Junior football, what is the future?

[AlanCamelonfan]

I think we should use this time to restructure Scottish Football as a whole something like this would be a lot better and tidy it up and still keep people happy with 4 old firm games and starting to regional further down

SPFL Premiership 38 games ( play each team twice. League split of 8 to give 7 games plus Derby match) Bottom 3 relegated

1	Celtic
2	Rangers
3	Motherwell
4	Aberdeen
5	Livingston
6	Hibernian
7	St. Johnstone
8	Kilmarnock
9	St. Mirren
10	Ross County
11	Hamilton Academical
12	Heart of Midlothian
13	Dundee Utd
14	Inverness CT
15	Dundee FC
16	Ayr United

SPFL Championship 34 Games (18 teams play each other twice. Top 2 promoted. 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th Promotion playoffs) 4 teams relegated to respective North and South

1	Dunfermline Athletic
2	Arbroath
3	Morton
4	Alloa Athletic
5	Queen of the South
6	Partick Thistle
7		Raith Rovers
8		Falkirk
9		Airdrieonians
10		Montrose
11		East Fife
12		Dumbarton
13		Clyde
14		Peterhead
15		Forfar Athletic
16		Stranraer
17		Cove Rangers
18		Edinburgh City

16 Team North League 2 up to Championship and 3 relegated to National Division 1.

 

Brora Rangers FC

Inverurie Loco Works FC

Fraserburgh FC

Rothes FC

Buckie Thistle FC

Formartine United FC

Forres Mechanics FC

Nairn County FC

Keith FC

Wick Academy FC

Deveronvale FC

Huntly FC

Strathspey Thistle FC

Turriff United FC

Elgin City

Brechin City

 

North Division 1 5 teams plus 11 applications to make up North Division 1 above Tay line (Aim to get licensed within 5 years) Bottom 3 replaced by licensed champion from each

Clachnacuddin FC

Lossiemouth FC

Fort William FC

Golspie Sutherland (Licensed)

Banks O'Dee (Licensed)

 

Below this North Caledonian League, North Juniors and Tayside League. unlicensed

 

 

16 team South league

 

Cowdenbeath

Queen's Park

Stirling Albion

Annan Athletic

Stenhousemuir

Albion Rovers

Kelty Hearts

Bonnyrigg Rose

East Stirlingshire

BSC Glasgow

Spartans

Civil Service Strollers

East Kilbride

Caledonian Braves

Cumbernauld Colts

University of Stirling

 

South League Division 1 (6 plus 10 Licensed clubs by Application)

Gala Fairydean

Berwick Rangers

Gretna

Edinburgh Uni

Dalbeattie Star

Vale of Leithen

Below This would be West of Scotland League (wrsjfa and SOSFL and Glasgow Uni Using conferences initially to set up a Divisional structure possibly regionalised at 2nd or third league ) and East of Scotland League ( EOSFL current premier with tops teams from division 1 to make it 16 with conferences below including current ersjfa south)

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Reading over 20-odd pages and trying to summarise the "compromise" (all under the presumption the league actually finishes this season. Coronavirus based factors are excluded for the moment)

The WJR will come over in its current format but be renamed the WoSFL and be a senior league. Clubs will remain junior "members" but not pay the fines/reinstatement fees but will still have access to the Junior Cup but it's not mandatory.
Any non-league team in the WoSFL not currently in the Juniors will be able to join the juniors to also have access to the Junior Cup but, again, not mandatory (both these compromises are dependent on the SJFA changing their rules to allow it but, for now, I will presume that gets the OK).
If a non-Junior team is relegated to the WoSFL they will not need to join the SJFA to play in the league.
If a non-Junior team, now or in future, applies to join the WoSFL they will not need to join the WRJFA.
If a Junior side is promoted to the LL, or higher, they will not need to relinquish SJFA membership.
All sides have to enter the SCC and this, and the Scottish Cup, take precedence over the Junior Cup.
Any clubs currently in Tier 6 moving to the WoSFL (Bonnyton Thistle being the obvious one) would be parachuted into Tier 6 but not at the expense of anyone currently at that level.
Any clubs currently outside the pyramid moving into the WoSFL will start at the bottom tier.

If I've got this correct then any arguments against seem a bit childish and petty this moment to be honest.

The main ones being "it's not fair on clubs that want to remain junior" - this argument seems to come from the same people that have been telling junior clubs and fans for three years that moving to the senior league wont change anything apart from the name of "the grade". It also seems these junior clubs have done, as all clubs had to do at one point, and compromise. If they're happy with the scenario, or grudgingly accept it, why does it bother others?
Another is "why do they get to remain junior when they're senior" - again this argument is coming from the same folk who said the name of the grade didn't matter. So who cares? Honestly. Junior clubs still get to call themselves junior, if it means so much to them, but makes no difference. They're happy and they're completed the pyramid and it makes no difference to non SRJFA members at the same level.
The other argument seems to be about the Junior Cup itself and letting it die. Again this is no different from other cups such as the Renfrewshire Cup, Fife Cup, Aberdeenshire Shield. It wont take precedence over league or the "main" cup fixtures and for any bleating about how it will affect fixtures: that remains the clubs decision. All clubs decision. I saw someone say it's a bit unfair if, say, Talbot become a League One club and play Colony Park. That's unfair as it is at the moment. Talbot will win that in any case. Is it equally unfair that Morton play against amateur clubs in the Renfrewshire Cup?

I mean this seems like a win/win for everyone. We get the full pyramid in place below the Tay. Junior clubs keep their cup and get to remain junior members if they want and it doesn't negatively impact clubs that don't.
 

Edited March 16, 2020 by AsimButtHitsASix

[santheman]

Never going to happen.

[glensmad]

27 minutes ago, santheman said:

Never going to happen.

On the contrary, I think it is very possible.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 minute ago, glensmad said:

On the contrary, I think it is very possible.

I think he was referring to the post above mine

[santheman]

9 minutes ago, glensmad said:

On the contrary, I think it is very possible.

Was talking about Alan’s plans for an enlarged SPL. 

Didnt  want to quote it again 

Edited March 16, 2020 by santheman

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Charlie4 said:

Hearing wee bits of chatter that whitburn are now thinking of going to the EOS, dont know how true this is.

...and finally keep an eye out for low flying flocks of pigs in the southern parts of West Lothian later this afternoon that could make driving conditions on the M8 treacherous at times.

[Pyramidic]

42 minutes ago, santheman said:

Never going to happen.

Please explain why. It is pointless making bland statements without justification.

[santheman]

1 minute ago, Pyramidic said:

Please explain why. It is pointless making bland statements without justification.

Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas 

Is that good enough for you

[Blue White Dynamite]

Not sure if I read this on here or heard it suggested elsewhere, but could there be an idea to retain the Junior Cup but change its purpose?

In the East you currently have the Alex Jack Cup, in the South you have the Alba Cup, the winners of these then play off for the South and East Shield, the winner entering the Scottish Cup.

Rather than set up an equivalent cup in the new West setup, could you merge the Junior Cup, Alex Jack Cup and Alba Cup and limit it to all sides not participating in the Scottish Cup?

It gives ‘inter-region’ cup ties and the winners could still qualify for the Scottish Cup for the following season? It can be played on Scottish Cup dates much like the Alex Jack is now.

Keep the Junior Cup name but it now IS literally a Junior Cup in relation to the Scottish Cup.

Just an idea, not sure if it would get much traction.

[Pyramidic]

1 minute ago, santheman said:

Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas 

Is that good enough for you

Sorry was confused which post you were referring to.

AsimButtHitsASix summary above seems very reasonable but I think on second reading you were referring to the post by Alan.

[santheman]

1 minute ago, Pyramidic said:

Sorry was confused which post you were referring to.

AsimButtHitsASix summary above seems very reasonable but I think on second reading you were referring to the post by Alan.

I was

No problem that’s what happens when you take your eye off here for more than 5 seconds

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, glensmad said:

Ok, so here's the question. With serious doubts now about whether this season will finish or not, surely when the LL-WoSFL gets going it now just has to be tier 6 conferences for everybody , in the interest of fairness ?

We are going to have all sorts of clubs across the West Region with perceived injustices if the season is finished now, regardless of how they decide to do it. So surely conferences is now the only way to settle who plays at what level in the new league starting from next season.

There wouldn't really be any need to finish this season if it is agreed to go with conferences, and we all call this season quits right here and now.

Your thoughts ? (I don't expect everyone to agree.)

Assuming the current season's matches are not completed, I agree that conferences will be required for the new West pyramid league, as there are difficulties in retaining the hierarchical/divisional status quo.  My reasons for supporting conferences are :.

* IF it is recommended that all of the WRJFA Premiership clubs join the new West league, en bloc, there will be an argument  as to whether or not those junior clubs, who currently occupying the  relegation positions, should still be assimilated at Tier 6., or alternatively be placed' at Tier 7 instead (as below) 

*  HOWEVER , the junior clubs currently occupying the Championship promotion positions, would probably argue that they should replace the bottom 2 (or 3) Premiership clubs who currently occupy the bottom 2 (or 3) premiership positions.

* IN both scenarios, clubs with games in hand, who would otherwise, still have the chance of gaining promotion (or conversely) of avoiding relegation, could have a viable claim over those clubs who are currently above/below them, especially if they have played fewer matches (so far)

* ALSO the amateur clubs who have expressed an interest in joining the new West league (and may already have applied) would be adversely  effected, especially as it was suggested earlier (by the WRJFA) that Bonnyton (currently at Tier 6 in the SoSL) and Glasgow Uni (current full SFA Members,) should be added to Tier 6, increasing the number of premiership clubs from 16 to 18.

The above is complicated, and controversial., but needs to be addressed asap, in case (as is likely) the rest of the 2019/20 will be wiped out/expunged.

What if anything, do the SLL/WRJFA rules state, when a season isn't completed ? (1939/40 precedent ?). Does 2019/20 automatically become void ? 

These are difficult questions, so Conferences would at least level the playing field for 2020/21.

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Robert James
typo error

[BigBadBassRock]

If all over-70s are going to be kept indoors for four months who will be running the junior clubs and their associations during that time?

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 minute ago, BigBadBassRock said:

If all over-70s are going to be kept indoors for four months who will be running the junior clubs and their associations during that time?

I think all the contributors to this thread will be allocated one in a random draw

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Reading over 20-odd pages and trying to summarise the "compromise" (all under the presumption the league actually finishes this season. Coronavirus based factors are excluded for the moment)

The WJR will come over in its current format but be renamed the WoSFL and be a senior league. Clubs will remain junior "members" but not pay the fines/reinstatement fees but will still have access to the Junior Cup but it's not mandatory.
Any non-league team in the WoSFL not currently in the Juniors will be able to join the juniors to also have access to the Junior Cup but, again, not mandatory (both these compromises are dependent on the SJFA changing their rules to allow it but, for now, I will presume that gets the OK).
If a non-Junior team is relegated to the WoSFL they will not need to join the SJFA to play in the league.
If a non-Junior team, now or in future, applies to join the WoSFL they will not need to join the WRJFA.
If a Junior side is promoted to the LL, or higher, they will not need to relinquish SJFA membership.
All sides have to enter the SCC and this, and the Scottish Cup, take precedence over the Junior Cup.
Any clubs currently in Tier 6 moving to the WoSFL (Bonnyton Thistle being the obvious one) would be parachuted into Tier 6 but not at the expense of anyone currently at that level.
Any clubs currently outside the pyramid moving into the WoSFL will start at the bottom tier.

If I've got this correct then any arguments against seem a bit childish and petty this moment to be honest.

The main ones being "it's not fair on clubs that want to remain junior" - this argument seems to come from the same people that have been telling junior clubs and fans for three years that moving to the senior league wont change anything apart from the name of "the grade". It also seems these junior clubs have done, as all clubs had to do at one point, and compromise. If they're happy with the scenario, or grudgingly accept it, why does it bother others?
Another is "why do they get to remain junior when they're senior" - again this argument is coming from the same folk who said the name of the grade didn't matter. So who cares? Honestly. Junior clubs still get to call themselves junior, if it means so much to them, but makes no difference. They're happy and they're completed the pyramid and it makes no difference to non SRJFA members at the same level.
The other argument seems to be about the Junior Cup itself and letting it die. Again this is no different from other cups such as the Renfrewshire Cup, Fife Cup, Aberdeenshire Shield. It wont take precedence over league or the "main" cup fixtures and for any bleating about how it will affect fixtures: that remains the clubs decision. All clubs decision. I saw someone say it's a bit unfair if, say, Talbot become a League One club and play Colony Park. That's unfair as it is at the moment. Talbot will win that in any case. Is it equally unfair that Morton play against amateur clubs in the Renfrewshire Cup?

I mean this seems like a win/win for everyone. We get the full pyramid in place below the Tay. Junior clubs keep their cup and get to remain junior members if they want and it doesn't negatively impact clubs that don't.
 

 

Try not to label people/clubs as petty and childish who hold a different view.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Try not to label people/clubs as petty and childish who hold a different view.

Try not to get too upset at everyone pointing and laughing at your heid's gone moment but, c'mon then, what reasonable argument is there aside from pettiness?

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Try not to get too upset at everyone pointing and laughing at your heid's gone moment but, c'mon then, what reasonable argument is there aside from pettiness?

Is there really any need for that kind of attitude?

[AsimButtHitsASix]

6 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

what reasonable argument is there aside from pettiness?

 

Just now, Burnie_man said:

Is there really any need for that kind of attitude?

Is there really any need for dodging the question?

Let's be honest you have been very vociferous in your arguments against the Juniors and, 90% of the time, have been bang on the money but as soon as anyone disagrees with you, on any topic, you are not above insults yourself. You've failed to actually state what you have against this compromise apart from "juniors bad".

[Burnie_man]

Just now, AsimButtHitsASix said:

 

Is there really any need for dodging the question?

Let's be honest you have been very vociferous in your arguments against the Juniors and, 90% of the time, have been bang on the money but as soon as anyone disagrees with you, on any topic, you are not above insults yourself. You've failed to actually state what you have against this compromise apart from "juniors bad".

I think what you have written and concluded is wrong, and there is pages and pages worth of debate on here for you to understand why.

What isn't needed is playing the man instead of the ball.  Disagree by all means, a great many people do, but try and keep it civil.

We may have another 5 months without any football.