Junior football, what is the future?

[Dev]

47 minutes ago, falkirktv said:

Can’t see that working nothing in the sjfa constitution stops you resigning as a member or giving notice. They tired this bully boy tactic in the east and got told to F off. I kept the email I was sent!

At the end of the day the proposal is not to form a West of Scotland League. It is to add one or more divisions to an existing senior league which currently already forms a part of the SFA Pyramid structure.

If any club wishes to apply to enter such division(s) that is down to that club. If it means resigning from a sub-ordinate organisation so be it. End of story.

This whole matter has been handled with abject ignorance by certain groups which really should have ben able to do so much better. The reputed email's content illustrates this particular point of view. So sad.

What next? Complete implosion of one or more groups? This alleged email may be something which those, who are supposed to represent the Juniors, may come to regret. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Dev
amend

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

What is actually going on?

Legal action to stop clubs applying for a new league and keep them in the juniors?

Do they seriously think any court kn the land will take this on.

Just wow

 

As far as I am aware, there is no existing law which prevents a football club from leaving one league or association, and joining another. Any attempt to do so would leave the SJFA/WRJFA liable to prosecution from any/all clubs (individually or collectively) who suffer financial loss (etc) as a consequence of a 'restraint of trade' ...........IF they are (somehow)  prevented from doing so (in 2020/21).  

In theory, the SJFA could initiate legal action against the SFA, but on what lawful grounds ? Expensive, time consuming, and very risky for the Junior Associations IMO. 

Also, jt should not be forgotten that four North Junior clubs, left the NRJFA to join the Highland League in recent times, and 30+ East clubs followed in the wake of Kelty's move, by joining the East of Scotland League during the last 3 years.  Sensibly,there was no legal challenge by the SJFA on either occasion.

Clydebank ??

[Dev]

7 minutes ago, Robert James said:

 

As far as I am aware, there is no existing law which prevents a football club from leaving one league or association, and joining another. Any attempt to do so would leave the SJFA/WRJFA liable to prosecution from any/all clubs (individually or collectively) who suffer financial loss (etc) as a consequence of a 'restraint of trade' ...........IF they are (somehow)  prevented from doing so (in 2020/21).  

In theory, the SJFA could initiate legal action against the SFA, but on what lawful grounds ? Expensive, time consuming, and very risky for the Junior Associations IMO. 

Also, jt should not be forgotten that four North Junior clubs, left the NRJFA to join the Highland League in recent times, and 30+ East clubs followed in the wake of Kelty's move, by joining the East of Scotland League during the last 3 years.  Sensibly,there was no legal challenge by the SJFA on either occasion.

Clydebank ??

Hm! The SJFA is a sub-ordinate organisation to the SFA. Just ask UEFA.

[Che Dail]

10 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

I’m amused by the idea of legal action to stop a WoS forming.

There is absolutely no legal basis for such an action. The Lowland couldn’t tell the SJFA not to proceed with the changes in the West Region a year or two back? 

If the contention is “poaching” of member clubs, then both the Lowland and EoS saw that possible issue coming a mile off. Look at the wording of all statements thus far - the ball is completely in the court of individual clubs.

I might revise my 20-30 estimate of West Region clubs to move in the wake of this. Suspect it might be more now...

Absolutely scandalous, outrageous behaviour, and inconsistent with their approach over the last 2 or 3 seasons when they wished clubs well upon resigning from the SJFA.

Now it's innuendo and legal threats which amount to bullying, intimidation and harassment.

It is a shameful turn of events. Really poor.

 

[Dev]

11 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Absolutely scandalous, outrageous behaviour, and inconsistent with their approach over the last 2 or 3 seasons when they wished clubs well upon resigning from the SJFA.

Now it's innuendo and legal threats which amount to bullying, intimidation and harassment.

It is a shameful turn of events. Really poor.

 

Sadly, potentially fatal for the SJFA and its' Regions. After such a long history but, maybe, this shows why it is the right time to call an end.

[gaz5]

What exactly do they think the legal challenge might be?

SJFA: "Our clubs are being denied access to the SFA Pyramid"

Court: "I see, so there is no league within the SFA structure for your clubs to apply for membership of?"

SJFA: "Well, no, there are two league's and 25 of our members applied and were accepted into one two years ago and 30 applied and were accepted into another this year"

Court: "So how many clubs who have applied have been denied access thus far?"

SJFA: "Well none m'lord, but ra juniors and that"

Court: "What's ra juniors, is that some youth football organisation?"

SJFA: "Well no, it's a different grade of football, we operate separately to the Senior grade"

Court: "So you are by your own design separate from the SFA and you want to remain so, but any of your members who do want access can and have been able to move and not a single one has been rejected?"

SJFA: "Well yes, but you're missing the point, they're poaching our clubs and not letting us run the show and junior football is special"

Court: "I see, does it play to different rules than normal association football with different requirements or some such?"

SJFA: "Well, no, it's the same rules and that, we just charge money for friendly permits and take money off teams in fines for extra things and a few other things out of 1800's Scotland"

Court: "OK, so any of your clubs who want to play in the Pyramid do have access and none have ever been denied?"

SJFA: "no, you're not understanding, they're not being accepted in by the terms that we want to set, and they're taking our clubs"

Court: "So these league's are actively canvassing your members and building their organisation only with those clubs?"

SJFA: "Well, no, they've got a set criteria and have accepted anyone from any organisation who successfully meets the entry criteria, some of whom used to be ours but not all"

Court: "So, basically none of your clubs have been denied access to anything, you just don't like that you are not in charge of it?"

SJFA: "We should be in charge, yes"

Court: "And you were never given any opportunity to be involved at the outset, this was forced upon you?"

SJFA: "Well, no, not quite, we were at the table originally but we thought it was garbage and the juniors was the dogs danglies so we laughed at them originally then spent the next 5 or 6 years claiming it was inferior and scaring our membership into not going with talk of £150k toilets and wet Tuesday nights in Elgin for £30 a ticket, but it's not as bad as we thought"

Court: "Wait, so you walked away originally and actively discouraged your members from wanting to join with claims you knew not to be true and now they've realised you were lying they are leaving you?"

SJFA: "Well that's a simplistic way of looking at it, but sure, it was going well till those pesky kids at Kelty figured it out and everyone realised we were talking nonsense, then we were denied access"

Court: "So you didn't even want access till your members started figuring out you were lying and the decision to resign from your organisation to pursue their future in another?"

SJFA: "Well, you could interpret it that way"

Court: "Sir this is a Burger King Drive through window, there's a huge line behind you, could I please take your order or ask you to move on"

[Dead]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

This copy?  embarrassing stuff on a whole number of levels

 

Dear All

Pyramid

Following the Scottish Junior F.A. statement of the 14th February 2020, the West Junior F.A. would confirm their direct engagement with George Fraser Chairman of the Lowland League. A meeting was held on Wednesday 19th February where the WJFA representatives presented a number of proposals for the Lowland League to consider in order to open up further meaningful discussions in order to reach a mutually beneficial solution.

It is with bitter disappointment that we report our proposals have been rejected. We see the WJFA structure as a perfect bespoke solution to meet the Lowland League plans for the creation of a West of Scotland League which would fill the Pyramid void in the geographical West of the country.

Contrary to some opinion the SJFA have throughout pyramid discussions played a proactive approach within the Pyramid Working Group (PWG), we have not walked away and are always willing to re-open talks. Despite numerous agreements/statements including definitive conclusions by the Scottish FA these have failed to be followed through and released within the public domain. These will released in due course. All Junior Clubs should feel badly let down that we have yet to be included within the SFA’s blue print for “Pyramid” more especially when this had been previously agreed. This has not been the fault of the SJFA or the WJFA.

We have other options at our disposal and will implement these from today.

We would advise all clubs that at this time they should keep their options open with regard to “Expressions of Interest”, this in no way has to be regarded as “raising the white flag”, far from it. It is to safe guard our member clubs in their desire to join the pyramid. It would be remiss of the West Junior F.A. not to advise on the foregoing.

We can assure all member clubs that our resolve remains steadfast and that all that can be done will be done to ensure “no one is left behind”. It may be that the determination outcome lies outside the football authorities jurisdiction. A step we will consider if required to do so.

West Junior F.A

Wow. Is that it !

Is this really the time consider response and rallying cry for the ranks to hold firm as they wait for the realisation of the promise of a more palatable solutuon which will be "immently forthcoming".

This statement will have the reverse of what its authors intended. Folks and clubs aint daft (unless they choose to be). Sadly "comical Ali" leaps to mind but it shouldn't be this way. We are all just football fans following football clubs. 

The horse has bolted and it seems everything is now being chucked out the pram.

Sadly it seems that these bodies forget that they are just representatives of the clubs. 

Where ever each club wants to be next season let them decide. Statements like this are at best not helpful. The veiled threat of legal action in the statement's last paragraph is pure desperation.

Looking forward to a new era for the west clubs next season where they can decide their own future without "glass ceilings". 

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

"It may be that the determination outcome lies outside the football authorities jurisdiction. A step we will consider if required to do so."

Do they have the slightest idea how badly the SFA will receive the threat of a minor and separate league organisation taking them to court? They'll be furious. If the WRSJFA come close to going down this road it's goodbye Scottish Cup place, farewell referees, so long cosy spot at Hampden. They'll be booted into the wilderness.

This statement is Jim Traynor-levels of heids gone and will have all well-run clubs running for the door.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, .Stuart. said:

Kilwinning is mainly an affluent town...wit?

The Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation says otherwise.

 

[craigkillie]

Clearly the bit you see when ye pass through on the train isn't the 'affluent' bit..... [emoji6]

Most of the part which you pass through on the train is fairly decent by any reasonable Scottish standards - the map above backs that up. Kilwinning has lots of shite areas, but Whitehirst Park and the small set of houses on the other side of the railway (where I grew up) are perfectly pleasant places.

[Doonhamer1969]

1 hour ago, gaz5 said:

What exactly do they think the legal challenge might be?

SJFA: "Our clubs are being denied access to the SFA Pyramid"

Court: "I see, so there is no league within the SFA structure for your clubs to apply for membership of?"

SJFA: "Well, no, there are two league's and 25 of our members applied and were accepted into one two years ago and 30 applied and were accepted into another this year"

Court: "So how many clubs who have applied have been denied access thus far?"

SJFA: "Well none m'lord, but ra juniors and that"

Court: "What's ra juniors, is that some youth football organisation?"

SJFA: "Well no, it's a different grade of football, we operate separately to the Senior grade"

Court: "So you are by your own design separate from the SFA and you want to remain so, but any of your members who do want access can and have been able to move and not a single one has been rejected?"

SJFA: "Well yes, but you're missing the point, they're poaching our clubs and not letting us run the show and junior football is special"

Court: "I see, does it play to different rules than normal association football with different requirements or some such?"

SJFA: "Well, no, it's the same rules and that, we just charge money for friendly permits and take money off teams in fines for extra things and a few other things out of 1800's Scotland"

Court: "OK, so any of your clubs who want to play in the Pyramid do have access and none have ever been denied?"

SJFA: "no, you're not understanding, they're not being accepted in by the terms that we want to set, and they're taking our clubs"

Court: "So these league's are actively canvassing your members and building their organisation only with those clubs?"

SJFA: "Well, no, they've got a set criteria and have accepted anyone from any organisation who successfully meets the entry criteria, some of whom used to be ours but not all"

Court: "So, basically none of your clubs have been denied access to anything, you just don't like that you are not in charge of it?"

SJFA: "We should be in charge, yes"

Court: "And you were never given any opportunity to be involved at the outset, this was forced upon you?"

SJFA: "Well, no, not quite, we were at the table originally but we thought it was garbage and the juniors was the dogs danglies so we laughed at them originally then spent the next 5 or 6 years claiming it was inferior and scaring our membership into not going with talk of £150k toilets and wet Tuesday nights in Elgin for £30 a ticket, but it's not as bad as we thought"

Court: "Wait, so you walked away originally and actively discouraged your members from wanting to join with claims you knew not to be true and now they've realised you were lying they are leaving you?"

SJFA: "Well that's a simplistic way of looking at it, but sure, it was going well till those pesky kids at Kelty figured it out and everyone realised we were talking nonsense, then we were denied access"

Court: "So you didn't even want access till your members started figuring out you were lying and the decision to resign from your organisation to pursue their future in another?"

SJFA: "Well, you could interpret it that way"

Court: "Sir this is a Burger King Drive through window, there's a huge line behind you, could I please take your order or ask you to move on"

Poor old Elgin.

£30 for League Two fitba on a wet Tuesday night....nae wonder kids would rather play on their X boxes

 

[the rambler]

Can someone clarify what was proposed to the Lowland League by the West Region at the recent meeting and what was rejected? 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Can someone clarify what was proposed to the Lowland League by the West Region at the recent meeting and what was rejected? 

The west juniors join en masse as a feeder league keeping their own cups and not entering the south challenge etc.

[the rambler]

Thanks for the reply... what parts of the proposal were rejected? 

 

 

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Well, It's out there now. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/ayrshire/scottish-junior-football-chiefs-hint-21601673.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Batshit mental. What would even be the legal basis for this court case? That’s one of the most pathetic statements ever released in Scottish football, it didnt even need a concomitant.

[LongTimeLurker]

22 minutes ago, the rambler said:

Thanks for the reply... what parts of the proposal were rejected? 

That has yet to be clarified, but the LL and EoS have already made it clear that they will not accept SJFA involvement in the pyramid, so anything that did not involve the west region leaving the SJFA and entering the South Challenge Cup rather than the Junior Cup would have been rejected.

[8MileBU]

What exactly do they think the legal challenge might be?

SJFA: "Our clubs are being denied access to the SFA Pyramid"

Court: "I see, so there is no league within the SFA structure for your clubs to apply for membership of?"

SJFA: "Well, no, there are two league's and 25 of our members applied and were accepted into one two years ago and 30 applied and were accepted into another this year"

Court: "So how many clubs who have applied have been denied access thus far?"

SJFA: "Well none m'lord, but ra juniors and that"

Court: "What's ra juniors, is that some youth football organisation?"

SJFA: "Well no, it's a different grade of football, we operate separately to the Senior grade"

Court: "So you are by your own design separate from the SFA and you want to remain so, but any of your members who do want access can and have been able to move and not a single one has been rejected?"

SJFA: "Well yes, but you're missing the point, they're poaching our clubs and not letting us run the show and junior football is special"

Court: "I see, does it play to different rules than normal association football with different requirements or some such?"

SJFA: "Well, no, it's the same rules and that, we just charge money for friendly permits and take money off teams in fines for extra things and a few other things out of 1800's Scotland"

Court: "OK, so any of your clubs who want to play in the Pyramid do have access and none have ever been denied?"

SJFA: "no, you're not understanding, they're not being accepted in by the terms that we want to set, and they're taking our clubs"

Court: "So these league's are actively canvassing your members and building their organisation only with those clubs?"

SJFA: "Well, no, they've got a set criteria and have accepted anyone from any organisation who successfully meets the entry criteria, some of whom used to be ours but not all"

Court: "So, basically none of your clubs have been denied access to anything, you just don't like that you are not in charge of it?"

SJFA: "We should be in charge, yes"

Court: "And you were never given any opportunity to be involved at the outset, this was forced upon you?"

SJFA: "Well, no, not quite, we were at the table originally but we thought it was garbage and the juniors was the dogs danglies so we laughed at them originally then spent the next 5 or 6 years claiming it was inferior and scaring our membership into not going with talk of £150k toilets and wet Tuesday nights in Elgin for £30 a ticket, but it's not as bad as we thought"

Court: "Wait, so you walked away originally and actively discouraged your members from wanting to join with claims you knew not to be true and now they've realised you were lying they are leaving you?"

SJFA: "Well that's a simplistic way of looking at it, but sure, it was going well till those pesky kids at Kelty figured it out and everyone realised we were talking nonsense, then we were denied access"

Court: "So you didn't even want access till your members started figuring out you were lying and the decision to resign from your organisation to pursue their future in another?"

SJFA: "Well, you could interpret it that way"

Court: "Sir this is a Burger King Drive through window, there's a huge line behind you, could I please take your order or ask you to move on"

[emoji1][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

[the rambler]

West Region Clubs want to join the Pyramid. West Region SJFA propose all Clubs move over en bloc. Lowland reject the proposal but meanwhile encourage the same Clubs to join WOSFL. 

The changes in the East were very divisive and I hoped that lessons could be learned and all West Clubs would join the Pyramid at the same time.

I am trying to understand the stumbling blocks and why they can't be negotiated and overcome. 

Is it simply that LL want to run the WOSFL without any of the administrators currently running the West Juniors. Do the LL have the manpower to do this? 

 

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

8 minutes ago, the rambler said:

West Region Clubs want to join the Pyramid. West Region SJFA propose all Clubs move over en bloc. Lowland reject the proposal but meanwhile encourage the same Clubs to join WOSFL. 

The changes in the East were very divisive and I hoped that lessons could be learned and all West Clubs would join the Pyramid at the same time.

I am trying to understand the stumbling blocks and why they can't be negotiated and overcome. 

Is it simply that LL want to run the WOSFL without any of the administrators currently running the West Juniors. Do the LL have the manpower to do this? 

 

 

Clearly they do or they wouldnt be doing it but will get handed over to wosfl ppl at some point. I think the reason why they dont want them involved is they were complete c***s during the process. The west would have been in on their own for this season but tj woildnt let them 

[LongTimeLurker]

Running a league isn't particularly difficult so the LL should be able to run a WoS no problem until it can be spun off with its own officeholders. The LL and EoS don't want Tom Johnston and other SJFA officeholders to have any role in the pyramid so they plan to hit the reset button on who administers any west feeder.