Junior football, what is the future?

[pyramidiot]

Serious question: without mentioning protecting the grade or history of the level, can someone please tell me the benefits and reasoning for wanting to stay junior in the west under whatever banner it’s presented, or joining the LL/EoS formed WoS?

I cannot see how any of the good elements of junior football aside from the prestige of the junior cup can be lost by moving across.

Almost 20 pages ago I posed this... no answer yet.

Anything now that would convince an ‘on the fence’ west junior team?

[Robert James]

Friendly today  : 

            ARMADALE  4  TYNECASTLE  4

[clash city rocker]

1 hour ago, gaz5 said:

Reinstatement wasn't the only "downside" financially to staying in the juniors when we did our due diligence.

- Reinstatement (none in seniors)
- Disciplinary fines (none in seniors)
- Cheaper membership with more included (£200 all in and we got handed £180 worth of balls for that, a £1k defibrillator, reduced course fees, all 4 licensable insurances, access to ground improvement grants and the licence process etc.)
- Insurance (free with league membership as above)
- Friendlies (no permit or charge in seniors)

Is an off the top of my head list of things that were a drain on club finances. We've saved nearly £500 this season alone so far on 1, 2, and 5 on top of the other benefits.

Why would we propose abolishing/changing those things to stay junior, where we couldn't have pursued a licence, when there was another league already offering that?

Your argument is nonsensical. Essentially, you're saying you should stay with your old gym, at higher cost with shitty old equipment, even though the shiny new one across the road is half the cost with better benefits to try to get your current gym to change the way it treats it's members. Isn't that what you pay the gym office bearers to do already? Did the members of the new gym have to lobby the owners/other members to get the good service they were offering?

That the Junior office bearers didn't do their own due diligence to compare their offering with that of others leading to their "members" choosing a better service in numbers isn't the members who left fault and that's the very head in the sand mindset that's got the SJFA to where it is today.

Let me ask you this another way: The EoS office bearers combined take less from the clubs by a significant margin to perform what are part time roles yet they are able to "offer" these benefits to the clubs for discussion and acceptance. They don't horde huge cash reserves, whatever comes in goes out to benefit the clubs.

Why has little changed in the juniors in 50 years and why is it the clubs jobs to hunt for and put forward improvements rather than those being paid a pretty penny, some in full time roles, to apparently run the association.

Other associations offering a better service to members is not the members fault and now that people realise they do have a choice they are, like most customers, voting with their feet.

That's a bit of a rant lol

Reinstatement is a disgrace but have heard many junior clubs and past junior clubs complain but never did anything about it. It could have been abolished yonks ago no point moaning now.

[clash city rocker]

1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

Aye your right its the clubs fault.

Just a thought were the clubs consulted/decision makers on forming a new wos league by either the sjfa or the wrsjfa?

Never said it was Dunipace fault it's the fault of every club that could have raised it at an AGM and abolished it. It's an absolute pathetic rule but every club just paid up. Shite like this has come back to haunt the SjFA , all about the cash to them.

[Sunrise]

Friendly today  : 
            ARMADALE  4  TYNECASTLE  4

I just get the impression that post adds nothing to this thread...

[Guest]

Never said it was Dunipace fault it's the fault of every club that could have raised it at an AGM and abolished it. It's an absolute pathetic rule but every club just paid up. Shite like this has come back to haunt the SjFA , all about the cash to them.

You are not saying its dunipaces fault, but you are saying the clubs should have done something about it and because they havent they shouldnt moan about it now.

This type of trench mentality is what the sjfa are hoping for because it means clubs will choose to stay junior.

I, like many others, have tried to remain as objective as I can when trying to inform other of the benefits of the pyramid system, from 1st hand knowledge of the success it's been for my club.

Now though it is becoming tiresome going over and over the same nonsense, reading about loyalty to a grade, the cost to join the pyramid, great plans and ideas being purported with no actual evidence, threats of legal action to name but a few.

The LL wos will be the only wos league in the pyramid structure, anyone thinking otherwise or telling clubs otherwise, is either misinformed, hasn't looked into the pyramid set up properly or is misleading people. (Potentially deliberately)

[cmontheloknow]

6 hours ago, clash city rocker said:

Never said it was Dunipace fault it's the fault of every club that could have raised it at an AGM and abolished it. It's an absolute pathetic rule but every club just paid up. Shite like this has come back to haunt the SjFA , all about the cash to them.

Reinstatement has absolutely zero positives for the clubs so I would wonder what stopped it ever getting scrapped? Did the management committees give some advice that abolition of it would have some other impact, like raising of fines? To misquote Tarkin from that other evil Empire, fear keeps the local systems in line! And it is fear of change that is what is being used just now. Shameful antics from those guilty.

Edited March 8, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Che Dail]

9 hours ago, Marten said:

In both countries it's not possible to get promoted from the 3rd tier to the 2nd tier. In The Netherlands, 2nd tier is full-time, 3rd is part-time, yet there is no promotion/relegation between them. And considering I'm from The Netherlands myself, I think I know how it works there...

Accordong to Wiki, it is possible.

Is this wrong?

The Dutch football league system consists of two fully professional leagues (Eredivisie and Eerste Divisie), one semi-professional level (Tweede Divisie) and seven levels of amateur football leagues, the highest of which is called Derde Divisie, formerly Topklasse. All the leagues are connected by a promotion and relegation system, but in order to be promoted to the Eerste Divisie a club has to submit a solid business plan to be approved by the Royal Dutch Football Association, as well as meet certain stadium demands, and some other demands that the football association stated for all the teams in the top two leagues.

 

 

[timeforchange]

Reinstatement is their biggest income . So the clubs are the SJFA biggest sponsor. 

[Marten]

18 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Accordong to Wiki, it is possible.

Is this wrong?

The Dutch football league system consists of two fully professional leagues (Eredivisie and Eerste Divisie), one semi-professional level (Tweede Divisie) and seven levels of amateur football leagues, the highest of which is called Derde Divisie, formerly Topklasse. All the leagues are connected by a promotion and relegation system, but in order to be promoted to the Eerste Divisie a club has to submit a solid business plan to be approved by the Royal Dutch Football Association, as well as meet certain stadium demands, and some other demands that the football association stated for all the teams in the top two leagues.

 

 

Yes, it's wrong. The names of Eerste Divisie and Tweede Divisie (1st & 2nd division) would make you think there is a connection. But in reality, there is no promotion/relegation. Clubs from the Tweede divisie can't get promoted and clubs from the Eerste Divisie can't get relegated. The semi-pro/amateur divisions are administered separately from the professional ones. And from the 5th tier down there is a further artificial divide in the non-league game.

They are trying to actually make a proper pyramid, both between professional & semi-professional and by getting rid of the artificial divide, but it's met by much resistance from traditionalists and many scare stories are spread about it, which are awfully similar to what's being said in the pyramid debate here in Scotland.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Marten

[Gordon EF]

12 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Accordong to Wiki, it is possible.

Is this wrong?

The Dutch football league system consists of two fully professional leagues (Eredivisie and Eerste Divisie), one semi-professional level (Tweede Divisie) and seven levels of amateur football leagues, the highest of which is called Derde Divisie, formerly Topklasse. All the leagues are connected by a promotion and relegation system, but in order to be promoted to the Eerste Divisie a club has to submit a solid business plan to be approved by the Royal Dutch Football Association, as well as meet certain stadium demands, and some other demands that the football association stated for all the teams in the top two leagues.

 

 

Jesus, admit defeat. To be a proper pyramid structure, a club has to be able to play it's way up that structure. The Dutch system doesn't sound that different to the way things used to be in Scotland where, if there's a space, the old boys club might vote you in if they liked the cut of your jib.

[BTID]

I have no experience or knowledge on what goes on at these committee meetings/agms etc so this is merely an outside opinion looking in. 
 

Take an example that I do know much about which is youth/development football. Now I’m sure most people would agree having some sort of pathway or club that feeds local players into your first team is a good idea. Sustainability, community involvement, an investment potentially, pride in bringing through your own. Not everyone will want to or have the resources to do so that’s fine, but general consensus would be that makes sense to have something in place to build a future for the association.

Arthurlie I believe brought up an idea a few years ago regarding some sort of development league and heard very few teams spoke up interested. Likewise, I believe it was brought up very recently by Whitletts and was told about half a dozen if that showed any sign of interest. 
 

Yet I will bet that within a year or two of the new WoSL being created, we’ll have a western conference in the LL 20s. Why? Probably because the culture within the structure of the association is progressive and takes ideas more positively? Ideas taken more seriously and action taken? That’s the vibe I get from the LL.  I can imagine a status quo / too much hassle to change attitude within the juniors. The ideas from the clubs are there, but the mentality to take ideas forward and get change across the board...others will have a better insight but it sounds like the culture is trying to maintain as much of the grade as it was in its prime in the 50s as if it’s still going to be relevant today. 

[Guest Moomintroll]

No idea who he is but Gordon Ronney will not come out well in this matter when it is recorded for the ages. He comes across as an utter moonhowler in the face of all the prevailing evidence.

[PastyMan]

7 hours ago, clash city rocker said:

That's a bit of a rant lol

Reinstatement is a disgrace but have heard many junior clubs and past junior clubs complain but never did anything about it. It could have been abolished yonks ago no point moaning now.

It's very far from a rant just a long long list of the practical benefits a club has experienced in moving away from the Juniors.

At many points in this thread people have asked for a list of benefits of staying in the Juniors

Apart from the Junior Cup nobody is putting forward any coherent argument to stay Junior.

What the clubs that have moved are saying is The Juniors Emperor has no Clothes!
 

[cmontheloknow]

18 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

No idea who he is but Gordon Ronney will not come out well in this matter when it is recorded for the ages. He comes across as an utter moonhowler in the face of all the prevailing evidence.

Football credentials here

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[parsforlife]

27 minutes ago, BTID said:

I have no experience or knowledge on what goes on at these committee meetings/agms etc so this is merely an outside opinion looking in. 
 

Take an example that I do know much about which is youth/development football. Now I’m sure most people would agree having some sort of pathway or club that feeds local players into your first team is a good idea. Sustainability, community involvement, an investment potentially, pride in bringing through your own. Not everyone will want to or have the resources to do so that’s fine, but general consensus would be that makes sense to have something in place to build a future for the association.

Arthurlie I believe brought up an idea a few years ago regarding some sort of development league and heard very few teams spoke up interested. Likewise, I believe it was brought up very recently by Whitletts and was told about half a dozen if that showed any sign of interest. 
 

Yet I will bet that within a year or two of the new WoSL being created, we’ll have a western conference in the LL 20s. Why? Probably because the culture within the structure of the association is progressive and takes ideas more positively? Ideas taken more seriously and action taken? That’s the vibe I get from the LL.  I can imagine a status quo / too much hassle to change attitude within the juniors. The ideas from the clubs are there, but the mentality to take ideas forward and get change across the board...

The LL/EoS are far more club lead than the SJFA.  If you want to implement something in the juniors then you need to get the management committees on board first before they’ll let you try and properly explore it with the wider clubs.  I think back to Kelty when they made the decision that they wanted to take the club forward from competing at the top of the east region. At that moment in time they weren’t thinking about quitting the juniors, just wanted an avenue to promotion and licensing.  So they asked the SJFA if they could have it put on the agenda at a few  meetings. They were told no.  They asked if they could arrange meetings with other clubs they believed to be interested, they were told that couldn’t happen.  That’s what forced their hand.

That wouldn’t happen in the EoS/LL,  if you have an idea that you want to pursue then they’ll allow discussion, they let clubs form sub-commitees to explore particular options and provide advice where asked(but rarely an opinion).  Not every idea will go far, but the better ones have space to grow organically without the top table crushing them at origin cos it wasn’t what their grandfathers did.

Edited March 8, 2020 by parsforlife

[the rambler]

One of the main considerations for West Junior Committees is who they will be playing going forward not whether they will rise through the Pyramid. If for instance Talbot, Cumnock, Glenafton, Pollok, Kilbirnie and Beith favour staying Junior but Kilwinning, Clydebank, Medda, Largs, Rossvale, Glencairn for example favour WOSFL how will a lesser League affect income. 

I would say all of them should opt for the LL option and that concern goes away. It just takes enough Clubs to make the leap and the rest will follow. 

It's a bigger risk being left behind and joining in a few years in the bottom tier. 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

Reinstatement has absolutely zero positives for the clubs so I would wonder what stopped it ever getting scrapped? Did the management committees give some advice that abolition of it would have some other impact, like raising of fines? To misquote Tarkin from that other evil Empire, fear keeps the local systems in line! And it is fear of change that is what is being used just now. Shameful antics from those guilty.

If you look at how the SJFA reps talked about keeping fines in the PWG meetings, it probably all comes down to money. SJFA needs the cash to cover the costs of running discipline for everyone. That was probably the party line whenever it got brought up by a club.

[Marshmallo]

24 minutes ago, PastyMan said:

It's very far from a rant just a long long list of the practical benefits a club has experienced in moving away from the Juniors.

At many points in this thread people have asked for a list of benefits of staying in the Juniors

Apart from the Junior Cup nobody is putting forward any coherent argument to stay Junior.

What the clubs that have moved are saying is The Juniors Emperor has no Clothes!
 

You're forgetting the salvation of an association 

[Che Dail]

44 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Jesus, admit defeat. To be a proper pyramid structure, a club has to be able to play it's way up that structure. The Dutch system doesn't sound that different to the way things used to be in Scotland where, if there's a space, the old boys club might vote you in if they liked the cut of your jib.

You do realise I didn't write it?  I just cut and paste the passage from the internet.  The nice thing about Wikipedia is that anyone can go on and make corrections when it is wrong.

Going back to my original point, I said something like, "As I understand it, having a functioning pyramid is a pre-requisite of UEFA funding" - We know what your interpretation is, but I don't know what the legal definition of 'pyramid' is to qualify or disbar any country from receipt of the money.  However, it is not the presence of automatic promotion or relegation and whether you need to apply to the league for permission to  move up that interests me.  It is the shape of the structure, and the proportion of professional to non-professional clubs I think is more significant when comparing other countries to ours. 

I believe we have too many clubs in the 'professional game', and that they are aligned in a column and not a pyramid.

And I'd prefer to compare with similar countries - Netherlands pop 17million , is flat, and occupies an area of land half the size of Scotland - quite different population density. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Che Dail