably come out of the woodwork and pretend it's their big team on display, while fans of the medium size sides will see it as an insult to be playing against a second string and will actively stay away.

I was in bigger crowds at Dunipace U20s and Hill of Beath U20s on Friday nights that I've seen at the reserve games of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Motherwell, St Johnstone and Dundee Utd. Nobody cares about them.

This is an idea that won't die because the supporters of it have no understanding of lower and non-league football, very little understanding of reserve football, and don't realise that it will never be accepted.

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

Gordon Smith is such a fucking balloon he is surely the ideal man to take the rump of WRJFA remainers forward into the 1950s.

It is literally the case, no exaggeration, that Gordon Smith understands lower and non-league football less than every single regular poster on this thread. 

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20 minutes ago, edinabear said:

It would not only be the Old Firm who would be involved in this. Hibs have already ran a colt side in the Pyramid. Caley Thistle Colts applied for Highland League next year.  Motherwell, Livingston, Hearts and Aberdeen have all expressed interest previously 

They nearly did. Folded at the end of the 2013-14 season have won the EoS First Division. The problem is that the EoSFL wasn't a part of the pyramid until the creation of the LL playoff from 2014-15.

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Going off on a tangent here as people talking in the past about reserve teams joining and boundaries moving etc...

 

My question, out of the junior teams moving to the senior/pyramid, the West region and some East juniors, which teams do we know or thing will add a development squad straight away? Also which teams already in the pyramid will be or intend to add a development squad for the development league ?.
DO we think there will be a new development west league to facilitate the new development teams that may potentially start ?

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25 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Asim You need to be honest, I think you know where he is coming from.

Unsure, what's the total playing next year in the Scottish Challenge Cup ?
What's the total playing in the Scottish junior cup next year, Forgetting the WOS teams ?
We know there are 63 junior teams left in the West region, and most are joining the new WOS and a tiny few will not participate in the junior cup next season. I believe, as the years move on I can see the amount of teams falling each year who want to participate in the junior cup anymore.

South Challenge Cup: Potentially 143 give or take unknowns

16 Lowland League
39 EoSFL
13 SoSFL
1  Glasgow University
63 West Region to WoSFL
1  Drumpchapel United to WoSFL
9  Applicants to the EoSFL
1  Eyemouth United possible return to the EoSFL

SJFA Scottish Cup: Potentially 134. More likely less than that

63 West Region
38 East Region
32 North Region
1  Rothie Rovers were said to be applying to the North

Edited by FairWeatherFan
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20 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I was in bigger crowds at Dunipace U20s and Hill of Beath U20s on Friday nights that I've seen at the reserve games of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Motherwell, St Johnstone and Dundee Utd. Nobody cares about them.

This is an idea that won't die because the supporters of it have no understanding of lower and non-league football, very little understanding of reserve football, and don't realise that it will never be accepted.

It is literally the case, no exaggeration, that Gordon Smith understands lower and non-league football less than every single regular poster on this thread. 

Challenge cup attendances are affected by some kind of novelty factor as these teams rarely play first teams competitively. If they'd play these teams in a league, the novelty factor would soon wear off. In The Netherlands for example, the colts of Ajax and to a lesser extent PSV got decent (away) attendances in cup games when they played in the cup. Especially Ajax have fans all over the country just like the ugly sisters here, and this gave fans in other parts of the country a chance to watch their youngsters locally. When they joined the Eerste Divisie (2nd tier), high attendances were predicted as a result. The first season it wasn't too bad, but now the colt teams are consistently (and by quite a distance) the teams with the worst attendances in the division. The only times they ever got 4 figure crowds was due to away crowds when playing big(ish) clubs, especially when these clubs were in a promotion/title challenge. Home attendances are often only just in 3 figures and sometimes even only double figures. There have literally been loads of cases of more family/friends of the players being in the crowd on freebies than paying home fans. In some of the games between colt teams the crowd was only in double figures. In away games it's very common for these teams to only get single figure crowds in the away end, sometimes even nobody at all!

I don't see why Scotland would be any different.

Edited by Marten
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1 hour ago, edinabear said:

There was talk on a few forums about Rangers Colts applying for this new West set up but looks like that hasn't amounted to anything.

People have a very strong dislike to this idea which I understand  to an extent but it loses all credibility when we have Stirling Uni reserves playing in the Eofs, Edusport Reserves, Stranraer Reserves playing in the SofS with Annan Reserves playing last year. Not so long ago there was also Berwick Rangers and Spartans reserves playing in the EofS. 

It makes far more sense to include the reserve sides of Premiership clubs in these leagues than the ones listed above. 

I'd have Timbuktu Reserves and Portobelly Jube Jube's before I had the real Rangers or Celtic in the league, never mind their reserves.

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2 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

There's been a lot of shite posted in this thread over the years (much of it by me), but the single worst thing is when anyone kids on they give a solitary Frenchman's f**k about the "South Challenge Cup".

lolol, Marshy, I disagree with stuff you say and agree with stuff you say, just sometimes you put in a way that makes others uptight, which is honestly up to them if they want to bite but I  don't mind.
Agreed, I didn't care or know anything about the cup in the past but I believe that will start to change as more teams are included in this cup next year, (depending on convid).
Its similar in my view about junior teams joining the WOS, it wont be the same for them anymore as they are playing  in a league where more excitement, anticipation and bigger sponsorship opportunities will arrive giving them more money to play with to strengthen their teams and these teams will be playing in the challenge cup. SO next years challenge cup is going to be totally different to last least or this years challenge cup that's for sure and for the better which no one can deny that.

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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2 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:

Gordon Smith knows f#ck all.

He's about 14 years out of date, because thats the last time Queen of the South were 'part time'.

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1 minute ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

lolol, Marshy, I disagree with stuff you say and agree with stuff you say, just sometimes you put in a way that makes others uptight, which is honestly up to them if they want to bite but I  don't mind.
Agreed, I didn't care or know anything about the cup in the past but I believe that will start to change and more teams are included in this cup.
Its similar in my view about junior teams joining the WOS, it wont be the same for them anymore as they are playing  in a league where bigger sponsorship opportunities will arrives giving them more money to play with to strengthen their teams and these teams will be playing in the challenge cup. SO next years challenge cup is going to be totally different to last least or this years challenge cup that's for sure and for the better which no one can deny that.

:) I lay it on a bit thick cause I like winding folk up, it entertains me a bit. If people are posting about football rather than dross about coloured circles or similar then I enjoy it.

You may well end up being right about the SCC and I hope that is the case, but the name value of the Junior Cup carries a lot of sway still. I'm sure if Linlithgow made the final of the Junior Cup as opposed to the final of the SCC, for example, they'd take at least double the crowd to the game. Much of it is marketing and I think utilising the brand of the Junior Cup which has already been built would take a lot of the hard sell out of it and bring more money into the game by using that historic name brand to pack people in.

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5 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

:) I lay it on a bit thick cause I like winding folk up, it entertains me a bit. If people are posting about football rather than dross about coloured circles or similar then I enjoy it.

You may well end up being right about the SCC and I hope that is the case, but the name value of the Junior Cup carries a lot of sway still. I'm sure if Linlithgow made the final of the Junior Cup as opposed to the final of the SCC, for example, they'd take at least double the crowd to the game. Much of it is marketing and I think utilising the brand of the Junior Cup which has already been built would take a lot of the hard sell out of it and bring more money into the game by using that historic name brand to pack people in.

Yet when anyone attempts the same you either make a big kid-on announcement that you've blocked them or start greetin' about being picked on. Oh dear!

ETA- and there's always your personal catharsis, the red dot. One incoming here, no doubt.

Edited by jimbaxters
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Just now, jimbaxters said:

Yet when anyone attempts the same you either make a big kid-on announcement that you've blocked them or start greetin' about being picked on. Oh dear

Read the sentence you put in bold and you'll maybe work out why that is.

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51 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

They nearly did. Folded at the end of the 2013-14 season have won the EoS First Division. The problem is that the EoSFL wasn't a part of the pyramid until the creation of the LL playoff from 2014-15.

Again people are going on about colts and reserves.there is no chance of these teams joining the pyramid setup.and yes caledonian colts.stirling uni will be highlighted.lets take the uni first.since they never resigned from the eos once they were accepted into the lowland league,it was just a complete over sight given that the eos were reduced to 11 clubs.sos had done exactly same to boost numbers.if any of them ever win their respective leagues,one team from each would cease to be.as the rules state no club can have two teams in the same league even by name change.they will only become a problem as to blocking a liecenced club who finishes second. colts teams even the spfl dont want colts teams playing in the pyramid.its not rangers wish it was Motherwell hearts and Aberdeen who were trying to facilitate this but the spfl clubs voted it down.the same way they have always overwhelmingly voted for rainy tuesday nights in Elgin.

Edited by Lowland team
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I don’t want colt teams in the lower leagues. I wouldn’t mind the players being loaned out for a nominal amount (expenses) Train with their big team a few days a week and a couple of nights with their loan team. Gives them match time and gain experience with older players. I know some already do this but if it was widespread it could be mutually beneficial.

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2 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

Positive "newsbite" from Lesmahagow in Daily Record

Lesmahagow boss Robert Irving says West of Scotland League can revive juniors

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/lesmahagow-boss-robert-irving-says-21788529

 

Safe to assume they are in along with Hurlford and that leaves only 9 possible rumpers.

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