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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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10 hours ago, Shannon said:

With no senior football to talk for a few weeks about maybe a sports journalist will do a decent well.researched article on the pyramid in Scotland or is that too much to ask emoji848.png......

Wouldn't call myself a journo, but I will be writing another article on the whole process (talks, new structure etc) to come out next weekend most likely.

I'm also chasing up a strong rumour with regards the Tayside question...

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Surely his whole approach has been make sure, if possible, that the small clubs like Muirkirk and Saltcoats are not left out of the West of Scotland League. Maybe I'm just a glass half full guy[emoji848]

SJFA membership and Junior Cup seems to = Junior Football. His whole approach has been about keeping the grade alive.
 
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30 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Is it a grade once there are no fines, reinstatements and permits? All it is a national cup competition at that point 

When the Highland League joined the pyramid, each club was required (individually) to sign a contract. There was some hesitation by a few clubs, but they all signed in the end.

I assume that if the 'compromise' requires all of the West juniors to join the WoSFL, then I would expect the clubs individually, to have to sign a contract now. IMO, the wording of this West contract must include the legal clauses that protect the integrity of the pyramid, as drawn up by the Lowland League, including rules about future promotion & relegation (including play-offs to Tier 5), the exclusion of reinstatement, permits, and the other SJFA rules & regulations, which are not compatible with those currently operated in the SLL.  They should be endorsed by the SFA.

I would also expect that the Lowland League will  protect, any non-junior/amateur clubs who wish to join the WoSFL  in 2020/21, and will decide how their WoSFL integration will be determined for next season.

If some clubs want to continue to enter the Scottish Junior Cup, so be it. But this should not be compulsory.

Without any agreement by 23rd March, the SLL should revert to its original proposal, and immediately invite clubs to submit applications, in accordance with its earlier "Statement".

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Just now, archieb said:

So you regard what has happened in the East as an unmitigated success, which you'd like to see mirrored in the West  do you?

Creating a rump set of traditionalist left-behind still-Juniors isolated from their near-neighbours who are slowly deciding to dribble across to the promised land of the pyramid?

Wouldn't it have been so much better if the situation in the East could have been resolved in a one stage of amalgamation involving all the ERSJFA clubs instead of having this chaotic  slow trickle in Fife, the lost land of West Lothian and Tayside in Limbo?

And is it really so undesirable that the West clubs should try to find a way to avoid something like that?

It's been an unmitigated success yes.  Clubs who moved have never looked back and really enjoyed it.  Clubs who do not want to move - as is their right - have continued as is.  Interesting the term "promised land" is used, that's what Pyramid detractors normally decribe it as.

If west clubs want to come over en-masse as every single club thinks the Pyramid is the way forward then great but....

Do you believe all 63 clubs are fully engaged with moving and want to move? the evidence suggests not.

If they are, why the need to remain SJFA members and not fully break the ties? clubs in the east did not feel that was a show stopper.

If not, why are the clubs not being given the choice to remain Junior? Must you all think the same or be damned?

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7 minutes ago, Mystic Blastie said:

Surely his whole approach has been make sure, if possible, that the small clubs like Muirkirk and Saltcoats are not left out of the West of Scotland League. Maybe I'm just a glass half full guyemoji848.png

There's nothing to suggest that if they bothered to apply that those clubs would be rejected. Quick look at NLS and there doesn't seem to anything obviously wrong with their grounds that wouldn't meet the criteria.

Saying they would get left behind or rejected is just scaremongering.

EDIT: Also if it was just an approach to get all 63 clubs into the WOSFL. Why is there any need for retaining SJFA membersip or playing in the Junior Cup?

Edited by FairWeatherFan
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26 minutes ago, Cornishman said:

Commenting again, from some distance away. I am truly neutral in this discussion. No axes to grind!

When the English Amateur Cup ceased, it was replaced by the FA Trophy & FA Vase. Both reasonably successful competitions, now with ±50 years of tradition behind them.
Similarly (but, obviously in reverse) the SC & Junior Cups should be 'retired' and most definitely replaced with a national Scottish FA Trophy. Early Rounds can definitely be contested in Regional Groups, becoming random draw at say, the 'Round of 32'. Create 8 Regions ~ Highland/Grampian; Tayside; Fife; West-Central; Mid-Central; East-Central; South-West & Borders. Four from each Region get into those random draw later Rounds.

By all means allow ex-Juniors to retain membership in the SJFA if they wish, however, The Juniors, much like the British Commonwealth, is an anachronistic idea and shouldn't henceforth really be perceived as 'a club' like The Rotarian Society.

 

Sounds like a positive suggestion.

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3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It's been an unmitigated success yes.  Clubs who moved have never looked back and really enjoyed it.  Clubs who do not want to move - as is their right - have continued as is.  Interesting the term "promised land" is used, that's what Pyramid detractors normally decribe it as.

If west clubs want to come over en-masse as every single club thinks the Pyramid is the way forward then great but....

Do you believe all 63 clubs are fully engaged with moving and want to move? the evidence suggests not.

If they are, why the need to remain SJFA members and not fully break the ties? clubs in the east did not feel that was a show stopper.

If not, why are the clubs not being given the choice to remain Junior? Must you all think the same or be damned?

You really DO have a blinkered view of this don't you.

Of course you see the move to EoSL as having been a success for YOUR club and those that moved with it, but try opening your eyes to what was left behind. THAT is where the chaos was and still is and that is what compromise and negotiation in the West can hopefully avoid.

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3 minutes ago, archieb said:

You really DO have a blinkered view of this don't you.

Of course you see the move to EoSL as having been a success for YOUR club and those that moved with it, but try opening your eyes to what was left behind. THAT is where the chaos was and still is and that is what compromise and negotiation in the West can hopefully avoid.

By the way, to be clear, I 100% put the blame for the shambles in the East at the door of the SJFA and especially its top brass

Edited by archieb
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Guest Mick Kennedy

Surely we should embrace the fact all parties are once again in positive dialogue are willing to find a solution for all clubs to have access to the pyramid.

When I attended the WOSJ meeting on Tuesday night it was positive meeting, clubs wanted to ensure they had an opportunity to access the pyramid, but also didn’t want to leave clubs behind or vulnerable behind who wished not to progress.

What was proposed on the night and what clubs agreed to as part of the signed declaration seemed to have some chance of being implemented if the LL,EOS, SOS and SFA agreed to the proposal.

I would assume at the PWG meeting on Thursday, where there was more positive discussions then more compromises may have to be agreed going forward. But seems to be light at the end of the tunnel, as all parties want to find a solution. 

Hopefully we can find a way forward where ambitious clubs can progress, and the clubs with no aspirations to progress still have a level of football that is in demand, sustainable and keeps the communities at the heart of their clubs. 

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You'd have to ask them. The West Lothian clubs could be playing the exact same clubs and local rivals but chose not to do that. Even with the threat of the majority of West Region Juniors leaving the SJFA to join the WoSL as it was originally mooted they decided they wanted to remain Junior with access to a much depleted Junior cup and with no chance of progression. There may be well be clubs in the West who feel the same.
For the West Lothian clubs remaining junior has been more important to them. Seems bizzare to me to be honest. However letting them retain junior membership while playing in the EOS gives a solution to that.
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1 minute ago, archieb said:

You really DO have a blinkered view of this don't you.

Of course you see the move to EoSL as having been a success for YOUR club and those that moved with it, but try opening your eyes to what was left behind. THAT is where the chaos was and still is and that is what compromise and negotiation in the West can hopefully avoid.

LOL dear me, if there is anything I'm not is blinkered.  Perhaps try looking at the bigger picture and wonder why so many Junior clubs willingly left the SJFA.  The clubs left behind chose to do so, do you understand that? their free choice, they still have over 2 weeks to apply for next season. Their CHOICE, nobody is forced to do something they don't want.

You're still not answering any of the questions I posed. Where is the CHOICE in the west? is every single club willing to move?

Another thing, when is the SJFA EGM to approve any of this, same with WRJFA? none of this can move forward until that point. After 31st March per chance?

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2 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

For the West Lothian clubs remaining junior has been more important to them. Seems bizzare to me to be honest. However letting them retain junior membership while playing in the EOS gives a solution to that.

There's no solution required. They join or they don't join, and SJFA membership is left at the door.  I don't actually think that is what is really stopping them anyway.

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You really DO have a blinkered view of this don't you.
Of course you see the move to EoSL as having been a success for YOUR club and those that moved with it, but try opening your eyes to what was left behind. THAT is where the chaos was and still is and that is what compromise and negotiation in the West can hopefully avoid.


It can. But there are still clubs among the ‘chaos’ who don’t want to join the EoS, as Burnie points out. Burnies point is that clubs should be allowed to choose.

The chaos you’ve referred to is obvious and evident to most of us but there are still clubs that are actively choosing not to join the EoS despite the situation for 2020-21 being much better ( in terms of where you would start) than may have been expected in year 3.

So if clubs right in the heart of the East utopia can still decide that it’s not for them, why can’t teams in the west have the opportunity to do the same?
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1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

...You're still not answering any of the questions I posed. Where is the CHOICE in the west? is every single club willing to move? ...

Only a couple of months back you were urging the west region clubs to do pretty much exactly what they are trying to do now through Option W.

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You really DO have a blinkered view of this don't you.

Of course you see the move to EoSL as having been a success for YOUR club and those that moved with it, but try opening your eyes to what was left behind. THAT is where the chaos was and still is and that is what compromise and negotiation in the West can hopefully avoid.

 

Playing devils advocate, who are we to call it chaos when it is the will of the club's who haven't moved?

 

They have decided it's not for them and they are happy with that choice. If they ever change their mind, the door is open to make a different choice.

 

But the key there is that it's their choice.

 

I think that's what Burnie is arguing is being removed in the West, for any teams who dont want to move over, like there are in the East. They have had their ability to choose for themselves removed.

 

I kinda agree with that if I'm honest.

 

Personally, I would love to see all club's move over, but I would also prefer they all felt they are doing it through their own choosing, rather than maybe something they are being forced into and they come into with a negative outlook because of that.

 

One of the biggest benefits of our experience so far in the pyramid in the East is that every cub who is there is engaged in driving things forward, because they all bought into the move. There's a real feeling that it's a collective responsibility to make it work because that's what we all chose.

 

Would be a shame if there were club's going over in the West feeling like they've been strong armed so don't have that engagement.

 

Hopefully that's not the case, but I can see why it would be a concern.

 

I think the major positive is that we'll have something in the West for next season and that in itself is a huge step forward. If what that is takes longer to evolve than it had on the East, at least it's there.

 

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1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Only a couple of months back you were urging the west region clubs to do pretty much exactly what they are trying to do now through Option W.

And they totally bombed it out the window, and last year, and before that, they even chucked in a dose of racism.  Why the change of heart?

The LL have a very workable plan and should stick to it, no compromises, no baggage, fresh start.

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There's nothing to suggest that if they bothered to apply that those clubs would be rejected. Quick look at NLS and there doesn't seem to anything obviously wrong with their grounds that wouldn't meet the criteria.
Saying they would get left behind or rejected is just scaremongering.
EDIT: Also if it was just an approach to get all 63 clubs into the WOSFL. Why is there any need for retaining SJFA membersip or playing in the Junior Cup?
I'm not saying I agree with all aspects of the proposal. I actually get fed up of one side saying we will still be Juniors and the other side saying we will be Seniors. We will be neither. We will all be football clubs and that's what counts. The main crux of what needed to be done was to persuade all WJFA clubs to join the Pyramid or be left in limbo. Agree this should have been sorted out before. The threat of Clydebank and the Buffs saying f**k the wee clubs "we're off" meant someone had to take the bull by the horns. Hats off to the LL for being willing to compromise when as was correctly said on here, they didn't really need to. Obviously George Fraser has a better understanding of the situation than many on here who's main agenda is humiliating Junior football.
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15 minutes ago, archieb said:

You really DO have a blinkered view of this don't you.

Of course you see the move to EoSL as having been a success for YOUR club and those that moved with it, but try opening your eyes to what was left behind. THAT is where the chaos was and still is and that is what compromise and negotiation in the West can hopefully avoid.

I've tried engaging him a few times this morning and been blanked.

It's become very clear today that this isn't about football for him. He doesn't care what's best for clubs, it's about winning an argument on the internet. In his mind it's two sides at war and everything on one side is bad. Pretty pathetic.

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Surely we should embrace the fact all parties are once again in positive dialogue are willing to find a solution for all clubs to have access to the pyramid.

When I attended the WOSJ meeting on Tuesday night it was positive meeting, clubs wanted to ensure they had an opportunity to access the pyramid, but also didn’t want to leave clubs behind or vulnerable behind who wished not to progress.

What was proposed on the night and what clubs agreed to as part of the signed declaration seemed to have some chance of being implemented if the LL,EOS, SOS and SFA agreed to the proposal.

I would assume at the PWG meeting on Thursday, where there was more positive discussions then more compromises may have to be agreed going forward. But seems to be light at the end of the tunnel, as all parties want to find a solution. 

Hopefully we can find a way forward where ambitious clubs can progress, and the clubs with no aspirations to progress still have a level of football that is in demand, sustainable and keeps the communities at the heart of their clubs. 

This is part of the concern for me. Clubs signed a declaration essentially outlining the terms under which they would agree to join the pyramid. It's not exactly a commitment to the pyramid is it? It's a here is what we want to join, and we get to keep what we think we should keep....

 

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1 minute ago, Mystic Blastie said:
20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
There's nothing to suggest that if they bothered to apply that those clubs would be rejected. Quick look at NLS and there doesn't seem to anything obviously wrong with their grounds that wouldn't meet the criteria.
Saying they would get left behind or rejected is just scaremongering.
EDIT: Also if it was just an approach to get all 63 clubs into the WOSFL. Why is there any need for retaining SJFA membersip or playing in the Junior Cup?

Obviously George Fraser has a better understanding of the situation than many on here who's main agenda is humiliating Junior football.

Providing a baggage free, new start, independent WoSFL is not humliating anyone, providing clubs with a choice of what league to play in is not humiliating anyone.

Nice spin though.

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