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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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Just now, Burnie_man said:

"Future of Junior Football"

Not "Future of SPFL"  !!!!!!

😅 Sorry Boss 👍   

Although please bear with me - as I'm trying to illustrate that the future for Junior clubs could and should  be very positive - once all in under the one banner.

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25 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

The South is a large geographical area, if sparsely populated (apart from Dumfries).

Why shouldnt 14% fo Scotland's land area have a separate geographical league ?

My point about 4 compass points is that it keeps things simple. Why complicate matters ?

I've never said the current SoSFL region shouldn't continue as a seperate geographical entity.

The four ponts of a compass argument isn't 'simple', it's just completely irrelevant. The regional divisions should absolutely be made with clubs best interests in mind. If we were starting from scratch, there is no way someone would design the structure below the Lowland League into East, West and 'Dumfries & Galloway' on equal footing. It's not simple at all. What the Highland League decide to do is largely irrelvant.

I'm all for keeing the SoSFL as it is at tier 6 at the moment if it works for the clubs. I would probably move it down to tier 7 and let it become a southern feeder to the WoSFL Premier. That allows D&G clubs who want to remain playing locally to do so and allow the more ambitious clubs to participate in the WoSFL set up.

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18 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I've never said the current SoSFL region shouldn't continue as a seperate geographical entity.

The four ponts of a compass argument isn't 'simple', it's just completely irrelevant. The regional divisions should absolutely be made with clubs best interests in mind. If we were starting from scratch, there is no way someone would design the structure below the Lowland League into East, West and 'Dumfries & Galloway' on equal footing. It's not simple at all. What the Highland League decide to do is largely irrelvant.

I'm all for keeing the SoSFL as it is at tier 6 at the moment if it works for the clubs. I would probably move it down to tier 7 and let it become a southern feeder to the WoSFL Premier. That allows D&G clubs who want to remain playing locally to do so and allow the more ambitious clubs to participate in the WoSFL set up.

Re Highland League and SoS we need a Scotland-wide approach that doesn't punish teams who happen to be outside the Central Belt with time and money consuming travelling.

Why should , say , a current West League One side moving over to the new WoS get an easier ride than an ambitious SoS team ?

Why should Threave have to travel miles to play in a better standard league when ,say, Lesmahagow, won't have to ?

The whole east -west Central belt- only scenario benefits teams on a geographical basis, not on the basis of ability or ambition.

 

Edited by Doonhamer1969
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24 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

10 team leagues are dull - SPL1 and SPL2 clubs playing each other 4 times a season... what for?

I think:

T1=12;

T2 =14 (or 16) Full time professional clubs: 26 best v best 

then

T3 = 64 Licensed part-time and semi-pro clubs split regionally: 32 HL (16 north & 16 South) and 32 LL (16 west & 16 East) 

Teams playing each other four times a season in league competition is, for me, the very definition of dull in a footballing context so I'm in 100% agreement with you on that. However, you do realise that in a 12 team, Tier 1 league - should you continue with it's present construct - teams will play each other four times a season (four times v teams who finish in your half of the league post split and three times v teams who finish in the other half of the league post split)? Four times a season is four times a season whether it is against the whole league or only against half of it so you are arguing, even if only in some small way, for the continuation of a dull product at the very top of the Pyramid.

Anyway, as has been rightly said - this is a debate on the future of the Junior game so best it is that which is debated and not the wholesale restructuring of the game at the top of the Pyramid as that is hugely unlikely to happen any time soon and is more likely to remain a simple fantasy for long into the foreseeable future.

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13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

"Future of Junior Football"

Not "Future of SPFL"  !!!!!!

I'd also point out that as someone with a big interest in junior football (and the future.... or non future of it ;) ) I would always keep in mind that those who follow/ are involved in teams at this level should most of the time be listened too as opposed to told by someone like myself who isn't involved.

It's quite odd to see things have done some sort of weird reverse where upon trying to read what the latest is on junior football, I'm reading about how my SPFL club should be in a regionalised league along with many others with little consideration/ understanding of what anyone involved with these clubs wants.

Just like the vast majority of non league/ junior fans like the regionalisation, I'm fairly certain a vast majority of SPFL fans/ clubs like being national clubs playing in national leagues. Over the past two decades you've seen many clubs/ fans outside of the pyramid lobbying for change in a variety of ways - how many times have you seen fans of SPFL clubs or clubs themselves arguing to be regionalised.....? That tells you all you need to know.

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

10 team leagues are dull - SPL1 and SPL2 clubs playing each other 4 times a season... what for?

I think:

T1=12;

T2 =14 (or 16) Full time professional clubs: 26 best v best 

then

T3 = 64 Licensed part-time and semi-pro clubs split regionally: 32 HL (16 north & 16 South) and 32 LL (16 west & 16 East) 

Then several regional semi-pro / amateur clubs below that, in order:  A pyramid.

In terms of the financial split - Last season a £23.7m pot was shared among 42 professional clubs - that needn't change.  The top 26 received £22.8m, leaving the remaining 16 with just short of £1m.   In my proposal, that translates as £500k to HL and £500k to LL clubs, at Tier 3. 

Those clubs are then in 16 team leagues all with opportunity to go up, and fluid movement down.  Still a sizeable financial incentive to finish high up the league, however they decide to allocate the prize money (incrementally, from top to bottom, or top 6, whatever suits). 

In terms of 'Status', this is down to how T3 is marketed and presented and commercialized.

So to illustrate, The LL at T3 could look like:

West

Dumbarton

Clyde

Stranraer

Stirling Albion

Annan

Queen’s Park

Albion Rovers

BSC Glasgow

Caley Braves

Cumbernauld Colts

University of Stirling

Gretna

(Clydebank)

(Kilwinning)

(Pollok)

(Auchinleck)

 

East: 

Edinburgh City

Stenhousemuir

Cowdenbeath

Kelty Hearts

Bonnyrigg Rose

East Stirlingshire

Civil Service Strollers

The Spartans

Berwick Rangers

Gala Fairydean Rovers

Vale of Leithen

Edinburgh University

Bo’ness United

Broxburn Athletic

Penicuik Athletic

Linlithgow Rose

 

I think that's decent.  (currently) unlicensed clubs in brackets.

Good stuff, except you missed East Kilbride from West ;)

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4 minutes ago, SimonLichtie said:

I'd also point out that as someone with a big interest in junior football (and the future.... or non future of it ;) ) I would always keep in mind that those who follow/ are involved in teams at this level should most of the time be listened too as opposed to told by someone like myself who isn't involved.

It's quite odd to see things have done some sort of weird reverse where upon trying to read what the latest is on junior football, I'm reading about how my SPFL club should be in a regionalised league along with many others with little consideration/ understanding of what anyone involved with these clubs wants.

Just like the vast majority of non league/ junior fans like the regionalisation, I'm fairly certain a vast majority of SPFL fans/ clubs like being national clubs playing in national leagues. Over the past two decades you've seen many clubs/ fans outside of the pyramid lobbying for change in a variety of ways - how many times have you seen fans of SPFL clubs or clubs themselves arguing to be regionalised.....? That tells you all you need to know.

This.

Cleat that people who follow a certain Junior team want a regionalised SPFL as they are scared of the national setup.

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12 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Re Highland League and SoS we need a Scotland-wide approach that doesn't punish teams who happen to be outside the Central Belt with time and money consuming travelling.

Why should , say , a current West League One side moving over to the new WoS get an easier ride than an ambitious SoS team ?

Why should Threave have to travel miles to play in a better standard league when ,say, Lesmahagow, won't have to ?

The whole east -west Central belt- only scenario benefits teams on a geographical basis, not in the basis of ability or ambition.

 

100% agree with what you say but

We will need regionalized divisions as some teams will never get far in progression while some teams from the region will be good enough but say a team in the region ptomots to the bigger wider league and does well but after ten years, change in staff, players, committee etc.. and the standard drops they might get relegated and then able to be back to their regional and thus reorganize and grow again.  We don't want any team to fold so helping others to find their level always helps.  This does create problems.
Say we keep the EOS and SOS at tier 6 and a new WOS starts at tier 6, so that's fine. But in a couple of years the SOS standard is still low, as many have stated, not me I may add as I don't know the standards) and a reorganization happens and the SOS drops down a tier7 and feeds into the top WOS. it means the tier 6 WOS will have a team or teams promoted who are further away but as Doon says why hurt teams because they are further away do the WOS might not be just the west but include some of the promising SOS teams.

the whole west region juniors is not regionalized, they used to be and they continue so the whole west could continue the way they are except until tier 6 where the SOS could enter as a feeder. Obviously the SOS and other associations would have to agree with this but I say not right now, keep it the way it is with a new WOS, hopefully , entering in at teir 6

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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Good stuff, except you missed East Kilbride from West [emoji6]
It's utter nonsense.

You've got teams in tier 6 suddenly promoted to tier 3. It would be a death sentence to any of the full time teams dropping from tier 2 into tier 3.

The entry price in tier 3 is currently £15 while in tier 6 it is around £7/8. The financial setup of these clubs is significantly different.
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45 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

So Wigtown & Bladnoch have zero possibility of becoming the next Tarff Rovers? Stranraer looking likely for the bottom tier and trying to stay in the SPFL won't fold their reserves for the 5th time?

Then you've had Threave and Dalbeattie leave twice in the past and Gretna 2008 who have never played there before. Long term do you think they want to be playing for the same 4-5 cups against the same 12-14 teams?

That's a good argument for having less cups.

The SoS has been on the go for 74 years, long may it continue.

Clubs from here shouldn't have to go to the Central Belt in order to play football.

It's survived with a little as , I think, 8 teams before ( Threave, St Cuth, Tarff, W&B, Creetown, Newton S, Dalb Star and Girvan)  in the 80's ,so it will go on.

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14 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Re Highland League and SoS we need a Scotland-wide approach that doesn't punish teams who happen to be outside the Central Belt with time and money consuming travelling.

I would agree. But simply saying well the Highlands can have North of Scotland league so since there are four points of the compass, the Lowlands must have an East, a West, and a South isn't taking a Scotland wide approach at all.

Quote

Why should , say , a current West League One side moving over to the new WoS get an easier ride than an ambitious SoS team ?

Why should Threave have to travel miles to play in a better standard league when ,say, Lesmahagow, won't have to ?

The whole east -west Central belt- only scenario benefits teams on a geographical basis, not on the basis of ability or ambition.

There's a very simple reason why a D&G league should not be on equal footing as a league that covers Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, etc. It would be extremely lopsided. The current SoSFL dimply does not have the depth to be anywhere near an equal to a WoSFL.

Incorporating the SoSFL as part of the WoS setup gives D&B teams exactly the same opportunities as clubs from Ayrshire whilst still providing a more geographically restricted league for those clubs who want a league to play in without the travelling involved in getting swallowed up and dissapearing into the West.

Edited by Gordon EF
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2 minutes ago, SimonLichtie said:

I'd also point out that as someone with a big interest in junior football (and the future.... or non future of it ;) ) I would always keep in mind that those who follow/ are involved in teams at this level should most of the time be listened too as opposed to told by someone like myself who isn't involved.

It's quite odd to see things have done some sort of weird reverse where upon trying to read what the latest is on junior football, I'm reading about how my SPFL club should be in a regionalised league along with many others with little consideration/ understanding of what anyone involved with these clubs wants.

Just like the vast majority of non league/ junior fans like the regionalisation, I'm fairly certain a vast majority of SPFL fans/ clubs like being national clubs playing in national leagues. Over the past two decades you've seen many clubs/ fans outside of the pyramid lobbying for change in a variety of ways - how many times have you seen fans of SPFL clubs or clubs themselves arguing to be regionalised.....? That tells you all you need to know.

I get your point, although, as it happens your club (Arbroath?) would not be in a regional league, it is and would still be in T2.

It would be interesting to see the results of a properly conducted consultation on the subject - with fans and all clubs given a say.

People generally don't like change - even if it can be shown that their lot would be improved.

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6 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

It's utter nonsense.

You've got teams in tier 6 suddenly promoted to tier 3. It would be a death sentence to any of the full time teams dropping from tier 2 into tier 3.

The entry price in tier 3 is currently £15 while in tier 6 it is around £7/8. The financial setup of these clubs is significantly different.

Doubtful whether any full time teams would drop to Tier 3.

26-28 in the top 2 tiers, there are currently only 22 full time teams in Scotland, plus hybrid Airdrie.

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17 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

Teams playing each other four times a season in league competition is, for me, the very definition of dull in a footballing context so I'm in 100% agreement with you on that. However, you do realise that in a 12 team, Tier 1 league - should you continue with it's present construct - teams will play each other four times a season (four times v teams who finish in your half of the league post split and three times v teams who finish in the other half of the league post split)? Four times a season is four times a season whether it is against the whole league or only against half of it so you are arguing, even if only in some small way, for the continuation of a dull product at the very top of the Pyramid.

Anyway, as has been rightly said - this is a debate on the future of the Junior game so best it is that which is debated and not the wholesale restructuring of the game at the top of the Pyramid as that is hugely unlikely to happen any time soon and is more likely to remain a simple fantasy for long into the foreseeable future.

I know, although there is a stronger argument for smaller numbers in the top leagues (in a small country) to ensure that more games are ar the 'elite' level.

But tbh Hearts v Hamilton and Kilmarnock 4 times a season... and draw them in a cup... just not very good for fans.

Anyway, no harm in floating ideas and 'high-level thinking' which is important (or simple fantasy as you put it) - plus it breaks the tedium of the ongoing detailed discussions which tend to round in circles. 

Immediate focus should be on forming the WoS and getting on with that, fair enough. 

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12 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

100% agree with what you say but

We will need regionalized divisions as some teams will never get far in progression while some teams from the region will be good enough but say a team in the region ptomots to the bigger wider league and does well but after ten years, change in staff, players, committee etc.. and the standard drops they might get relegated and then able to be back to their regional and thus reorganize and grow again.  We don't want any team to fold so helping others to find their level always helps.  This does create problems.
Say we keep the EOS and SOS at tier 6 and a new WOS starts at tier 6, so that's fine. But in a couple of years the SOS standard is still low, as many have stated, not me I may add as I don't know the standards) and a reorganization happens and the SOS drops down a tier7 and feeds into the top WOS. it means the tier 6 WOS will have a team or teams promoted who are further away but as Doon says why hurt teams because they are further away do the WOS might not be just the west but include some of the promising SOS teams.

the whole west region juniors is not regionalized, they used to be and they continue so the whole west could continue the way they are except until tier 6 where the SOS could enter as a feeder. Obviously the SOS and other associations would have to agree with this but I say not right now, keep it the way it is with a new WOS, hopefully , entering in at teir 6

Yes.

Or possibly even expand the South league to cover the entire south of the country, including, say South Ayrshire, Borders etc, then it would be a better standard as a stand alone Tier 6 league 

(Then with regional leagues below it at Tier 7 obviously)

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