Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

21 minutes ago, Killiepiyo said:

That is something i'd want to know as soon as possible. Based on that, the more information the WOSL can bring to those listening the better, would speculate this will be key information in terms of the actual running proposals for your larger supported clubs.

I think it is inevitable that there will be questions (and answers) about the merits and disadvantages of  conferences -v- a vertical structure  . Existing West Juniors have no experience of conferences, and its potential impact on attendances, costs, and player recruitment, will be relevant. Some clubs may make their decision to apply (or not to apply) on the answers they receive from the officials, regarding the structure format for 2020/21.

However this will be about information sharing, as no final 'structural'  decision can be made until the total number of applications is known. 

Personally, I would prefer a conference structure, although I accept that I am biased as a GUFC supporter !!  

Edited March 9, 2020 by Robert James
additional question added

[Guest Moomintroll]

What is with folks tendancy to attriubute things on here? Folk so wrapped up with the hate not seeing the whole bloody picture. That is an actual situation that will likely occur, How that is addressed is key to getting clubs and fans on board.

I have zero issues with you & have been involved with Junior Football since I was about 5 years old, I know that the grade is finished & I want Talbot to knock the likes of Cove Rangers out the park as I am a parochial Ayrshire Boy at heart, I just wish the people who can actually represent and help their clubs will realise the inevitable truth and do likewise.

[archieb]

2 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

The clubs wont in the first season. As I said which you keep ignoring the 13 eosfl.clubs decided the 26 incomers didnt

But this time ALL the clubs will be incomers, so there are no incumbents to be given that sort of priority.

The accepted applicants must make any necessary decisions about the format of a new WoSL

[Killiepiyo]

11 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I think it is inevitable that there will be questions (and answers) about the merits and disadvantages of  conferences -v- a vertical structure  . Existing West Juniors have no experience of conferences, and its potential impact on attendances, costs, and player recruitment, will be relevant. Some clubs may make their decision to apply (or not to apply) on the answers they receive from the officials, regarding the structure format for 2020/21.

However this will be about information sharing, as no final 'structural'  decision can be made until the total number of applications is known. 

Personally, I would prefer a conference structure, although I accept that I am biased as a GUFC supporter !!  

Yes can imagine pal, thanks for your response. I think that would be a test of how member oriented the proposals will be. Imagine most would want to be going back to supporters which some assurances as to the vision. Suspect number of fixtures etc will be important but until you know the number it cant be confirmed but can perhaps say if X amount apply this would be the preferred arrangements or similar. I think the worst position to be in would be a take it or leave burnie style approach as I dont personally see that as being constructive.

[Killiepiyo]

9 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

45 minutes ago, Killiepiyo said:

What is with folks tendancy to attriubute things on here? Folk so wrapped up with the hate not seeing the whole bloody picture. That is an actual situation that will likely occur, How that is addressed is key to getting clubs and fans on board.

I have zero issues with you & have been involved with Junior Football since I was about 5 years old, I know that the grade is finished & I want Talbot to knock the likes of Cove Rangers out the park as I am a parochial Ayrshire Boy at heart, I just wish the people who can actually represent and help their clubs will realise the inevitable truth and do likewise.

I didnt think you did have issues with me, I just really think if there ever was a time to leave fallouts in the past and let cooler heids prevail, it's now.

My inbox would make most people sad as appears some are letting personal grievances get the better of them and its affecting clubs and supporters in lots of different ways.

The absolute worst thing imo is for people to make decisions out of fear or bullying so lets all get as much information as possible from both meetings and even if theres things not agreeable, talk without being called stupid, backwards, dinosuar, traitor, conspirator etc. 

Lots of things no right in Scottish football but decent chance here of getting something good on the go, however that may look/be set up moving forward.

[San Starko Rover]

There is zero chance a club like Talbot will not move to a new WOSFL and risk being left behind by their rivals.  Lets say for arguments sake they did stay and exactly what happened in the east happens in the West.  half the teams in WRJFA move to WOSFL, Talbot stay in a weakened WRJFA as the teams who've moved are replaced by lower standard Junior teams.  The second year a few more clubs move to the WOSFL Talbot now have the choice of staying in an ever weakening WRJFA or joining WOSFL at Tier 7 the following year Tier 8 etc.  Every team that moves to WOSFL will improve their league and weaken the WRJFA it wouldn't be long before Talbot started to lose players to teams they formally dominated and by the time they moved and played their way through the Tiers of weak teams there's a good chance they would never manage to overtake some of the other former Juniors.  Talbot are a well run club and will defiantly move to ensure they're not left behind.  Any club who turns down the WOSFL will face death by a thousand cuts as they get weaker season on season look what's left in the ERJFA and bear in mind the Tayside teams are only there as they've nowhere else to go.    

[cmontheloknow]

7 hours ago, Killiepiyo said:

He was asking what I thought, Like to remind folk that I'm not the sjfa nor have any connection to them.  While I'm being accused of having some mad agenda, I'm concerned  the hatred on display here is beyond seething. That makes me think that any negation would have arguably been futile so it seems lazy to say it's all one parties fault. 

You don't grasp the politics of the situation, and people are exasperated. The SJFA refused to engage with the PWG over its history and refused to engage with the LL when it formed, even threatening clubs with 4 division relegation if they returned, and publically scorning Kelty at the AGM for leaving. And now you want a level negotiating field? You are either highly naive or idealistic, not sure which. The people running the show have completely blown it for their own members, but the saddest thing is the members have enabled it. I wouldn't send the turkey to the kitchen to cook christmas dinner.

[Guest Moomintroll]

I didnt think you did have issues with me, I just really think if there ever was a time to leave fallouts in the past and let cooler heids prevail, it's now.
My inbox would make most people sad as appears some are letting personal grievances get the better of them and its affecting clubs and supporters in lots of different ways.
The absolute worst thing imo is for people to make decisions out of fear or bullying so lets all get as much information as possible from both meetings and even if theres things not agreeable, talk without being called stupid, backwards, dinosuar, traitor, conspirator etc. 
Lots of things no right in Scottish football but decent chance here of getting something good on the go, however that may look/be set up moving forward.

Can't argue with any of that.

[Guest]

That is something i'd want to know as soon as possible. Based on that, the more information the WOSL can bring to those listening the better, would speculate this will be key information in terms of the actual running proposals for your larger supported clubs.

They cant decide that until all applications are submitted, counted and verified. The LL and eosfl are renowned for involving clubs in decisions regarding their leagues (look at the eosfl conference vote this season for proof).

 

What you will find is they will have multiple options for clubs to vote on. If you are a club in the top league you will vote to stay as such, however, if you are in the lower leagues you will most likely vote for conferences (if there are enough teams).

 

If the number of lower division clubs outweigh the number of top division clubs and the voting works this way then conferences will be what happens. That's the really nice thing about the LL, sosfl and eosfl, they arent traditional in any way, they wont be swayed by one club over another, they allow their members to choose the way forward. Its refreshing actually.

 

So the current top junior sides are left with a decision, join and potentially play conferences for one season and get to the LL or top wosfl after one year or dont join and remain junior. However, if the entire west bottom division join and form a single tier 6 west league and gain promotion to the LL after year one, clubs shouldnt find it a surprise. The LL led wosfl will happen, it is now a matter of when and what teams will be playing in the chosen format.

[Doonhamer1969]

7 hours ago, archieb said:

But this time ALL the clubs will be incomers, so there are no incumbents to be given that sort of priority.

The accepted applicants must make any necessary decisions about the format of a new WoSL

Exactly.

[Doonhamer1969]

7 hours ago, Robert James said:

I think it is inevitable that there will be questions (and answers) about the merits and disadvantages of  conferences -v- a vertical structure  . Existing West Juniors have no experience of conferences, and its potential impact on attendances, costs, and player recruitment, will be relevant. Some clubs may make their decision to apply (or not to apply) on the answers they receive from the officials, regarding the structure format for 2020/21.

However this will be about information sharing, as no final 'structural'  decision can be made until the total number of applications is known. 

Personally, I would prefer a conference structure, although I accept that I am biased as a GUFC supporter !!  

^This.

[cmontheloknow]

5 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

There is zero chance a club like Talbot will not move to a new WOSFL and risk being left behind by their rivals.  Lets say for arguments sake they did stay and exactly what happened in the east happens in the West.  half the teams in WRJFA move to WOSFL, Talbot stay in a weakened WRJFA as the teams who've moved are replaced by lower standard Junior teams.  The second year a few more clubs move to the WOSFL Talbot now have the choice of staying in an ever weakening WRJFA or joining WOSFL at Tier 7 the following year Tier 8 etc.  Every team that moves to WOSFL will improve their league and weaken the WRJFA it wouldn't be long before Talbot started to lose players to teams they formally dominated and by the time they moved and played their way through the Tiers of weak teams there's a good chance they would never manage to overtake some of the other former Juniors.  Talbot are a well run club and will defiantly move to ensure they're not left behind.  Any club who turns down the WOSFL will face death by a thousand cuts as they get weaker season on season look what's left in the ERJFA and bear in mind the Tayside teams are only there as they've nowhere else to go.    

Yep any remainers need only look at the moonscape that is the ERSJFA South now (and what it will be next year). 

Armadale
Bathgate
Bo'ness Utd Juniors
Fauldhouse
Harthill
Linlithgow Rose CFC
Livingston Utd
Pumpherston
Sauchie Juniors Community
Stoneyburn
Syngenta (?)
West Calder
Whitburn

Local teams for local people. Any rump West Region SJFA will, in all probability, eventually boil down to something similar.

Tradition is such an over-romanticised concept. My tenement-dwelling ancestors of the Victorian/Edwardian era I am sure shat in a bucket in the back yard. I am sure that was the tradition on the farms before they moved to Glasgow for work. Things move on.

Edited March 10, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Doonhamer1969]

4 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

There is zero chance a club like Talbot will not move to a new WOSFL and risk being left behind by their rivals.  Lets say for arguments sake they did stay and exactly what happened in the east happens in the West.  half the teams in WRJFA move to WOSFL, Talbot stay in a weakened WRJFA as the teams who've moved are replaced by lower standard Junior teams.  The second year a few more clubs move to the WOSFL Talbot now have the choice of staying in an ever weakening WRJFA or joining WOSFL at Tier 7 the following year Tier 8 etc.  Every team that moves to WOSFL will improve their league and weaken the WRJFA it wouldn't be long before Talbot started to lose players to teams they formally dominated and by the time they moved and played their way through the Tiers of weak teams there's a good chance they would never manage to overtake some of the other former Juniors.  Talbot are a well run club and will defiantly move to ensure they're not left behind.  Any club who turns down the WOSFL will face death by a thousand cuts as they get weaker season on season look what's left in the ERJFA and bear in mind the Tayside teams are only there as they've nowhere else to go.    

For 100% clarity, if a club north of the midpoint of the Tay Bridge applied for the EoS, what would happen ?

Is there an actual rule or agreement somewhere that stops the EoS from accepting their application ?

(Bearing in mind of course that in theory, after 3 promotions then a relegation, they could find themselves in the Highland League)

I note that the Lowland League's original announcement re Notes of interest mentioned 'geographical integrity', although that was in relation to applications for the WoS obviously.

[Doonhamer1969]

7 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Yep any remainers need only look at the moonscape that is the ERSJFA South now (and what it will be next year). 

Armadale
Bathgate
Bo'ness Utd Juniors
Fauldhouse
Harthill
Linlithgow Rose CFC
Livingston Utd
Pumpherston
Sauchie Juniors Community
Stoneyburn
Syngenta (?)
West Calder

Local teams for local people. Any rump West Region SJFA will, in all probability, eventually boil down to something similar.

Tradition is such an over-romanticised concept. My tenement-dwelling ancestors of the Victorian/Edwardian era I am sure shat in a bucket in the back yard. I am sure that was the tradition on the farms before they moved to Glasgow for work. Things move on.

Have Newburgh made an announcement ?

[Doonhamer1969]

9 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Yep any remainers need only look at the moonscape that is the ERSJFA South now (and what it will be next year). 

Armadale
Bathgate
Bo'ness Utd Juniors
Fauldhouse
Harthill
Linlithgow Rose CFC
Livingston Utd
Pumpherston
Sauchie Juniors Community
Stoneyburn
Syngenta (?)
West Calder

Local teams for local people. Any rump West Region SJFA will, in all probability, eventually boil down to something similar.

Tradition is such an over-romanticised concept. My tenement-dwelling ancestors of the Victorian/Edwardian era I am sure shat in a bucket in the back yard. I am sure that was the tradition on the farms before they moved to Glasgow for work. Things move on.

Actually they stuck their arses out of the window and shat into the gutter

Blackadder-style.....

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Have Newburgh made an announcement ?

No, but they are strongly rumoured to have put in an application.

[Doonhamer1969]

11 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Yep any remainers need only look at the moonscape that is the ERSJFA South now (and what it will be next year). 

Armadale
Bathgate
Bo'ness Utd Juniors
Fauldhouse
Harthill
Linlithgow Rose CFC
Livingston Utd
Pumpherston
Sauchie Juniors Community
Stoneyburn
Syngenta (?)
West Calder

Local teams for local people. Any rump West Region SJFA will, in all probability, eventually boil down to something similar.

Tradition is such an over-romanticised concept. My tenement-dwelling ancestors of the Victorian/Edwardian era I am sure shat in a bucket in the back yard. I am sure that was the tradition on the farms before they moved to Glasgow for work. Things move on.

Whitburn?

Whats the story with them ?

I'm losing track of shifting clubs here.....

[Doonhamer1969]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

No, but they are strongly rumoured to have put in an application.

OK.

[San Starko Rover]

6 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Yep any remainers need only look at the moonscape that is the ERSJFA South now (and what it will be next year). 

Armadale
Bathgate
Bo'ness Utd Juniors
Fauldhouse
Harthill
Linlithgow Rose CFC
Livingston Utd
Pumpherston
Sauchie Juniors Community
Stoneyburn
Syngenta (?)
West Calder

Local teams for local people. Any rump West Region SJFA will, in all probability, eventually boil down to something similar.

Tradition is such an over-romanticised concept. My tenement-dwelling ancestors of the Victorian/Edwardian era I am sure shat in a bucket in the back yard. I am sure that was the tradition on the farms before they moved to Glasgow for work. Things move on.

I think a lot of the people in the West don't see the threat to their team by not moving.  The West Juniors have been dominant over the East for the last decade.  What changed? simple answer is the Lowland League was set up and the ERJFA started to lose players to the LL the West Juniors were largely unaffected.  The ERJFA never had this problem with the old EOSFL but once the Lowland League was part of the pyramid it got bigger sponsors and more media coverage and the players moved to that league in the East.  That is exactly what will happen to the rump WRJFA once the WOSFL is set up.  There's nothing wrong with not joining the WOSFL but be aware it'll negatively effect the teams who remain financially and in terms of stature.  

[San Starko Rover]

9 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

For 100% clarity, if a club north of the midpoint of the Tay Bridge applied for the EoS, what would happen ?

Is there an actual rule or agreement somewhere that stops the EoS from accepting their application ?

(Bearing in mind of course that in theory, after 3 promotions then a relegation, they could find themselves in the Highland League)

I note that the Lowland League's original announcement re Notes of interest mentioned 'geographical integrity', although that was in relation to applications for the WoS obviously.

In theory they can join the EOSFL but then couldn't be promoted.  I believe the EOSFL turned down a North of Tay application as they said it was not their area.