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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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That's a bit of a rant lol
Reinstatement is a disgrace but have heard many junior clubs and past junior clubs complain but never did anything about it. It could have been abolished yonks ago no point moaning now.
Not a rant at all, a factual counter to your erroneous argument.

We didn't moan about reinstatement and we aren't now, we already did something about it, like you said we should, that's why we don't have to pay it anymore.

Just because we did something different than you expected doesn't mean we didn't "do something".

And no one is moaning about it now, they're pointing out that not having it will be a benefit to moving to the WoS over an SJFA run league.

Again, a perfectly factual observation. It is one of the many benefits outside of just pyramid access.
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9 hours ago, clash city rocker said:

Aye but did Dunipace ever propose a vote at AGM for reinstatement to be abolished ? The clubs make the decisions , reinstatement could have been done away with yonks ago.

Well then! Maybe there's a reason why clubs in the Juniors won't stick their heads above the parapet?

Now there's a viable alternative for semi-pro/non-league clubs so they don't need to peep over the top of the wall. They can just say Bye! Bye!

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Reinstatement has absolutely zero positives for the clubs so I would wonder what stopped it ever getting scrapped? Did the management committees give some advice that abolition of it would have some other impact, like raising of fines? To misquote Tarkin from that other evil Empire, fear keeps the local systems in line! And it is fear of change that is what is being used just now. Shameful antics from those guilty.


If it was abolished it would lead to higher memberships fees we were told when we thought about proposing it.
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4 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 


If it was abolished it would lead to higher memberships fees we were told when we thought about proposing it.

Yep had to be some sort of threat to stop it going. Cheers for confirming!

Edited by cmontheloknow
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13 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

You do realise I didn't write it?  I just cut and paste the passage from the internet.  The nice thing about Wikipedia is that anyone can go on and make corrections when it is wrong.

Going back to my original point, I said something like, "As I understand it, having a functioning pyramid is a pre-requisite of UEFA funding" - We know what your interpretation is, but I don't know what the legal definition of 'pyramid' is to qualify or disbar any country from receipt of the money.  However, it is not the presence of automatic promotion or relegation and whether you need to apply to the league for permission to  move up that interests me.  It is the shape of the structure, and the proportion of professional to non-professional clubs I think is more significant when comparing other countries to ours. 

I believe we have too many clubs in the 'professional game', and that they are aligned in a column and not a pyramid.

And I'd prefer to compare with similar countries - Netherlands pop 17million , is flat, and occupies an area of land half the size of Scotland - quite different population density. 

Yes, yes, we all know you have an irrational passion for regionalisation at tier 3.

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7 hours ago, clash city rocker said:

That's a bit of a rant lol

Reinstatement is a disgrace but have heard many junior clubs and past junior clubs complain but never did anything about it. It could have been abolished yonks ago no point moaning now.

Interesting that your clubs' representative didn't try to deal with this isn't it! Maybe doesn't have the wit or imagination, let alone care enough, to come up with such an idea. Or are you saying that he did but his suggestion got kicked out at committee?

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1 hour ago, timeforchange said:

Reinstatement is their biggest income . So the clubs are the SJFA biggest sponsor. 

….. and all the time paying someone 30k per year and sitting on a huge investment bond?

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18 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Yes, yes, we all know you have an irrational passion for regionalisation at tier 3.

My submission is logical, reasonable and based on evidence from other countries. Therefore by definition it is rational, is it not?

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Guest Moomintroll
Football credentials here
image.png.d2376cc1de9b630fac2949ef4bc5a539.png
 
Sorry, I was being a bit of a dick there, I know who he is. What I cannot understand is why is he is picking this hill to die on when it is so obvious that TJ and his Pension & Redundancy payment protection strategy is all that matters, I was in the room when SR got the Fixture Secretary gig when MS got punted even though he would have done a better job because angry Central League bullies.
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3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

My submission is logical, reasonable and based on evidence from other countries. Therefore by definition it is rational, is it not?

Its not at all no. I haven't seen you make a single argument more complex than 'Croatia/Belgium/whoever else regionalise at tier 3 and got to the world cup final so we need to regionalise at tier 3 too'. That isn't evidence based. Its forcing a correlation where you have absolutely no evidence that the two are linked because you want it to be true.

Come back with actual evidence that regionalising early in any way correlates to a more succesful national team, to more youth players from the lower tiers ending up in the national team. Come back with some sort of explanation of where all the money you think clubs will save by playing in a regional set up is coming from and demonstrate that it won't just be cancelled out by lower sponsorship/prize money/gates. Until then your argument remains an irrational failure to understand that correlation doesn't equal causation and that you don't actually have any real evidence from other countries that proves the same thing would work in Scotland.

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6 hours ago, Sunrise said:

 


I just get the impression that post adds nothing to this thread...

 

I realise that you are relatively new on P&B (310 posts), but if you read back over a 1,000+ posts on this forum, you may understand the historical gulf between the juniors and the seniors, in non-league football. Matches between the two 'grades', (Armadale 'juniors' : Tynecastle 'seniors') are of interest, at a time when the future of football in the West of Scotland, is at boiling point.  

Also, if you follow this forum, you will see that another P&B contributor, highlighted this friendly match, as being of interest, probably as a comparison of the relative strengths of these 2 clubs, and possibly as a way in which Armadale may be considering their future: either by joining the pyramid, or by staying junior . Nothing wrong with either !

Apologies if my earlier post, was too difficult (or too abstract) for you. 

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2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I realise that you are relatively new on P&B (310 posts), but if you read back over a 1,000+ posts on this forum, you may understand the historical gulf between the juniors and the seniors, in non-league football. Matches between the two 'grades', (Armadale 'juniors' : Tynecastle 'seniors') are of interest, at a time when the future of football in the West of Scotland, is at boiling point.  

Also, if you follow this forum, you will see that another P&B contributor, highlighted this friendly match, as being of interest, probably as a comparison of the relative strengths of these 2 clubs, and possibly as a way in which Armadale may be considering their future: either by joining the pyramid, or by staying junior . Nothing wrong with either !

Apologies if my earlier post, was too difficult (or too abstract) for you. 

Its a friendly. All friendlies are meaningless. They're even below cup games for people trying to gauge levels of entire leagues based on two clubs in a one off game. At least cup games are competitive fixtures. With friendlies you have no idea what either side was looking to achieve (match fitness, trialists, youth players, second string players getting runs out).

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27 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

My submission is logical, reasonable and based on evidence from other countries. Therefore by definition it is rational, is it not?

Nope. It's irrational because you don't accept or consider any logic or evidence that contradicts that submission.

Flat Earthers use logic and evidence but they're irrational because they choose to ignore any logic or evidence that goes against what they want to be true.

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To be honest regarding this thread when posts are added into thread about other countries pyramid system this doesn't serve anything right now. In order to change the pyramid system will take a huge big collaboration between all parties. So personally the more important stuff on this thread is about junior teams leaving  for the pyramid or staying junior.
There are many countries whose systems  works and many whom I'm sure don't. So lets get a full system up and running including a missing WOS and then change / tweak the pyramid accordingly in the future

 

I've been looking at a few recent posts and a few people have actually said that when you come down to it, the ones for the juniors to stay don't really come up with any creditable excuse to stay, the Scottish junior cup is probably the strongest, nothing else. The excuse that many on here, forget the people who are anti junior or anti pyramid, use for reasons to join the pyramid and why it will work etc.. and the evidence is there to see and so powerful that every JUNIOR club committee including the guy at Kilbirnie are failing their club and fans if they do not look at it objectively and they really aren't looking at it objectively.  It's such a shame, my view, that these clubs are going to suffer because of certain people on each of their committees who are blinkered.

What these people have done, have really showed themselves up and its probably the correct reason why none of the other leagues want these people involved anywhere near running leagues in the pyramid as all it will do it grow criticism and resentment on each side.  Junior football is wilting away, that's a fact, it is seriously a fact as too many clubs are waking up and realising they want to be able to control their own destiny not the shelf that is produced by the junior association.

I have to add its not fair on the juniors in regards to wilting away as football is not growing in Scotland so we need change but the juniors looks as if its been deteriorating for years and has been escalating for the past couple of years in the East and now in the West and I see in the next few years there only being a few local leagues in the West, (possibly 2 divisions) and in the East, (1 division).

The youth football is in decline, has been for a long time so to be honest any junior team who don't have a youth set up collaboration is failing its club and I don't mean a party favour trade off with a player here and there getting some game time I mean a fully focused collaboration with everyone on one goal to bringing the youths through because lets face it, youths should and will be playing in all teams in 5/10/15/30 years time so the people of clubs who are blinkered, shame on you

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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7 minutes ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

Its not at all no. I haven't seen you make a single argument more complex than 'Croatia/Belgium/whoever else regionalise at tier 3 and got to the world cup final so we need to regionalise at tier 3 too'. That isn't evidence based. Its forcing a correlation where you have absolutely no evidence that the two are linked because you want it to be true.

Come back with actual evidence that regionalising early in any way correlates to a more succesful national team, to more youth players from the lower tiers ending up in the national team. Come back with some sort of explanation of where all the money you think clubs will save by playing in a regional set up is coming from and demonstrate that it won't just be cancelled out by lower sponsorship/prize money/gates. Until then your argument remains an irrational failure to understand that correlation doesn't equal causation and that you don't actually have any real evidence from other countries that proves the same thing would work in Scotland.

Not sure why you are you bringing in the national team argument again.  I'm talking about improving the football league structure from top to bottom, and regionalising earlier will do that. 

We have done the same thing over and over again without much success and I think making changes will make football better for supporters and for clubs, and ultimately more attractive to sponsors.  We currently have 4 leagues of 12 and 10 teams playing each other 4 times a season - this is awfully boring, wasteful and unproductive.  

A consequence might be that the national team improves over time if more emphasis is placed on facilities, coaching and development - but for now this is mainly a discussion about football structure.  

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1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Its a friendly. All friendlies are meaningless. They're even below cup games for people trying to gauge levels of entire leagues based on two clubs in a one off game. At least cup games are competitive fixtures. With friendlies you have no idea what either side was looking to achieve (match fitness, trialists, youth players, second string players getting runs out).

Was just going to post similar. We've all seen friendly results where amateur sides trounce junior teams or conversely junior teams beat SPFL XIs  convincingly. They mean nothing in the grand scheme of things because inevitably the lower graded side will treat it more seriously than the higher one will, and also in many cases one or both teams will use them as a useful exercise in running the rule over trialists/experimenting with formations etc.

Case in point: my team's last two friendlies have been against Ardeer Thistle and a Sunday amateur team, which we won 16-0 and 3-1 respectively. I certainly wouldn't cite the results as evidence that the latter are operating at a higher level than the former.

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6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Nope. It's irrational because you don't accept or consider any logic or evidence that contradicts that submission.

Flat Earthers use logic and evidence but they're irrational because they choose to ignore any logic or evidence that goes against what they want to be true.

...don't accept evidence such as...?

You continue with the angry insults.  Seeing as your club is one that may be affected, and you probably feel in some way threatened by this, could it be that it is you who is being irrational?

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7 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Not sure why you are you bringing in the national team argument again.  I'm talking about improving the football league structure from top to bottom, and regionalising earlier will do that. 

We have done the same thing over and over again without much success and I think making changes will make football better for supporters and for clubs, and ultimately more attractive to sponsors.  We currently have 4 leagues of 12 and 10 teams playing each other 4 times a season - this is awfully boring, wasteful and unproductive.  

A consequence might be that the national team improves over time if more emphasis is placed on facilities, coaching and development - but for now this is mainly a discussion about football structure.  

This post just proves my point. None of the things you are saying are actual arguments, its just buzzwords. Explain to me why the current structure is unproductive. Explain why regionalising instead would be more productive. Explain why your change is required in order for more emphasis to be placed on facilities, coaching and development. Explain why regionalising earlier will improve the football league structure, what will be better for supporters of, say, Stirling Albion if they are playing regionally instead of nationally? Explain why it would be more attractive to sponsors. You don't do any of this, you just say it would be so as it is obvious, but it isn't.

As for 'bringing up the national team argument again' - you are the one who has pushed this as the main thrust of your argument for pages and pages. If you want to change your tune now then fair enough but don't act as if its weird that people are refuting something that until recently was the main point of your argument.

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13 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

...don't accept evidence such as...?

You continue with the angry insults.  Seeing as your club is one that may be affected, and you probably feel in some way threatened by this, could it be that it is you who is being irrational?

You've pointed out countries where they regionalise at tier 3 and have success and act if that's proof but ignore all the countries who don't do that and still have successful leagues and national teams. You're are being utterly selective.

If East Fife found themselves in a regionalised league, so be it.

If we're simply talking about keeping things as they are but regionalising tiers 3 and 4 then I'm against that because it just sound like a terrible idea with no real advantage to the majority of clubs at all.

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