Junior football, what is the future?

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 minute ago, Enigma said:

Perhaps if Brechin didn’t want relegated into the HL they should have hired a better manager or recruited better players or they could still win the play off. No sympathy for them. For what it’s worth I’ve always though the “Highland” area should include all of Perth and Kinross.

Everything north of the Clyde/Forth and the canal between them.

[morley]

16 minutes ago, morley said:

Totally agree. This argument is all a red herring. If accept many of Brechin players are central belt based. Take Edinburgh as starting point this season from there they will have had 2.5hr car journeys to Cove Rangers, 2hr journey to Annan, and 3.5 hr journey to Elgin. Then when travelling to Central belt based spfl 2 clubs given travelling Saturdays and week day evenings for games often hitting rush hour and those journeys with in the central belt will still often take 2 hours or more for the players. Also you would think any central belt based players already playing in the HL will be keen to move to Brechin given they will become the most southerly club. Then moving away from players and consider fans travelling to away games, most will be Brechin/Angus based and the travel times to HL clubs for them will be about the same as they faced in the Spfl and arguably more predictable with less traffic congestion. Could also argue given how competitive the LL is going to become over the next few years with the large EOS clubs and now WOS clubs coming through, Brechin or indeed any of the Angus clubs will actually have more chance getting back to the Spfl via the HL than LL. 

Also adding to my earlier point, as seen in the cup competitions with the top HL and LL teams taking part this season. The HL teams actually bring larger away supports to games than most the current LL teams do. 

[Pyramidic]

2 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

Just wondering if there is any room for a compromise at this late stage.

1. WRJFA hold an EGM in the next couple of weeks. Declare that the league proposes to withdraw from the SJFA for 2020/21 season and applies to the WoSFL as a whole keeping its 4 divisions intact in the process.

2. Their clubs retain associate membership of the SJFA enabling them to enter the Junior Cup for 2020/21.

3. Other senior clubs in the HL, LL, EoSFL and SoSFL can apply for associate membership of the SJFA enabling them to enter the Junior Cup for 2020/21.

4. TJ and the SJFA Committee show some flexibility and common sense for the good of the Scottish semi-professional game and not continue to act as an obstacle to progress.

Could this act as a template or "has the horse already bolted"?

I possibly need to add some meat to the bones for this scenario is to be successfully implemented:

a) The SJFA would have no part whatsoever to play in running or overseeing the new WoSFL.

b) Committee members of the old/current WRJFA that wish to be part of running the WoSFL would need to be fully converted to the role that the Pyramid has to play in the progession of Scottish semi-professional football.

c) There would be no place for "old-school" acolytes of the Junior "we have always done it this way and I know better because I wear a blazer" mentality.

d) The 63 WRJFA clubs move over as a group to become senior clubs while keeping their current structure.

e) Geographical integrity is maintained with ERJFA clubs going to EoSFL and SoSFL clubs remaining in their current league - with one exception Bonnyton Thistle.

f) Bonnyton Thistle as a current Tier 6 senior club may play as a 17th club in the WoSFL Premier Tier 6 if they desire.

g) New clubs such as Drumchapel and "separate entity" Community Clubs and  Academy clubs may join at Tier 9.

h) All clubs may retain a link to their Junior roots by competing in the SJFA Junior Cup. Associate membership of the SJFA would be necessary to maintain this link.

i) The Junior Cup round dates are programmed by the SJFA to be assimilated within the Senior calendar.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Pyramidic

[Robert James]

15 minutes ago, morley said:

Totally agree. This argument is all a red herring. If accept many of Brechin players are central belt based. Take Edinburgh as starting point this season from there they will have had 2.5hr car journeys to Cove Rangers, 2hr journey to Annan, and 3.5 hr journey to Elgin. Then when travelling to Central belt based spfl 2 clubs given travelling Saturdays and week day evenings for games often hitting rush hour and those journeys with in the central belt will still often take 2 hours or more for the players. Also you would think any central belt based players already playing in the HL will be keen to move to Brechin given they will become the most southerly club. Then moving away from players and consider fans travelling to away games, most will be Brechin/Angus based and the travel times to HL clubs for them will be about the same as they faced in the Spfl and arguably more predictable with less traffic congestion. Could also argue given how competitive the LL is going to become over the next few years with the large EOS clubs and now WOS clubs coming through, Brechin or indeed any of the Angus clubs will actually have more chance getting back to the Spfl via the HL than LL. 

Sums it up very accurately Morley.   Also,  the annual  trip to Fort William, is popular with the fans of the other HFL clubs. Ben Nevis, chance to look out for Nessie, have a wee dram or two, and usually 3 points to take back home (to Brechin). 

Sorry Brechin. Although all is not lost for you YET.

[glensmad]

14 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

I possibly need to add some meat to the bones for this scenario is to be successfully implemented:

a) The SJFA would have no part whatsoever to play in running or overseeing the new WoSFL.

b) Committee members of the old/current WRJFA that wish to be part of running the WoSFL would need to be fully converted to the role that the Pyramid has to play in the progession of Scottish semi-professional football.

c) There would be no place for "old-school" acolytes of the Junior "we have always done it this way and I know better because I wear a blazer" mentality.

d) The 63 WRJFA clubs move over as a group to become senior clubs while keeping their current structure.

e) Geographical integrity is maintained with ERJFA clubs going to EoSFL and SoSFL clubs remaining in their current league - with one exception Bonnyton Thistle.

f) Bonnyton Thistle as a current Tier 6 senior club may play as a 17th club in the WoSFL Premier Tier 6 if they desire.

g) New clubs such as Drumchapel and "separate entity" Community Clubs and  Academy clubs may join at Tier 9.

h) All clubs may retain a link to their Junior roots by competing in the SJFA Junior Cup. Associate membership of the SJFA would be necessary to maintain this link.

i) The Junior Cup round dates are programmed by the SJFA to be assimilated within the Senior calendar.

This seems very detailed to be just a "scenario".

Do you know something ?

[GordonS]

32 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Everything north of the Clyde/Forth and the canal between them.

This would put Rangers Colts in the north, amusingly. I'm suddenly less opposed to them joining the pyramid.

Also Kilsyth, Camelon, Dunipace and Sauchie. It's a bold call.

[Burnie_man]

39 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

I possibly need to add some meat to the bones for this scenario is to be successfully implemented:

a) The SJFA would have no part whatsoever to play in running or overseeing the new WoSFL.

b) Committee members of the old/current WRJFA that wish to be part of running the WoSFL would need to be fully converted to the role that the Pyramid has to play in the progession of Scottish semi-professional football.

c) There would be no place for "old-school" acolytes of the Junior "we have always done it this way and I know better because I wear a blazer" mentality.

d) The 63 WRJFA clubs move over as a group to become senior clubs while keeping their current structure.

e) Geographical integrity is maintained with ERJFA clubs going to EoSFL and SoSFL clubs remaining in their current league - with one exception Bonnyton Thistle.

f) Bonnyton Thistle as a current Tier 6 senior club may play as a 17th club in the WoSFL Premier Tier 6 if they desire.

g) New clubs such as Drumchapel and "separate entity" Community Clubs and  Academy clubs may join at Tier 9.

h) All clubs may retain a link to their Junior roots by competing in the SJFA Junior Cup. Associate membership of the SJFA would be necessary to maintain this link.

i) The Junior Cup round dates are programmed by the SJFA to be assimilated within the Senior calendar.

Points F and G alone should see this fired into the sun.  The whole premise of the WoSFL is that every club in the west of Scotland regardless of who they are, have a route into the Pyramid and are treated equally and on their merits.  It's an independent league free of Junior FA influence. This is saying to non-Junior clubs, if you want in, you have to join at the bottom rung of the WRJFA, completely unacceptable.   

Point i just shows the real purpose, keeping the SJFA involved.

Is this the proposal talked about by the SJFA? tell them to GTF and press on.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Marten]

49 minutes ago, morley said:

Totally agree. This argument is all a red herring. If accept many of Brechin players are central belt based. Take Edinburgh as starting point this season from there they will have had 2.5hr car journeys to Cove Rangers, 2hr journey to Annan, and 3.5 hr journey to Elgin. Then when travelling to Central belt based spfl 2 clubs given travelling Saturdays and week day evenings for games often hitting rush hour and those journeys with in the central belt will still often take 2 hours or more for the players. Also you would think any central belt based players already playing in the HL will be keen to move to Brechin given they will become the most southerly club. Then moving away from players and consider fans travelling to away games, most will be Brechin/Angus based and the travel times to HL clubs for them will be about the same as they faced in the Spfl and arguably more predictable with less traffic congestion. Could also argue given how competitive the LL is going to become over the next few years with the large EOS clubs and now WOS clubs coming through, Brechin or indeed any of the Angus clubs will actually have more chance getting back to the Spfl via the HL than LL. 

Brechin will need to be training elsewhere (ideally in Brechin/Angus) and they will need an overhaul of their transfer policy, but being the southernmost HL club could give them a decent advantage. They can try to poach better players of the better Tayside juniors, some of these players won't look out of place in the HL at all. They can pick up players from Tayside SPFL clubs who are not good enough for the SFPL but could be good enough for the HL. And as you said, they can try to poach current HL players who live closer to Brechin then to wherever they are currently playing. They need to change their way of thinking, but I think they'd be in a much better place in the HL with not too bad of a chance to eventually challenge to come back up.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

30 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

I possibly need to add some meat to the bones for this scenario is to be successfully implemented:

a) The SJFA would have no part whatsoever to play in running or overseeing the new WoSFL.
That's a Given

b) Committee members of the old/current WRJFA that wish to be part of running the WoSFL would need to be fully converted to the role that the Pyramid has to play in the progession of Scottish semi-professional football.
I would believe any junior association member would be allowed to apply for a position in the new WOS league

c) There would be no place for "old-school" acolytes of the Junior "we have always done it this way and I know better because I wear a blazer" mentality.
Again, That's a Given

d) The 63 WRJFA clubs move over as a group to become senior clubs while keeping their current structure.
That would be great but the teams applying from outside the juniors should be taken into account, not just Bonnyton

e) Geographical integrity is maintained with ERJFA clubs going to EoSFL and SoSFL clubs remaining in their current league - with one exception Bonnyton Thistle.
One of the sticklers from the Juniors which was hard to sort as all parties wouldn't budge.

f) Bonnyton Thistle as a current Tier 6 senior club may play as a 17th club in the WoSFL Premier Tier 6 if they desire.
Agreed

g) New clubs such as Drumchapel and "separate entity" Community Clubs and  Academy clubs may join at Tier 9.
Academy clubs will have U20s development squads but they could be allowed an U23 squad, (just throwing that in there and should always be considered)

h) All clubs may retain a link to their Junior roots by competing in the SJFA Junior Cup. Associate membership of the SJFA would be necessary to maintain this link.
Disagree, the junior association will cease to exist so why keep a cup going in regards to it. There will be a main Scottish cup for all non league teams

i) The Junior Cup round dates are programmed by the SJFA to be assimilated within the Senior calendar.
Again, disagree due to same reason as h)

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

This would put Rangers Colts in the north, amusingly. I'm suddenly less opposed to them joining the pyramid.

Also Kilsyth, Camelon, Dunipace and Sauchie. It's a bold call.

Just wait for Campbeltown v Orkney in the Highland League on a Tuesday night.

[Pyramidic]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Points F and G alone should see this fired into the sun.  The whole premise of the WoSFL is that every club in the west of Scotland regardless of who they are, have a route into the Pyramid and are treated equally and on their merits.  It's an independent league free of Junior FA influence. This is saying to non-Junior clubs, if you want in, you have to join at the bottom rung of the WRJFA, completely unacceptable.   

Point i just shows the real purpose, keeping the SJFA involved.

Is this the proposal talked about by the SJFA? tell the to GTF and press on.

Can you suggest a better way out of the current Labyrinth while enabling the retention of everthing good that has been achieved?

TJ in my opinion has an awful lot to answer for given the mess that he has overseen but in my view there is no harm whatsoever in seeking a compromise which makes everyone a winner and enables the Pyramid to flourish.

[Robert James]

14 minutes ago, glensmad said:

This seems very detailed to be just a "scenario".

Do you know something ?

"Geographical integrity".

So are you going to transfer Kello Rovers from the Juniors to the SoSL, as they are located in Dumfries & Galloway ? 

Also, would SFA (seniors) Glasgow University be an "exception" in your opinion, should they decide to apply to join the West league/pyramid ?

[superbigal]

As no league actually exists yet in wos territory.
Can the west juniors not just form it anyway in a race to fill the void. Does the LL actually have anyway to stop that if Tam declared it tomorrow Burnie ?

[FairWeatherFan]

25 minutes ago, glensmad said:

This seems very detailed to be just a "scenario".

Do you know something ?

This is what they usually do. It's not a sign of anything other than free time on their hands.

[glensmad]

3 minutes ago, Robert James said:

"Geographical integrity".

So are you going to transfer Kello Rovers from the Juniors to the SoSL, as they are located in Dumfries & Galloway ? 

Also, would SFA (seniors) Glasgow University be an "exception" in your opinion, should they decide to apply to join the West league/pyramid ?

I think you may have quoted the wrong post there.

[glensmad]

3 minutes ago, superbigal said:

As no league actually exists yet in wos territory.
Can the west juniors not just form it anyway in a race to fill the void. Does the LL actually have anyway to stop that if Tam declared it tomorrow Burnie ?

Who would it feed into if the LL said they weren't recognising it ?

[LongTimeLurker]

4 minutes ago, superbigal said:

As no league actually exists yet in wos territory.
Can the west juniors not just form it anyway in a race to fill the void. Does the LL actually have anyway to stop that if Tam declared it tomorrow Burnie ?

No league can become a feeder to the LL without the LL and EoS signing off on changes to the LL playoff format so no the west juniors can't do that. This has been obvious for at least a year now.

Edited February 20, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Can you suggest a better way out of the current Labyrinth while enabling the retention of everthing good that has been achieved?

TJ in my opinion has an awful lot to answer for given the mess that he has overseen but in my view there is no harm whatsoever in seeking a compromise which makes everyone a winner and enables the Pyramid to flourish.

We don't need compromise.  Compromise has got us exactly nowhere in the last 2 years.

A West of Scotland League provides the route to the Pyramid for any club that wants it  (Junior or non-Junior) and can be achieved for next season.

The WRJFA remains for those clubs who want to remain Junior, as is their right.

It really is that simple. 

The LL (or EoS) are not going to look good if, after the last few weeks, they hit reverse.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, superbigal said:

As no league actually exists yet in wos territory.
Can the west juniors not just form it anyway in a race to fill the void. Does the LL actually have anyway to stop that if Tam declared it tomorrow Burnie ?

Well yes, it has already been stopped at last PWG  (not that it was ever offered)

[holmparkheroes]

55 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Everything north of the Clyde/Forth and the canal between them.

Vale of Leven would be chuffed with that