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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Not so much a poor league, but sitting outside the pyramid makes its prospects seem bleak.

There must be a way to get them all on board.

Sadly, if some of them are afraid of change it can have a knock-on effect on some (not all) others. Then those clubs stagnate. Real shame. 

Edited:

How to get them on board?

The EoS has kept the door open again so the East Junior clubs can still move at Tier 7, if they apply before the end of March. In 12 months time it could be entry at  Tier 9. It may even be too late then if there are no longer any spare places in the EoS i.e. all places taken/all divisions filled up. 

The West Lothian clubs may try looking to the west i.e. to the rump West region Juniors but what sort of standard would that give them? Also they might be faced with travelling to the west coast.

Edited by Dev
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52 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Just so we've got this right. From the very start of the pyramid discussions the SJFA were in the driving seat if they wanted to be. They could have basically shifted their entire league system over. They might have had to make a joint East/West Super Duper League at the top. They might have had to get a few Tayside clubs to move North. They'd have had to find a place in their own system for the SoS, NCL and EoS leagues or amalgamate them in but, by and large, a few (minor) concessions here and there and they would have had the run of all the non-league. They didn't bother and spent a decade ripping the pish out of the leagues that were set up.

The EoS league? Gave up all their best teams. For a while it was nothing but a glorified amateur league dangerously close to single figures. Same for the SoS. They did make sacrifices to get it up and running. The EoS (a member ran league) were also happy to not only allow junior clubs to come in en masse, making their own chances of progression slimmer, they went out of their way to let them come in as complete equals. They could have created an EoS First Division and let the better teams bottleneck and take advantage and never. The SoS, too, has been happy to let clubs come in and make the possibility for progression of their better teams drop. They're supporting a WoS league despite the fact it will see them lose clubs and, let's be honest, increases the chances of them dropping a tier in the future.

Now the EoS and SoS are helping set up a WoS league. They're, again, diluting their members own chances of progression. They're diluting their chances of Scottish Cup runs and prize money. They're bending over backwards to get something in place for teams from the West Coast to have the same opportunities they've been granted and fought for. Of course it's not entirely altruistic and I'm sure Tynecastle and Tweedmouth are enjoying bigger crowds and all the other benefits a greater pool of opposition has created but they've been able to bend and negotiate and make sacrifices and make efforts to improve the game at their level and collectively improve all clubs in their league, even the new Junior refugees, ahead of only caring about themselves.

And now, at the very last minute, some Junior blazers SUDDENLY decide it's time to act, when they've lost all their bargaining power they once had, and are being told that they can't just make demands and expect everyone to acquiesce they're claiming it's bullying?

It's like a bunch of weans deciding to have a game of fitba and one wean wanting to play rugby. That wean spends all their time slagging off everyone else for playing fitba before realising he's got no-one else to play with and demanding to join the fitba game but only on the condition he's still allowed to pick up the ball and run with it.

Yeah but someone called me ignorant online so now I think that every club in the West of Scotland should have no access to progression.

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10 minutes ago, Dev said:

I believe that there's no rules which state that a league cannot accept clubs from the other side of the Tay Bridge line. However, any clubs playing on the other side of the line will have issues if they wish to move up to the Lowland League or the Highland League upon winning the league championship.

Means Tayport can play in the Highland Pyramid but cannot be promoted to the Highland League. Similarly Luncarty could play in the EoS but couldn't play in the Lowland League. This probably wouldn't make any difference to either club unless they have ambitions to play at Tier 5 or higher.

Agree, having reviewed both the current pyramid agreements, there is no wording which would stop a club applying and the EOS from accepting a club North of the Tay, but they wouldn't be able to promote from the EOS into the LL under the current agreement. Although interestingly they could apply for an SFA licence if in the EOS despite being North of the Tay. However given the wider discussion about geographical integrity I dont think it likely the EOS would accept a team north of the Tay, and more likely the EOS would point them to the HL. Nothing to stop a club testing the model and apply though, as the HL, LL, and EOS, would then be obliged to go back with a joined up response to the club. Even if that is just to clarify/restate the model.

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3 minutes ago, morley said:

Agree, having reviewed both the current pyramid agreements, there is no wording which would stop a club applying and the EOS from accepting a club North of the Tay, but they wouldn't be able to promote from the EOS into the LL under the current agreement. Although interestingly they could apply for an SFA licence if in the EOS despite being North of the Tay. However given the wider discussion about geographical integrity I dont think it likely the EOS would accept a team north of the Tay, and more likely the EOS would point them to the HL. Nothing to stop a club testing the model and apply though, as the HL, LL, and EOS, would then be obliged to go back with a joined up response to the club. Even if that is just to clarify/restate the model.

I guess, in theory, with nothing below the HL as it stands, exceptions could be made. Lochee, as an example, could be allowed to join the EoS under the agreement if they do win they go into the HL and not the LL. Would be the same effect as a non-licensed EoS winner and the SoS winner would go straight up (if licensed)

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1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Just so we've got this right. From the very start of the pyramid discussions the SJFA were in the driving seat if they wanted to be. They could have basically shifted their entire league system over. They might have had to make a joint East/West Super Duper League at the top. They might have had to get a few Tayside clubs to move North. They'd have had to find a place in their own system for the SoS, NCL and EoS leagues or amalgamate them in but, by and large, a few (minor) concessions here and there and they would have had the run of all the non-league. They didn't bother and spent a decade ripping the pish out of the leagues that were set up.

The EoS league? Gave up all their best teams. For a while it was nothing but a glorified amateur league dangerously close to single figures. Same for the SoS. They did make sacrifices to get it up and running. The EoS (a member ran league) were also happy to not only allow junior clubs to come in en masse, making their own chances of progression slimmer, they went out of their way to let them come in as complete equals. They could have created an EoS First Division and let the better teams bottleneck and take advantage and never. The SoS, too, has been happy to let clubs come in and make the possibility for progression of their better teams drop. They're supporting a WoS league despite the fact it will see them lose clubs and, let's be honest, increases the chances of them dropping a tier in the future.

Now the EoS and SoS are helping set up a WoS league. They're, again, diluting their members own chances of progression. They're diluting their chances of Scottish Cup runs and prize money. They're bending over backwards to get something in place for teams from the West Coast to have the same opportunities they've been granted and fought for. Of course it's not entirely altruistic and I'm sure Tynecastle and Tweedmouth are enjoying bigger crowds and all the other benefits a greater pool of opposition has created but they've been able to bend and negotiate and make sacrifices and make efforts to improve the game at their level and collectively improve all clubs in their league, even the new Junior refugees, ahead of only caring about themselves.

And now, at the very last minute, some Junior blazers SUDDENLY decide it's time to act, when they've lost all their bargaining power they once had, and are being told that they can't just make demands and expect everyone to acquiesce they're claiming it's bullying?

It's like a bunch of weans deciding to have a game of fitba and one wean wanting to play rugby. That wean spends all their time slagging off everyone else for playing fitba before realising he's got no-one else to play with and demanding to join the fitba game but only on the condition he's still allowed to pick up the ball and run with it.

This in a nut shell. The junior associations held most of the cards in the past but were too stubborn and demanding to make it work. Whether that sbaotage was intentional or not, who knows. Their position has become weaker and weaker to the point where now they don't have a position of strength but some people still think they should be able to call all the shots and have things exactly how they want it.

The LL/EoSL/SoSL are still prepared to offer a fair shake for any club who wants to take part in the pyramid but that still isn't good enough for some junior folk.

The pyramid is in place, clubs see the advantages of joining. We've witnessed the not so slow death of junior football in the East of Scotland. Any junior clubs who don't think the same thing will happen in the West are kidding themselves on. Some degree of compromise is required. It's fairly clear that the creation of the WoSFL will be led by member decisions, like it has been in the East but they won't be kowtowing to the petulant demands of the so-called bigger clubs.

Edited by Gordon EF
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4 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I guess, in theory, with nothing below the HL as it stands, exceptions could be made. Lochee, as an example, could be allowed to join the EoS under the agreement if they do win they go into the HL and not the LL. Would be the same effect as a non-licensed EoS winner and the SoS winner would go straight up (if licensed)

The EoS have not been accepting applications from north of the Tay Bridge boundary, so Lochee are probably in limbo in pyramid terms at the moment given Tayside clubs have not been part of the recent north pyramid negotiations. 

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3 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I guess, in theory, with nothing below the HL as it stands, exceptions could be made. Lochee, as an example, could be allowed to join the EoS under the agreement if they do win they go into the HL and not the LL. Would be the same effect as a non-licensed EoS winner and the SoS winner would go straight up (if licensed)

Yes I wondered about that aswell. Problem if do that though as mentioned many times in this thread is the precedent it creates and where do you stop. Lets remember it wouldn't just be a Tay line precedent set in that scenario, it would then also set a precedent between the new west pyramid, EoS, and the SoS, boundary lines once they are drawn. If they need to be drawn something again discussed on here many times. 

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22 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I guess, in theory, with nothing below the HL as it stands, exceptions could be made. Lochee, as an example, could be allowed to join the EoS under the agreement if they do win they go into the HL and not the LL. Would be the same effect as a non-licensed EoS winner and the SoS winner would go straight up (if licensed)

…. but this would block an EoS South of Tay Bridge club from a play-off place.

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12 minutes ago, morley said:

Yes I wondered about that aswell. Problem if do that though as mentioned many times in this thread is the precedent it creates and where do you stop. Lets remember it wouldn't just be a Tay line precedent set in that scenario, it would then also set a precedent between the new west pyramid, EoS, and the SoS, boundary lines once they are drawn. If they need to be drawn something again discussed on here many times. 

You could argue it's an exceptional case with nothing below the HL as it stands but it looks like that will be sorted soon enough anyway

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2 minutes ago, Dev said:

…. but this would block an EoS South of Tay Bridge club from a play-off place.

Highest placed South of Tay club takes the EoS play off place?

As I said above it will all be immaterial soon enough anyway when the North Juniors/NCL are in place in Tier 6

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22 minutes ago, morley said:

Agree, having reviewed both the current pyramid agreements, there is no wording which would stop a club applying and the EOS from accepting a club North of the Tay, but they wouldn't be able to promote from the EOS into the LL under the current agreement. Although interestingly they could apply for an SFA licence if in the EOS despite being North of the Tay. However given the wider discussion about geographical integrity I dont think it likely the EOS would accept a team north of the Tay, and more likely the EOS would point them to the HL. Nothing to stop a club testing the model and apply though, as the HL, LL, and EOS, would then be obliged to go back with a joined up response to the club. Even if that is just to clarify/restate the model.

Yes "geographical identity" is the LL's mantra for the West, and has already been adhered to in the East.

However the Luncarty/Tayport situation may challenge the boundary principle/rule ?

******

As an aside,  Brechin may not finish the season as Club 42.  The current situation is :

Albion Rovers   26 - 24   (10 games to play,including Cove once, & Edinburgh City twice)

Brechin City       27 - 17  (9 games to play, but 'easier' fixtures 'on paper')

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52 minutes ago, The Ilford Drummer said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Can see this run til June as Petrie doesn't seem to have the desire or balls to prevent it.

Prevent what?

Never mind desire or balls, what power does he have to prevent anything of note?

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1 hour ago, The Ilford Drummer said:
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Can see this run til June as Petrie doesn't seem to have the desire or balls to prevent it.

The SFA AGM has nothing to do with this debate, as opposed to what Ronney falsely claims. There could be clarity very soon, if the LL make clear on Thursday that they are not going to agree to the WRJFA plan (and I expect they will do that), the WRJFA plan is not going to happen and it will then very obvious the WoSFL is going to be the only route into the pyramid for west clubs.

Edited by Marten
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4 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

Prevent what?

Never mind desire or balls, what power does he have to prevent anything of note?

Didn't he delay the Junior Cup draw once as he had to finish his lunch before it could be made.

Oh sorry, you said of note and the JC hasn't been that for a couple of years now.

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1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

It's not entirely true.   When Whitburn refused to join the new Superleague, they spent 2 or 3 seasons trying to get promoted into it, when they eventually did they finished second and third in consecutive seasons from memory, then mid table-ish, then the decade long decline began.

Not convinced the refusal to join Superleague has much to do with their eventual decline, apart from giving an insight into how their committee run the club and were asleep at the wheel during the decline.

Make that "5" seasons burnie that they were out with the newly formed super league before they got promoted into it,after refusing to join it when it was first set up !!!

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1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Highest placed South of Tay club takes the EoS play off place?

As I said above it will all be immaterial soon enough anyway when the North Juniors/NCL are in place in Tier 6

Guessing that the North region Juniors may come into the Pyramid as you say. It would have to be as a new Senior League though.

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12 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Make that "5" seasons burnie that they were out with the newly formed super league before they got promoted into it,after refusing to join it when it was first set up !!!

Was it that long? shows you what an inspired decision it was......

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2 hours ago, Dev said:

Sadly, if some of them are afraid of change it can have a knock-on effect on some (not all) others. Then those clubs stagnate. Real shame. 

Edited:

How to get them on board?

The EoS has kept the door open again so the East Junior clubs can still move at Tier 7, if they apply before the end of March. In 12 months time it could be entry at  Tier 9. It may even be too late then if there are no longer any spare places in the EoS i.e. all places taken/all divisions filled up. 

The West Lothian clubs may try looking to the west i.e. to the rump West region Juniors but what sort of standard would that give them? Also they might be faced with travelling to the west coast.

Im sure the EoS would create a fourth league to accommodate the remaining East Juniors in 2021, albeit at Tier 9 as you say.

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https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/lanarkshire-junior-football-chiefs-fear-21665812

The usual every sentence is a  paragraph from the Record. A weird mention of tier 7, apparently years of uncertainty with WOS conferences despite the fact that the WRJFA don't seem to have a plan to integrate the non-Juniors, and an absurd mention of the SPFL for a club like Bellshill.

And of course if you don't want to be one of the 18 left behind, then simply move over to the WOS...

Quote

Lanarkshire junior football chiefs fear 'years of uncertainty' ahead of SJFA and Lowland League 'tier six' crunch talks

Clubs have expressed concerns cover the new direction that the local junior game could be heading in to Lanarkshire Live Sport.

Junior football supremos in Lanarkshire fear they could be plunged into years of uncertainty as a result of the West of Scotland League proposal, a source has revealed.

The future of the non-league game is up in the air ahead of two crunch meetings this week amid talks of a new ‘tier six’.

The Lowland League last week revealed that they had received “51 expressions of interest” from “various grades of football” in their proposals.

Clubs will be told the minimum qualification standards to join the new set-up at a meeting this Thursday.

West Region chiefs will have the chance to outline their case for the future of the junior ranks with a second round of key talks tonight.

Lanarkshire Live Sport understands a tier seven is also set to be put forward and that clubs will need floodlights to earn license to have any chance of moving into the Lowland League and therefore League Two.

A senior source within the Lanarkshire junior sides claims this proposal does not require prior approval by the SFA.

They add that the SFA is understood to have called a ‘partial’ meeting of the Pyramid Working Group this Thursday.

In a statement released to Lanarkshire Live Sport , they said “the majority of clubs will be hedging their bets and considering both proposals very carefully.”

The said: “The current four division West Region structure has been arrived at after many years of competition with the pecking order of clubs well established and the Premiership division recognised as being extremely competitive.

“Depending on what arrangements are proposed by the Lowland League, their proposal could well create several years of uncertainty until a new pecking order is properly established.”

Bellshill club secretary Brian Closs says they have expressed an interest but admitted the SPFL was “a long way off” for the League One outfit.

However, the he fears teams who do not follow the new plan could be forced to go back to the old Lanarkshire Junior Football League format – which collapsed leaving many local sides folding or being merged.

He claims to have spoken to other sides across the area who share their concerns about moving into a new era.

“The danger would be that you get left behind if everyone moves,” he said.

“If there are 51 teams who expressed an interest, say 45 of them are from the current West Region juniors, that is leaving 18 teams behind.

“Do you want to be one of the 18 teams that are left behind? Is it going to be like the old Lanarkshire leagues and then your club becomes defunct after one or two years?

“I think it’s an unfair situation and it’s dragged in for far too long.

“Our old chairman told me there won’t be a junior league in a few years and that seems to be the way it’s heading.”

East Kilbride Thistle secretary Martin Sutherland confirmed that the Jags have “submitted a notice of interest in the new West of Scotland League as proposed by the Lowland League.”

However, he said this did not mean they were in any rush to leave the junior grade as they await to hear what proposals mean for the Jags: “The SJFA West Region also have plans for a new West of Scotland League and there is a meeting for all clubs at Hampden on Tuesday night prior to the Lower League meeting on Thursday.

“Only after hearing both propositions can all clubs be in a position to discuss what direction they wish to take.”

A Shotts Bon Accord spokesperson said “at this moment in time the club has not decided on where we see our future as yet” as the Championship challengers weigh up their future.

They continued: “Once we have had more information from the relevant parties we will be having a meeting with our members and our management team to see where we could be playing.”

They added: “We are already part of an organisation that has a proud history.”

Wishaw Juniors committee member Alex Young said the club had “declared an interest” in both meetings and were still leaving their options open.

He notes that the club have “put their faith” in club secretary Robert Watson to make the decision for the League One strugglers.

However, Airdrie juniors Gartcairn were keen to join the pyramid.

A spokesman for Cairn said it has always been the clubs ambition to join the SPFL pyramid “so we expressed an interest some time ago” with chairman Alex McDowall attending both meetings this week.

Cumbernauld United, Kilsyth Rangers and Blantyre Victoria will be sending a representative to both meetings before the club vote on proposals.

It is also understood that League Two outfit Newmains United have not been involved in any discussions so far.

Rutherglen Glencairn have previously declared their interest in moving into the West of Scotland League.

Edited by Ginaro
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