Junior football, what is the future?

[Doonhamer1969]

2 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Well if you leave the SOS at tier 6 the alternative to a 3-way play-off is to have all the west clubs apply to join the SOS (after all it's what the SFA wanted licence applicants from the west to do). At which point you need conferences to sort things out anyway.

Of course this discussion could be academic once we find out later this month which SOS clubs have applied. There's meant to be 3 or 4, so even less chance of a licensed champion capable of playing in the LL being produced.

Didn't realise that was the case. But their website, twitter and facebook haven't been updated for ages so not sure how we're expected to know they have applied for the WOS.

I could be wrong of course, but I think the only SoS club that will actually apply to the WoS will/could be Bonnyton.

[Doonhamer1969]

3 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Are you kidding on? They bought into the pyramid at its inception, they weakened their own league and dropped a level for the good of the pyramid and have deservedly fought out for promotion ever since.

You seem to want to gloss over that which cannot be glossed over.

They cause no harm in being where they are, they dont convolute the process, if a south region team gets licensed, wins their league then wins the playoff, they deserve promotion to the LL.

Just because there is a wosfl now doesnt mean the sosfl have to go anywhere or join any other league. There is no requirement for the sosfl to change anything as they dont create an issue where they are, they most likely solve one for current sosfl clubs playing in the LL.

This^^

[james666]

1 hour ago, Marshmallo said:

The SoS League has never been above tier 6 in the pyramid.

 

The SoS was on par with EOS and HFL. Does that mean the HFL moved up a level? Yes there was no fluid promotion up, but if spaces became available, those were the leagues tjat clubs generally came from. Annan and Stranraer have both played in the SoS (first teams aswell as, recently, reserves)  Peterhead, Elgin, ross county obviously from HFL, Berwick Rangers from Eos. To me that says tier 5, even with the lack of proper promotion /relegation. 

 

EOS WIKI PAGE

 

The EoSFL was traditionally one of Scotland's three "senior" non-leagues which sat outside the Scottish Football League (SFL), the other two being the Highland Football League and the South of Scotland Football League (SoSFL). 

[Ray Patterson]

Why are so many people obsessed with the South of Scotland League, can we just focus on getting the West, and North sorted first before we obsess over the minutiae of SoS League?

On the conference format, I personally would like to see:

Top 16  in 2020-21 qualify for Tier 6, 17-32 "relegated" to Tier 7 with the remaining teams "relegated" into two loosely regionalised conferences of 16 at Tier 8. Relegating clubs by 4 divisions seems quite extreme for one season.

So for season 2021-22: We would hopefully have:

T5: Lowland League (16 clubs)
T6: Eos Premier - WoS Premier - SoS League (this can be moved/sorted after 2022)  - (45-48 clubs)
T7: EoS First - Wos First (32 clubs)
T8: EoS Second (with poss. N/S split if over 20 clubs) - WoS Second (Ayrshire/Central loose split) (48-64 clubs)

As for the North, it might take a bit longer but that seems an easier fit:

T5: Highland League (16 clubs)
T6: North East Premier (16 clubs) - North Caledonian League (12 clubs)
T7: North East First - Grampian (14 clubs) and Tayside (12 clubs)
T8: North East Second - Grampian (12 clubs)

[Doonhamer1969]

2 hours ago, Robert James said:

Scotland's geography shouldn't be used as a 'stick' against any  remote clubs, whether they are in the south, the north, or the islands..

I entirely agree .

As I said , SoS geography shouldn't go against it .

I apologise if it seems I was having a go at the  NCL.

The main points were that if it can be at Tier 6 for geographical reasons , which I have absolutely no objection to , so can the SoS, and that the rush that some on here advocate to demote the  SoS appears hypocritical  given the relative strengths of the SoS and NCL.

[Doonhamer1969]

3 hours ago, Robert James said:

 

The Highlands and Islands of Scotland have had a record level of rainfall from January to March this year.  Orkney FC have to cross to the mainland by ferry, as do the clubs going in the opposite direction to the Isles. The ferry doesn't run when the weather/sea  is atrocious.  It is to the credit of the NCL that its administration (in adversity) is excellent. And who told you that they were made to play twice on the same day ? 

When I was a player, on two occasions, I played in 2 league games on the same Saturday.

By the way, I am also a supporter of the SoSL remaining as a separate pyramid feeder league at Tier 6.  Scotland's geography shouldn't be used as a 'stick' against any  remote clubs, whether they are in the south, the north, or the islands.. These clubs may not win many future playoffs to the lowland or the highland  leagues, but that isn't a reason to exclude them from trying.

 

Ps I wasn't aware of the record level of rainfall .

[Doonhamer1969]

3 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

Did they promote into tier 4?

They were for all intents and purposes Tier 5.

[Doonhamer1969]

3 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

Did they promote into tier 4?

Deliberately obtuse .

[Doonhamer1969]

2 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

Mostly because the League is in the South WEST of Scotland 

Galloway is.

Mids,Uppers and Lochmaben  are practically slap bang in the middle .

[Doonhamer1969]

2 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

"They did right by the pyramid" by a bunch of their clubs applying to join the LL and tacking themselves on as tier 6 because they happened to be a senior league as opposed to a junior league?

They shouldn't step aside. No one should step aside or be demoted or anything like that. The purpose of a pyramid is so teams can find their level. A pyramid gets wider as it goes down the way. There's room for more regional football if that's what a club's level is. That's not at step 6 when you have a much larger league by number of clubs, population or geographic area at the same tier which has a geographic overlap with the SoS.

I wish no harm to the SoS teams - they are run by hard working volunteers who want to enjoy their football and see their teams succeed. That's commendable, but it doesn't mean they should be a small regional league of amateur teams at step 6 in our pyramid structure.

I actually agree with a lot of that .

However , it's not an amateur league ,it's a mixture of semi pro and amateur, and as I said before ,there is barely any geographical overlap .

[San Starko Rover]

10 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Galloway is.

Mids,Uppers and Lochmaben  are practically slap bang in the middle .

So let them choose East or West, still doesn't justify a separate league for a handful of clubs in a small area of the country.  Bottom line there is no need for 3 feeder leagues to the Lowland League.  

[Doonhamer1969]

22 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

Why are so many people obsessed with the South of Scotland League, can we just focus on getting the West, and North sorted first before we obsess over the minutiae of SoS League?

On the conference format, I personally would like to see:

Top 16  in 2020-21 qualify for Tier 6, 17-32 "relegated" to Tier 7 with the remaining teams "relegated" into two loosely regionalised conferences of 16 at Tier 8. Relegating clubs by 4 divisions seems quite extreme for one season.

So for season 2021-22: We would hopefully have:

T5: Lowland League (16 clubs)
T6: Eos Premier - WoS Premier - SoS League (this can be moved/sorted after 2022)  - (45-48 clubs)
T7: EoS First - Wos First (32 clubs)
T8: EoS Second (with poss. N/S split if over 20 clubs) - WoS Second (Ayrshire/Central loose split) (48-64 clubs)

As for the North, it might take a bit longer but that seems an easier fit:

T5: Highland League (16 clubs)
T6: North East Premier (16 clubs) - North Caledonian League (12 clubs)
T7: North East First - Grampian (14 clubs) and Tayside (12 clubs)
T8: North East Second - Grampian (12 clubs)

Pretty good , except you need 4-6 new clubs to fill Tiers 7 and 8 in the North.

[Doonhamer1969]

2 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

By definition it's not "tier 5" if it was not part of the pyramid structure. The whole point in tiers of a football pyramid is that there is movement between them vertically based on merit in an integrated structure.

There was no moving down a level. They continued to exist as a league outside of the pyramid. Then the SoS joined the pyramid at tier 6. The SoS League has never been above tier 6 in the pyramid.

I will say it again - I do not want these clubs to drop down any levels or be demoted. They should be merging with the WoS and participating in conferences at tier 6 next season IMO.

Why are people so wedded to "they were in fae the start!"? The Junioristas on here got panned for the Grade chat. This SoS being bastions of the pyramid and unable to be questioned or discussed in a grown up way is analogous to Gradeism.

Ermm.... We ARE discussing it.

Nobody suggested it couldn't be discussed.

[Doonhamer1969]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

13 braves reserves and bonnyton dont 

Ahh. Was forgetting they are no longer at Annan. Doh !

[Doonhamer1969]

2 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

Gretna were EOSFL 

Yes, but as they are in D&G they should/would relegate into SoS, unless it is arranged/stated otherwise.

[Doonhamer1969]

2 hours ago, G4Mac said:

I never said anything about the sosfl being regional, the regional set up is in place already....hence why we have an sos, eos and wos divide in the lowland area, step 6 is where that regional divide happens already, I didn't choose that to be the case the equal players in tbe process did (collective agreement - which is what would be required to change it, not pie and bovril)

I have no in depth knowledge of the sosfl standards or in fact what their clubs aspirations are in the short, medium and longer term, but what I will say is that they bought into the pyramid at its inception and should maintain their spot at tier 6, they dont do any harm where they are.

You have a differing point of view, I dont think they tacked on anywhere, they became involved in the pyramid when the sjfa didn't (in actual fact downright undermining it at every chance they could to make their own product sound and look better) at its inception, they and the eos weakened their individual products to get the pyramid going.....therefore they did right by the pyramid.
 

Exactly.

As the existing EoS unselfishly welcomed 26 new clubs in one go into their league, knowing full well it would lead to a many of them being demoted at least tier (it ended up being ALL of them), to get a proper pyramid established, the SoS haven't obstructed the creation of a WoS, again knowing full well it will harm their chances of Tier 5 football.

[Doonhamer1969]

18 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

So let them choose East or West, still doesn't justify a separate league for a handful of clubs in a small area of the country.  Bottom line there is no need for 3 feeder leagues to the Lowland League.  

As I've said, I'm not saying it does justify it.

I just think its not an immediate concern right now.

Get the WoS up and running, get a pyramid set up North of the Tay then look at the status of the SoS later.

Its not causing a problem, the future of the Tayside juniors etc is more pressing IMHO.

 

[Black Pennel]

Can I just point out to those few "new" readers who are involved with current SoSL clubs who have been popping in to this thread recently that most of the people (as far as I can judge) who are calling for the league to be somehow "demoted" as a result of the formation of a WoSFL do not actually appear to have anything to do with any of the current West Juniors, East Juniors, or former East Juniors now in the EoS league.

This clamouring for changed status for the SoSL (and picturing it as coming from within the junior, and former junior ranks) is clearly just internet forum bollox.

 

[Guest]

Can I just point out to those few "new" readers who are involved with current SoSL clubs who have been popping in to this thread recently that most of the people (as far as I can judge) who are calling for the league to be somehow "demoted" as a result of the formation of a WoSFL do not actually appear to have anything to do with any of the current West Juniors, East Juniors, or former East Juniors now in the EoS league.
This clamouring for changed status for the SoSL (and picturing it as coming from within the junior, and former junior ranks) is clearly just internet forum bollox.
 

Very, very well put sir.

Carry on

[Doonhamer1969]

2 minutes ago, Black Pennel said:

Can I just point out to those few "new" readers who are involved with current SoSL clubs who have been popping in to this thread recently that most of the people (as far as I can judge) who are calling for the league to be somehow "demoted" as a result of the formation of a WoSFL do not actually appear to have anything to do with any of the current West Juniors, East Juniors, or former East Juniors now in the EoS league.

This clamouring for changed status for the SoSL (and picturing it as coming from within the junior, and former junior ranks) is clearly just internet forum bollox.

 

I honestly hadn't noticed anyone claiming or inferring that it was coming from supporters of West Junior clubs.

Its mostly coming from a Falkirk supporter.