Junior football, what is the future?

[stanley]

6 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

All that inside info and you can't even spell their names correctly...

No inside info - but not sure how Threave wanting to drop down from the LL a few years ago means they wouldn't want to join the WOS - sure it's more travel than the SOS, but it's less than if they were to get promoted to the LL.

I don't think them dropping out of the LL is conclusive proof that they wouldn't want to go to the WoS but they've dropped out of the EoS and LL over the years and that makes me think they are less likely to move to the WoS.  It suggests to me that they are happy to play in a more local league.  I could see SoS clubs linking up if it involved the SoS being incorporated into the WoS in the lower tiers and being promoted up into a wider geographical area but I don't think many of them would like to leap from mostly D&G to non-geographical conferences where they will be travelling to Ayshire, Glasgow etc. every second week.

[Guest]

"Aye but that's the way it's always been!" is the sort of attitude the Juniors got panned for.

Are you kidding on? They bought into the pyramid at its inception, they weakened their own league and dropped a level for the good of the pyramid and have deservedly fought out for promotion ever since.

You seem to want to gloss over that which cannot be glossed over.

They cause no harm in being where they are, they dont convolute the process, if a south region team gets licensed, wins their league then wins the playoff, they deserve promotion to the LL.

Just because there is a wosfl now doesnt mean the sosfl have to go anywhere or join any other league. There is no requirement for the sosfl to change anything as they dont create an issue where they are, they most likely solve one for current sosfl clubs playing in the LL.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

No inside info - but not sure how Threave wanting to drop down from the LL a few years ago means they wouldn't want to join the WOS - sure it's more travel than the SOS, but it's less than if they were to get promoted to the LL.

People tend to forget with everything that's changed. Threave Rovers plan was to come back into the Lowland League. They spent a couple of seasons as the whipping boys, accepted relegation as a chance to rebuild and refresh the team with some winning ways. Come back up as a a reasonably decent team to challenge for mid table.

This was summer 2016 the Lowland League would be filled to 16 teams, the Juniors weren't interested and the EoSFL had been gutted of most of their licenced clubs. It would of been a relatively clear pathway back to the Lowland League. The problem was in the two seasons it took to get a winning team together. They would enter a playoff against the Kelty buzzsaw.

[Marshmallo]

2 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Are you kidding on? They bought into the pyramid at its inception, they weakened their own league and dropped a level for the good of the pyramid and have deservedly fought out for promotion ever since.

Was the SoS ever a tier 5 league? How did the SoS weaken their own league?

These are genuine questions btw because I feel like I must be missing something obvious.

[honestman54]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

People tend to forget with everything that's changed. Threave Rovers plan was to come back into the Lowland League. They spent a couple of seasons as the whipping boys, accepted relegation as a chance to rebuild and refresh the team with some winning ways. Come back up as a a reasonably decent team to challenge for mid table.

This was summer 2016 the Lowland League would be filled to 16 teams, the Juniors weren't interested and the EoSFL had been gutted of most of their licenced clubs. It would of been a relatively clear pathway back to the Lowland League. The problem was in the two seasons it took to get a winning team together. They would enter a playoff against the Kelty buzzsaw.

But why would they want to leave the SOS now for the WOS whilst currently top and may find that an easier route back?

Edited April 2, 2020 by honestman54

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, honestman54 said:

But why would they want to move from the SOS now whilst currently top and may find that an easier route back?

I'm not saying they do. Don't think i've seen them suggested either. I'm pointing out why they accepted relegation when they didn't have to. The idea that it was down purely to travel doesn't cover it. They never planned to hide away in the SoS with their tail between their legs. Otherwise they never would of signed up for the LL in the first place.

They'd become the whipping boys, needed to change their approach. Back in the SoS would be an easier time to rebuild and they had a fairly open pathway back into the Lowland League now that it was locked into a SoS v EoS Playoff.

[Stag Nation]

10 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Was the SoS ever a tier 5 league? How did the SoS weaken their own league?

These are genuine questions btw because I feel like I must be missing something obvious.

Before the LL was formed, there were three senior leagues below/outside the Scottish League - HL, EoSL and SoSL.  All tier 5 by definition - there was no lower tier.

[sweep]

38 minutes ago, glensmad said:

4 hours ago, sweep said:

You are wrong Lugar Boswell thistle put their application in at the meeting at East kilbride.   When the question was asked at the end of the meeting (Have any club applied) The answer was one. That one was Lugar who were the first team to apply

It's really good to see you so keen and positive about joining the pyramid, as you were very sceptical a few weeks ago. At least next season you'll have a visit from (probably) at least four current Premiership teams to set your finances up for the season.

Will there be a next season? Are you party to the timescale of the lock down?

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Exactly.

The creation of the Lowland League already dropped the SoS a tier. They should , on strength of the league, drop another tier, but there are other priorities.

1. Get the WoS up and running.

2. Sort out a pyramid in the north of the country.

When important stuff like that is sorted, the position of the SoS in the pyramid can be examined, iis not crucial.

it's more than a bit rich folk talking about the NCL, who cant organise a 16 game league season without making Orkney play twice on the same day, a Tier 6 feeder league ,while suggesting the SoS , a well run league for many decades, should suddenly drop down below that level to make way for West Juniors, some of whom are vehemently anti pyramid and are only joining the WoS reluctantly.

"

 

The Highlands and Islands of Scotland have had a record level of rainfall from January to March this year.  Orkney FC have to cross to the mainland by ferry, as do the clubs going in the opposite direction to the Isles. The ferry doesn't run when the weather/sea  is atrocious.  It is to the credit of the NCL that its administration (in adversity) is excellent. And who told you that they were made to play twice on the same day ? 

When I was a player, on two occasions, I played in 2 league games on the same Saturday.

By the way, I am also a supporter of the SoSL remaining as a separate pyramid feeder league at Tier 6.  Scotland's geography shouldn't be used as a 'stick' against any  remote clubs, whether they are in the south, the north, or the islands.. These clubs may not win many future playoffs to the lowland or the highland  leagues, but that isn't a reason to exclude them from trying.

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Robert James
typo error

[Marshmallo]

10 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

Before the LL was formed, there were three senior leagues below/outside the Scottish League - HL, EoSL and SoSL.  All tier 5 by definition - there was no lower tier.

Did they promote into tier 4?

[Guest]

Was the SoS ever a tier 5 league? How did the SoS weaken their own league?

These are genuine questions btw because I feel like I must be missing something obvious.

The sos and eos were equal leagues within the non league game prior to the inception of the LL. They and the eos were essentially moved down in the pecking order at the formation of the LL and they committed their own teams to the LL at its inception, therefore they moved down a level and weakened their own league to furnish the LL with clubs to allow it to start.

 

All this when the current incoming clubs turned their nose at the very idea and mention of Scottish professional football's pyramid.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Did they promote into tier 4?

You know they didn't.

[Lowland team]

36 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

All that inside info and you can't even spell their names correctly...

I also have no inside info - but not sure how Threave wanting to drop down from the LL a few years ago means they wouldn't want to join the WOS - sure it's more travel than the SOS, but it's less than if they were to get promoted to the LL.

Does it really matter the spelling at this point you certainly know who i meant.not here to argue with anyone but what or who give's you the right again at any point to say clubs and league's should be denied their right to play at teir 6 as they have openly stated they would except new clubs into their league.can we just not be happy at least we have some movement from the west.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, sweep said:

Will there be a next season? Are you party to the timescale of the lock down?

No way of knowing for sure but there comes a point where a pandemic virus starts to run out of new people to infect that haven't already had it and built up some immunity, so it's not going to last forever. The peak for western Europe is probably not that far off. This season is almost certainly a goner but next season is unlikely to be a complete wipeout. The conferences will give the WoS plenty of flexibility on how many games to attempt to play

[Marshmallo]

8 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

10 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Did they promote into tier 4?

You know they didn't.

So how can we say they were tier 5 leagues and lowered themselves a level if there was no pyramid in place?

[Guest Mr Happy]

No way of knowing for sure but there comes a point where a pandemic virus starts to run out of new people to infect that haven't already had it and built up some immunity, so it's not going to last forever. The peak for western Europe is probably not that far off. This season is almost certainly a goner but next season is unlikely to be a complete wipeout. The conferences will give the WoS plenty of flexibility on how many games to attempt to play

The virus will dictate, not humans. Pointless trying to second guess this horrible killer.

[Guest]

So how can we say they were tier 5 leagues and lowered themselves a level if there was no pyramid in place?

I could tell you were going here three posts ago.

 

In the set up at the time they were. They did right by the pyramid that was being put in place and deserve to remain tier 6. They cause no harm to anyone sitting where they sit right now, they dont stop anyone playing or gaining promotion. If their champion wins the playoff, after winning their league, they will deserve to play in the LL.

 

Are they meant to now step aside because 'the better teams are here', if they are so far below the level why do they need to move. If they are that irrelevant then they will not beat any west or east champion, so they arent causing anyone any harm where they are.

 

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

How does the SOS teams being part of the WOS provide a glass ceiling? They are in the South West of Scotland, if they covered the SOS they would include the East border teams, in reality they are a D&G  league and they're not at tier 6 on merit they're at tier 6 because they bought in early to the pyramid.  How many SOS teams are in the LL I count two one of which is based in Motherwell and I doubt will want to play in D&G league once the WOS is established if they're relegated.  By all means leave them where they are but what scored do you think we'll see when Bo'ness and Talbot play the SOS champions, what was Kelty's score 7-0 & 4-0

 

2 hours ago, craigkillie said:

It creates an enormous jump between Tier 5 and Tier 6 in that area. I don't think it's too farfetched to have the slightly bigger South clubs like Threave Rovers competing (or being eligible to compete) in a West of Scotland League as a buffer between the South of Scotland and the Lowland League.

I understand the reasons for keeping the SoS as a Tier 6 league right now, but I think it does have to be reassessed at some point down the line, especially if Scottish Cup entry and entry to other competitions end up being tied to which tier you're in (as I think they really should be).

And why the assumption that the SoS would feed the WoS anyway, not the EoS? That's not something that's been the case before. The SoS area is a distinct area - six of its clubs are around or east of Dumfries. Journey times from Dumfries to:

Hurlford 1hr 21

Pollok 1hr 34

Beith 1hr 46

Kilwinning 1hr 38

Girvan 1hr 45

Cumbernauld 1hr 31

----

Penicuik 1hr 28

Blackburn 1hr 33

Camelon 1 hr 38

Crossgates 1hr 58

 

There's not much in it.

 

[Stag Nation]

9 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

So how can we say they were tier 5 leagues and lowered themselves a level if there was no pyramid in place?

This is an utterly pointless argument, but I will indulge you.

Pre-LL, the Sos and Eos were at the only level of senior football below the SFL. Whether you called that "Tier 5", "Tier X"  or anything else was and is irrelevant, because there was no pyramid.

In those days, when vacancies occurred in the SFL, clubs from the EoS (e.g. Ferranti Thistle) and SoS (e.g. Gretna) could apply and were accepted. [Or indeed clubs from neither, like Clydebank.]

With the establishmant of the pyramid  they cannot, so they have de-facto moved down a level.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Stag Nation said:

This is an utterly pointless argument, but I will indulge you.

Pre-LL, the Sos and Eos were at the only level of senior football below the SFL. Whether you called that "Tier 5", "Tier X"  or anything else was and is irrelevant, because there was no pyramid.

In those days, when vacancies occurred in the SFL, clubs from the EoS (e.g. Ferranti Thistle) and SoS (e.g. Gretna) could apply and were accepted. [Or indeed clubs from neither, like Clydebank.]

With the establishmant of the pyramid  they cannot, so they have de-facto moved down a level.

Gretna were never a SoSFL side. Gretna 2008 were never a SoSFL side.

Gretna reserves were for a couple of seasons though.