Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, ShrimpLok said:

Cambuslang interested in the final paragraph there...

LOL, what it did show is that access to funding was becoming more difficult due to the insularity of the Junior game.

[TFW]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

Fair point and I can understand why Talbot fans are a bit unsure about this situation. I have been critical about Talbot on here but from their point of view it's going to be quite some change. I personally expect that after some time of getting used to it, they will embrace the change and look forward to new challenges, but it's going to be a big change for them and the step for smaller clubs to move in an attempt to improve themselves is a bit easier. They have less to lose.

That's why I don't like to see some people attacking Talbot on here. But that works both ways, I've also seen some Talbot fans (and other fans, not just Talbot!) disrespecting other leagues & smaller clubs. Neither is helpful.

From my own point of view...

I moved north to Scotland in 1991. I had followed Grimsby Town home and away since the 1971-2 season, and had been taken to games by my father long before I became a wage earner.

Disillusionment, not with Grimsby but the professional game in general had led me to start watching non league games occasionally down south instead of the long haul away trip which was becoming increasingly difficult to manage with two young children to bring up as a single parent. I found myself enjoying the non league game even more, and when I headed north it was with a mission to watch the non league game up here. I eventually discovered Talbot after discussing the lack of meaningful non league in the Dumfries area, and was advised to go and watch them if I wanted to see a decent game. Have now been going home and away for 30 years and love the game. When there's no Talbot game am usually found at Kello Rovers, and the odd evening game at Heston Rovers. In short, I love non league football, and what really worries me about the pyramid structure is maybe having to watch league football again if Talbot enter the Pyramid and are successful.

There's nothing wrong with loving non league football, and it's not a case of being unambitious to wish to stay non league. It's common sense. Only so many clubs can become successful before joining the SPFL to then maybe have a successful season or two as the new boys before the inevitable decline. Both Livingston and Hamilton have had crowds of under 1,500 in the SPL already this season, and I don't know how sustainable their positions are with that scenario? Nothing against any club wanting to better themselves, but the path to glory is always littered with accidents along the way.

[AlanCamelonfan]

19 minutes ago, TFW said:

From my own point of view...

I moved north to Scotland in 1991. I had followed Grimsby Town home and away since the 1971-2 season, and had been taken to games by my father long before I became a wage earner.

Disillusionment, not with Grimsby but the professional game in general had led me to start watching non league games occasionally down south instead of the long haul away trip which was becoming increasingly difficult to manage with two young children to bring up as a single parent. I found myself enjoying the non league game even more, and when I headed north it was with a mission to watch the non league game up here. I eventually discovered Talbot after discussing the lack of meaningful non league in the Dumfries area, and was advised to go and watch them if I wanted to see a decent game. Have now been going home and away for 30 years and love the game. When there's no Talbot game am usually found at Kello Rovers, and the odd evening game at Heston Rovers. In short, I love non league football, and what really worries me about the pyramid structure is maybe having to watch league football again if Talbot enter the Pyramid and are successful.

There's nothing wrong with loving non league football, and it's not a case of being unambitious to wish to stay non league. It's common sense. Only so many clubs can become successful before joining the SPFL to then maybe have a successful season or two as the new boys before the inevitable decline. Both Livingston and Hamilton have had crowds of under 1,500 in the SPL already this season, and I don't know how sustainable their positions are with that scenario? Nothing against any club wanting to better themselves, but the path to glory is always littered with accidents along the way.

WHat about being sustainable in a Lowland League. Whos to say you wouldn't end up like linlithgow are now. Everyone so confident of Talbot stampeding everything based on cup ties. Cup football is different than a league. While I dont doubt they could get to Lowland League really quickly. Being in a league potentially in the future with Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow, Camelon, Broxburn, Shire, BSC Glasgow etc won't be as easy as you think

[Tutankhamen]

36 minutes ago, TFW said:

From my own point of view...

I moved north to Scotland in 1991. I had followed Grimsby Town home and away since the 1971-2 season, and had been taken to games by my father long before I became a wage earner.

Disillusionment, not with Grimsby but the professional game in general had led me to start watching non league games occasionally down south instead of the long haul away trip which was becoming increasingly difficult to manage with two young children to bring up as a single parent. I found myself enjoying the non league game even more, and when I headed north it was with a mission to watch the non league game up here. I eventually discovered Talbot after discussing the lack of meaningful non league in the Dumfries area, and was advised to go and watch them if I wanted to see a decent game. Have now been going home and away for 30 years and love the game. When there's no Talbot game am usually found at Kello Rovers, and the odd evening game at Heston Rovers. In short, I love non league football, and what really worries me about the pyramid structure is maybe having to watch league football again if Talbot enter the Pyramid and are successful.

There's nothing wrong with loving non league football, and it's not a case of being unambitious to wish to stay non league. It's common sense. Only so many clubs can become successful before joining the SPFL to then maybe have a successful season or two as the new boys before the inevitable decline. Both Livingston and Hamilton have had crowds of under 1,500 in the SPL already this season, and I don't know how sustainable their positions are with that scenario? Nothing against any club wanting to better themselves, but the path to glory is always littered with accidents along the way.

Junior football in Scotland as such isn't non league football.

Talbot will become non league if/when they move.

[glensmad]

I hate the term "non league" with a passion, as in reality we are all playing in leagues.

I also hate the term "junior" football, as people outside Scotland don't understand it and associate it with kids' football.

I use the terms "semi professional" or "lower league" football, which everybody understands all over the world.

[Marten]

12 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I hate the term "non league" with a passion, as in reality we are all playing in leagues.

I also hate the term "junior" football, as people outside Scotland don't understand it and associate it with kids' football.

I use the terms "semi professional" or "lower league" football, which everybody understands all over the world.

Not just people outside Scotland...

[Ginaro]

8 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I use the terms "semi professional" or "lower league" football, which everybody understands all over the world.

But that doesn't distinguish between SPFL and the regional leagues, as you have lots of part-time clubs and lower leagues to many people will mean Leagues One and Two.

[Tutankhamen]

3 minutes ago, Marten said:

Not just people outside Scotland...

And yet a number of non league clubs in England do use the term

[glensmad]

4 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

But that doesn't distinguish between SPFL and the regional leagues, as you have lots of part-time clubs and lower leagues to many people will mean Leagues One and Two.

That's why it will be so much easier to say "I support a semi-pro team at tier X in the Scottish pyramid", rather than "I support a junior team, but that's not kids, let me explain, it's complicated, you see it works like this........."

[Gordon EF]

Yep. Basically it's been an utterly farcical situation to have two parallel league structures in Scotland for so long where there's roughly similarly sized semi-professional clubs split across both grades. All the work that's gone into creating the pyramid structure has been surprisingly excellent but it doesn't hide the fact that, on a longer time scale, there's been a ludicrous amount of intransigence and parochialism on both sides across Scottish football when it comes to leagure structure.

[Junior Pub League]

1 hour ago, glensmad said:

I hate the term "non league" with a passion, as in reality we are all playing in leagues.

Sitting reading my copy of the Non-League Paper and disagreeing with you

...and you'll be having kittens at their insistance on calling the Conference Tier 1.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Junior Pub League

[tell_me_more]

25 minutes ago, glensmad said:

That's why it will be so much easier to say "I support a semi-pro team at tier X in the Scottish pyramid", rather than "I support a junior team, but that's not kids, let me explain, it's complicated, you see it works like this........."

Something like " I support a team in the Scottish Pyramid East Region 1st Division Conference B, " The sponsors will be tripping over themselves in the queue for that opportunity.

[Pyramidic]

Here we are in February 2020 when Gordon Parks writes that the "Pyramid scheme is ripping game apart and clubs are dying":
 

 

While in June 2018 he was writing:

"Scottish football won't move forward until we stop living in the past - Gordon Parks - Daily Record"

"Gordon believes it's time to focus on the future and stop looking back on glory nights of the past."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/scottish-football-wont-move-forward-12710905

Here is a message for Gordon (and his followers) with regard to the Pyramid Scheme - STOP LIVING IN THE PAST!

Edited February 17, 2020 by Pyramidic

[Burnie_man]

That was discussed yesterday, several pages back, however it won't surprise anyone to learn that he's a complete hypocrite.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Jacksgranda]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

Not just people outside Scotland...

Some of whom make a living reporting on football...

[San Starko Rover]

Fair point and I can understand why Talbot fans are a bit unsure about this situation. I have been critical about Talbot on here but from their point of view it's going to be quite some change. I personally expect that after some time of getting used to it, they will embrace the change and look forward to new challenges, but it's going to be a big change for them and the step for smaller clubs to move in an attempt to improve themselves is a bit easier. They have less to lose.
That's why I don't like to see some people attacking Talbot on here. But that works both ways, I've also seen some Talbot fans (and other fans, not just Talbot!) disrespecting other leagues & smaller clubs. Neither is helpful.

I agree and that’s why I tried to stress my post wasn’t to have a go at Talbot or their fans as they’re rightly proud of the accomplishments of their team on and off the park. However I can see why they’re reluctant to change and certainly won’t be leading the clubs to a WOSFL.

I fully expect Talbot to move if enough teams do as their board are clearly good at ensuring they do the right thing for the club and won’t want to be left behind to join in two years time.

Will they win things most years like now, no they won’t but I’m sure as our Yeovil friend highlights they can still have some great seasons where they win a league or a cup but it’ll be a different challenge to what they are comfortable with at the moment.

Whether any team stays or goes I’m sure there fans and board will be doing what they think is best for their club and hopefully everyone will wish them well.

[cmontheloknow]

One thing not emphasised enough is the Tommy Sloan effect at Talbot. They don't splash the cash every year and sign big names. As a Lok fan, I don't see their incoming and look on with envy - but he makes a team out of them every single year and is on course for 20!! years in charge should he last til Nov 2023. I think Lok have had something like 10 managers in that time - the consistency on and off the park is a big part of the Talbot success story. Pre Tucker they were floundering in the inaugural West Super Premier.

Edited February 17, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[TFW]

2 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

WHat about being sustainable in a Lowland League. Whos to say you wouldn't end up like linlithgow are now. Everyone so confident of Talbot stampeding everything based on cup ties. Cup football is different than a league. While I dont doubt they could get to Lowland League really quickly. Being in a league potentially in the future with Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow, Camelon, Broxburn, Shire, BSC Glasgow etc won't be as easy as you think

It may have escaped your attention but Talbot have a very successful record as a Western Super League team, and have by far the best record of any Super League team in it by a country mile. I don't see teams from the East as being better than those we currently play. On the contrary given our record against the old Eastern Juniors over the last decade or so there would be no palpitations amongst the Talbot support should we end up playing them in league football.

You miss my point though. In my original post I said my concern would be if Talbot were successful and ended up playing in the SPFL, not when we would do so, and I've never said I think the route up the leagues would be easy. Why? Because there are clubs who will inevitably try to buy success, buy all the best players - like Irvine Meadow and Kilwinning did a few years back chasing glory. Faced with such scenarios Talbot would be content to tread water until it was an even playing field again. That's the whole reason am not overly keen on the whole idea, preferring the non league set up, or whatever anybody wants to call it.

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 hours ago, TFW said:

It may have escaped your attention but Talbot have a very successful record as a Western Super League team, and have by far the best record of any Super League team in it by a country mile. I don't see teams from the East as being better than those we currently play. On the contrary given our record against the old Eastern Juniors over the last decade or so there would be no palpitations amongst the Talbot support should we end up playing them in league football.

You miss my point though. In my original post I said my concern would be if Talbot were successful and ended up playing in the SPFL, not when we would do so, and I've never said I think the route up the leagues would be easy. Why? Because there are clubs who will inevitably try to buy success, buy all the best players - like Irvine Meadow and Kilwinning did a few years back chasing glory. Faced with such scenarios Talbot would be content to tread water until it was an even playing field again. That's the whole reason am not overly keen on the whole idea, preferring the non league set up, or whatever anybody wants to call it.

Again ur record against east teams is in cup competitions. Linlithgow had a great record against east teams look where they are now.

That's fine stay out the pyramid and Scottish cup then if you dont want to be it that's whole point of setting up the wosfl so you can stay junior or go

[Ray Patterson]

3 hours ago, tell_me_more said:

Something like " I support a team in the Scottish Pyramid East Region 1st Division Conference B, " The sponsors will be tripping over themselves in the queue for that opportunity.

Tbf saying to a sponsor "We Play in the 6th Tier of Scottish Football and play in the Scottish Cup every season" is far more appealing that "We are a junior team, but you see that's just in reference to the level of football not the age of the players, but wez are bigger than senior teams I promise."