Junior football, what is the future?

[GNU_Linux]

I see an article by Gordon Smith in the Herald today once again bringing up this stupid suggestion of reserve teams being added to the SFL and regional top leagues. Paints a picture how these premier reserve teams will save the part time lower SFL teams by brining big crowds, and calls out the tunnocks Cup as an example of this. Yet he shows no recognition at all, probably not aware, of the massive changes going on in the lower non leagues of the pyramid and now with the WoS league joining the pyramid, and fails to recognise as pointed out on here that the Premier colt teams do not bring big crowds at all in the Tunnocks cup. What a load of rubbish which has been thrown out by every league every time it comes up. May it say it will be new senior clubs getting promotion from through the pyramid into the spfl which will revitalise the lower league game in Scotland, and not B teams of Premier sides. Get the idea thrown out and hope the top leagues don't entertain this stupid idea in a knee jerk reaction due to the covid19 crisis. 

Article for those curious

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/18357931.spfl-urged-introduce-premiership-reserve-teams-regionalised-lower-leagues-radical-shake-up/

WHEN Gordon Smith first floated his revolutionary plan to regionalise the lower leagues and incorporate top flight reserve sides into the new-look structure during his time as SFA chief executive he was disappointed by the response.

“I went to David Longmuir at the SFL with my idea in 2009 and he put it to his member clubs,” he said. “It was rejected. David said the reason they gave was they felt the B teams would get all the publicity. I just laughed at that. I said: ‘What publicity are they getting in those divisions at the moment?’ But I didn’t make a big fuss.”

Smith still thinks, over a decade on, that change is desperately required. In fact, he believes it is more important now, when many Ladbrokes Premiership, Championship, League One and League Two outfits are facing uncertain futures due to the coronavirus pandemic and shutdown, than ever before. He is convinced it will have myriad benefits for a game facing a financial crisis.

Crucially, he knows for a fact that influential figures at many of Scotland’s biggest clubs, who have seen the members of their under-20 teams benefit from their involvement in the Tunnock’s Caramel Wafer Cup in the last few years, are of exactly the same opinion.

The suspension of the game in this country and the prospect of Hearts being relegated before the 2019/20 campaign has been completed, have increased the possibility of the current 12-10-10-10 set-up, which has been in place for the last 20 years, being abandoned.

Smith, the former Kilmarnock, Rangers, Brighton, Manchester City and Basel forward and Ibrox director of football, presents a compelling argument for his radical league reconstruction blueprint.

He envisages that part-time outfits like Annan, Elgin City, Peterhead, Queen of the South and Stirling Albion would be able to cut down on the considerable costs they incur travelling the length and breadth of the country to fulfil fixtures between August and May being part of League One North and League One South.

At the same time, he is confident they could significantly increase their attendances and revenue by playing a greater number of local derbies as well as matches against opponents like Aberdeen, Hibernian and St Johnstone.

The former agent is also of the view that the most promising players at Dumbarton, Greenock Morton, Stranraer and Raith Rovers would improve their chances of winning money-spinning moves to their professional rivals by performing well.

“The reasons for it are two fold,” said Smith. “You will have teams playing each other who are nearer each other so that means less cost and probably more derby matches as well.

“But having the reserve teams of the Premiership clubs also invigorates it. That means you get bigger crowds then and you make more money. It would be a big boost for Annan to be playing against a Celtic or a Kilmarnock. Their expenses go down, but their income would increase. You play at their stadiums.

“There is another aspect to it as well. The smaller clubs’ players would be getting tested against top class opposition - which would mean that more of their players are putting themselves in the shop window to be transferred. Premiership teams would be able to see they could play against their players.”

The difficulty that many promising kids at Premiership clubs encounter making the step up into senior football has long been a concern for those charged with their development. Could this be a solution? Smith is adamant it would be.

He feels that Celtic, Hearts, Livingston and Rangers would be able to bring on their youngsters greatly by giving them regular competitive football on a Saturday afternoon in front of sizeable attendances instead of making them play insipid youth matches involving only their contemporaries in lifeless empty stadiums.

“Younger players at the Premiership clubs would also be getting tested against a better standard of opponent and would come on as a result of that as well,” said Smith.

“We have seen a move towards this with the colts teams playing in the Tunnock’s Caramel Wafer Cup. But my idea isn’t for colts teams to go into regionalised leagues it is for reserve teams. I am in favour of boys playing alongside men and against men. That brings them on better, you can tell who is going to make it better.

“They would be playing in front of crowds, not big crowds admittedly, but bigger crowds than they are playing in front of at the moment. They will also be playing on a Saturday. At the moment they are playing on Tuesday mornings and Thursday afternoons and that sort of thing. It would be better for them all round.”

Reserve teams have long been able to compete in the lower tiers of major footballing nations like France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain. But the likes of Atletico Madrid B, Bayern Munich II, Benfica B, Jong Ajax, Juventus U-23, Monaco B and Real Madrid Castilla are not allowed to join their first teams in the top division. That is exactly the model Smith favours.

“They Premiership clubs don’t win promotion if they top the league,” he said. “They could discount the games against the reserve teams at the end of the season and the team that has the most points goes up.”

The SPFL board are set to meet on Monday to discuss how to move forward with the 2019/20 season. Whether to declare Celtic champions and relegate Hearts based on the Premiership placings on March 13 or try to complete the final fixtures at a later date will be the pressing issues. But expanding the top flight and altering the lower leagues has been mooted in some quarters.

Endorsing the proposals put forward by Smith would be quite a departure in Scotland, where we are not exactly renowned for being trailblazers or visionaries, but he senses there is a growing appetite for change in the academies, on the training pitches and in the boardrooms at many Premiership clubs.

“Anybody I have talked to about this in the higher leagues all think it’s a good idea,” he said. “I have spoken to people at Kilmarnock, St Johnstone. They think the lower league clubs would be better off if it is regional and if top flight clubs were involved. They also know their youngsters would come on. They all think we should be doing it.”

[FairWeatherFan]

31 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I think there is a (very small) rise in crowds for smaller part time teams when they play the Old Firm Colts in the Challenge Cup. Almost certainly caused by Rangers/Celtic fans in towns like Stranraer or Cowdenbeath using it as a chance to see their big team's wee team but that minor increase is negligible and I doubt very much would last if they were playing in a league as opposed to the one off novelty of a cup match.

Long term it will do so much more damage to those clubs to be viewed as "equals" of other clubs reserves.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

12 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Apples and oranges. Challenge Cup always has lower crowds. Need to compare gates for challenge cup home games and it shows there is a marginal increase.

[Guest Moomintroll]

It's not a national cup so it's not the cup I speak of.

I know it's been mentioned on here before but why not keep the Regional Challenge Cups & use the Junior Cup as a non SPFL Clubs SFA Trophy? Could Incentivise the winner by giving them a bye to the 4th Round of the Scottish Cup the year after.

[edinabear]

There was talk on a few forums about Rangers Colts applying for this new West set up but looks like that hasn't amounted to anything.

People have a very strong dislike to this idea which I understand  to an extent but it loses all credibility when we have Stirling Uni reserves playing in the Eofs, Edusport Reserves, Stranraer Reserves playing in the SofS with Annan Reserves playing last year. Not so long ago there was also Berwick Rangers and Spartans reserves playing in the EofS. 

It makes far more sense to include the reserve sides of Premiership clubs in these leagues than the ones listed above. 

[Hillonearth]

46 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

The point about the crowd sizes is demonstrably untrue anyway, as shown by Celtic and Rangers B games barely cracking a couple of hundred. It's not an exaggeration to say that Bonnyrigg or Talbot, for example, would bring more financial benefit by way of crowd sizes than any of the B teams.

The idea of incorporating the colt teams of the bigger SPFL sides into the wider pyramid structure is a bad idea that just refuses to go away. Living in the Glasgow area, I know lots of Rangers and Celtic diehard fans who would never countenance going to a reserve/colt game....merely following the first team is enough of a drain on their finances as things stand.

Selling it to smaller clubs as a financial benefit is a red herring too - as someone already said the real small fry will see a lot of any potential profit eroded by the increased policing and stewarding required as the local OF bams will inevitably come out of the woodwork and pretend it's their big team on display, while fans of the medium size sides will see it as an insult to be playing against a second string and will actively stay away.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

34 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

It's not a national cup so it's not the cup I speak of.

I know it's been mentioned on here before but why not keep the Regional Challenge Cups & use the Junior Cup as a non SPFL Clubs SFA Trophy? Could Incentivise the winner by giving them a bye to the 4th Round of the Scottish Cup the year after.

The name of the cup, and who runs it, doesn't really bother me but I think a fully national non-league cup with a day out at Hampden at the end of it would be a great boost to tier 5 and below. I think by allowing clubs to play in the Junior Cup and senior leagues the SJFA are trying to push the Junior cup into that position.

If the history and prestige of that cup mean as much as those who love it says it does it would attract better sponsors and crowds and be the natural fit for it rather than creating a new trophy. That's for the clubs to decide and if it suits them to do so I imagine they would go for it.

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Apples and oranges. Challenge Cup always has lower crowds. Need to compare gates for challenge cup home games and it shows there is a marginal increase.

[Pyramidic]

Positive "newsbite" from Lesmahagow in Daily Record

Lesmahagow boss Robert Irving says West of Scotland League can revive juniors

Quote

Irving says he's all for change, and the new set-up is something a bit different.

Lesmahagow boss Robert Irving welcomes the West of Scotland League, and hopes it breathes new life into the junior game.

Irving relishes change and says the game in Lanarkshire had become stale, but warned league bosses not to send them on too many trips outside of the county.

The ’Gow gaffer, who doesn’t expect his side to play again this season, said: “It’s the only way forward. It has got a bit stale, so this might revive it and bring it back to life.

“I don’t know how they will work out the divisions, but we’ll wait and see.

“This could inject new life into it, and it’s something a bit different.

“The Lowland League came out of nowhere and they took a lot of players away from our clubs and I think the West of Scotland League will be a bit like that, but hopefully we will still be able to attract some of the top players.

“I like change, I’m all for anything changing, and it was a long while ago that the leagues were last changed. I like it to be shaken up.

“Our league was quite local, we were in with teams like Larkhall Thistle, Lanark United, Carluke Rovers and Bellshill Athletic, so there were 16 derbies right away.

“With the greatest respect, if you’re heading down to Maybole, Irvine, Largs or somewhere like that then the supporters are not going to travel.

“We need to see how it’s going to be set up but I’m all for the new league.”

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/lesmahagow-boss-robert-irving-says-21788529

 

[Bad Wolf]

Gordon Smith is such a fucking balloon he is surely the ideal man to take the rump of WRJFA remainers forward into the 1950s.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, edinabear said:

There was talk on a few forums about Rangers Colts applying for this new West set up but looks like that hasn't amounted to anything.

People have a very strong dislike to this idea which I understand  to an extent but it loses all credibility when we have Stirling Uni reserves playing in the Eofs, Edusport Reserves, Stranraer Reserves playing in the SofS with Annan Reserves playing last year. Not so long ago there was also Berwick Rangers and Spartans reserves playing in the EofS. 

It makes far more sense to include the reserve sides of Premiership clubs in these leagues than the ones listed above. 

The WoSFL isn't accepting reserves. Certainly not in the first season.

The Lowland League bars reserve teams in its rules. Lowland Team (?) who seems in the know with some of the things going on suggested a motion is going forward that would prevent a reserve side having a team in a league directly below. That would mean Caledonian Braves SoS would have to fold.

Berwick Rangers and Hibs reserves were all accepted into the EoSFL before the pyramid was established. Spartans and Stirling University never resigned from the EoSFL when they joined the Lowland League that's how they kept teams in there once the pyramid was a thing. Selkirk would later try and get a reserve team into the EoSFL but were rejected.

So its really only the SoSFL that has been taking in reserve sides of late. If they hadn't they would be a 13 team league.

[Doonhamer1969]

3 hours ago, Hossy87 said:

Go on, it'll be something different for your isolation diet. 

The way things are going, we'll all be eating cloth shortly anyway.....

[Doonhamer1969]

20 hours ago, Dev said:

This is what Hurlford United, Lanark United and Annbank  United have shown in the past. Strong clues?

http://www.hurlfordunited.com/

An agreement has been reached that WRFA junior clubs can join the pyramid & retain SJFA membership to continue to play in the Scottish Junior Cup. 

Etc.

Mar 25, 2020

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/Record_Sport/status/1242822244335845376

 

Lanark United FC Retweeted

 

 

Daily Record Sport

 

@Record_Sport

 

 

 

SPFL pyramid masterplan agreed as Juniors get set to move en-masse to new West League |

 

@Doonhamer79

 

https://bit.ly/2UiMiMc

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/AnnbankUnited·

 

Retweeted:

@TheJuniorPuffer  14 Feb

 

Would you prefer your club to move into pyramid with or without SJFA?

 

With SJFA

 

43.5%

 

Without SJFA

 

42.9%

 

Just not at all

 

13.6%

 

588 votes · Final results

'@Doonhamer79' ??

Imposter !!

[parsforlife]

That article is superb.

i particularly like the idea that league 2 players are going to earn moves playing well against colts.

’ Who’s that big number 4? worth putting an offer in, he’s really used his physicality and 300 senior appearances to completely body the scrawny 16 year old forward we’re playing’

Anyway it’s not going to happen, it didn’t happen when smith had any Influence, it won’t happen now and it won’t happen in 9 months once he’s completely forgot about this and trots out a similar article .

On the junior cup, it’s admirable trying to keep it going, but I can’t see it doing any more than gradually dwindle away in the new structure. The early rounds are going to struggle and I can see a fair few withdrawals from smaller sides once it becomes clear midweek games will come in after 1st or 2nd attempts, possibly moved onto school Astro pitches.  Regionalisation might come in to try avoid this, but then it loses some of the romance.

For the bigger sides these early rounds will inevitably at times find themselves right before/after important league games, and whilst they’ll be happy to muddle through those early rounds, squad rotation will come in to some degree. Fans, managers and players will all have one eye on the league game.

Then as we get to the later rounds the games will still be played with importance, but the neutrals and 1 game a season types won’t be there as the head to head games between sides competing for league titles and the promotion play-offs as well as Scottish cup games vs league sides will be the games that attract them.

Then we get to the final, which clubs will not find acceptable to be played at such a late date.   So we have fans/players going through all the excitement/heartache of the end of the season and a week or so later look for them to go again.  The talk of 15000 at games in the 80s or 50k in the 50s will be replaced with talk of how the finals used to get 7/8k and be by far the biggest game of the season and in a decade you’ll get the same ‘ok granddad’ answer from those that never saw this as adults.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

29 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Some REALLY boring maths coming up but, hey, if others find interest so be it

Discounting games that come after the 3rd round where the latter stages of a competition may skew attendances I done some digging. I only went for home crowds from part time clubs and excluded the Queen's Park v Celtic game as that was played away from Hampden for some reason. I'm also only making averages from games in the last four seasons as that's how long Colt teams have been in the cup.

2016 Cowden v Celtic got an attendance of 449. Cowden's only other home game in the cup in that time was a "derby" v East Fife with an attendances of 261 so the have a 72% increase in games v Old Firm Colts (but one game alone is a poor indicator of trends)

2017/18 Annan v Celtic. Two years in a row Annan got Celtic colts. Average attendance was 272. Their only other home cup game in that time was at attendance of 307. An 11% decrease.

2017 Dumbarton v Rangers got 389. Dumbarton had five other home games in that time. One v Morton, who usually bring a decent crowd to Dumbarton with the close proximity, one v St. Mirren colts and one v Connah's Quay. All three might have different effects on crowds (good or bad) but overall their game v Rangers saw a 17% decrease on the average.

2019 Berwick v Rangers got 303. Berwick's average attendance was down 27% on other home games at this stage in the competition but this includes ties v Spartans and QotS which could also skew attendances. QotS game was over double what they got v Rangers

2019 Stranraer v Rangers got 524. Stranraer's home games had a home tie v Partick, higher crowd, and a home tie v Partick colts, lower crowd, plus one v Spartans. Overall the Rangers crowd was a 46% increase on the usual crowds.

The main thing I found was that, once we take away outliers, such as bigger travelling crowds from Championship teams or crap crowds from other colt teams there was very little difference and this was a huge waste of time.

 

[DiegoDiego]

That article is superb.
i particularly like the idea that league 2 players are going to earn moves playing well against colts.

Seeing as Sevco didn't even notice Andy Robertson when he was up against them in League Two I think we can safely file that alleged benefit in the bin.

[morley]

37 minutes ago, edinabear said:

There was talk on a few forums about Rangers Colts applying for this new West set up but looks like that hasn't amounted to anything.

People have a very strong dislike to this idea which I understand  to an extent but it loses all credibility when we have Stirling Uni reserves playing in the Eofs, Edusport Reserves, Stranraer Reserves playing in the SofS with Annan Reserves playing last year. Not so long ago there was also Berwick Rangers and Spartans reserves playing in the EofS. 

It makes far more sense to include the reserve sides of Premiership clubs in these leagues than the ones listed above. 

The reserve teams you mention however all sit at tier 6 or below. This proposal in the article is about reserve teams going in at tier 2/3/4. Very different. Teams in spfl 1 and 2 in particular have been protected for to long, and this is nothing more than another old boy scheme to protect these lower clubs from the threat of dozens of ambitious, in many cases larger, clubs from coming up to challenge them through the pyramid. 

[RedEd]

7 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

That article is superb.

i particularly like the idea that league 2 players are going to earn moves playing well against colts.

’ Who’s that big number 4? worth putting an offer in, he’s really used his physicality and 300 senior appearances to completely body the scrawny 16 year old forward we’re playing’

Indeed. So badly written it presumes that Morton and QoS are part-time. Maybe they think  the only full-time sides outwith the Premier are Dundee and Dundee Utd..

[RedEd]

1 minute ago, morley said:

The reserve teams you mention however all sit at tier 6 or below. This proposal in the article is about reserve teams going in at tier 2/3/4. Very different. Teams in spfl 1 and 2 in particular have been protected for to long, and this is nothing more than another old boy scheme to protect these lower clubs from the threat of dozens of ambitious, in many cases larger, clubs from coming up to challenge them through the pyramid. 

Nothing to do with protecting lower SPFL clubs. They don't want reserve sides either. It's all about some of the twisted sisters trying to impose their views because they they (the people as well as their opinions) think they are important.

[edinabear]

13 minutes ago, RedEd said:

Nothing to do with protecting lower SPFL clubs. They don't want reserve sides either. It's all about some of the twisted sisters trying to impose their views because they they (the people as well as their opinions) think they are important.

It would not only be the Old Firm who would be involved in this. Hibs have already ran a colt side in the Pyramid. Caley Thistle Colts applied for Highland League next year.  Motherwell, Livingston, Hearts and Aberdeen have all expressed interest previously