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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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The issue with having an EoS/WoS border (which I agree with) is that it surely follows that there should be a WoS/SoS border. The sensible option is Ayrshire is West and D&G is SoS, but where does that leave Kello (and Bonnyton/Braves if they didn't want to move)?

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2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The issue with having an EoS/WoS border (which I agree with) is that it surely follows that there should be a WoS/SoS border. The sensible option is Ayrshire is West and D&G is SoS, but where does that leave Kello (and Bonnyton/Braves if they didn't want to move)?

There shouldn't be a separate South region at tier 6, it should be a 2 way split between East and West until you get to tier 8. Letting a Dumfries and Galloway pub league stay at tier 6 because it's a historical anomaly is daft.

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11 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

There shouldn't be a separate South region at tier 6, it should be a 2 way split between East and West until you get to tier 8. Letting a Dumfries and Galloway pub league stay at tier 6 because it's a historical anomaly is daft.

The team that won that 'pub league' a couple of years ago is now a mid table Lowland side, sitting above a good few former EoS sides

Canny be that much of a 'pub league'.

Edited by Doonhamer1969
typo
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2 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

There shouldn't be a separate South region at tier 6, it should be a 2 way split between East and West until you get to tier 8. Letting a Dumfries and Galloway pub league stay at tier 6 because it's a historical anomaly is daft.

I agree with this, but for practical reasons it's likely to be an incremental process - once the big West teams are on board it's easier to go for LL East/West at Tier 6 and then gradually ease them down a tier or two to place them alongside Glasgow/Lanarkshire/Ayrshire leagues or whatever.

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2 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

The team that won that 'pub league' a couple of years ago is now a mid table Lowland side, sitting above a goof few former EoS sides

Canny be that much of a 'pub league'.

Caley Braves? They won it with a bunch of French students and moved to the Central Belt as soon as they could, turning over the entire team who won the pub league. They won the league, hardly an argument for it being strong if a freakshow club can pitch up and finish ahead of "Mid Annandale" and "Dumfries YMCA".

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4 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

The team that won that 'pub league' a couple of years ago is now a mid table Lowland side, sitting above a goof few former EoS sides

Canny be that much of a 'pub league'.

You mean the team that literally joined the SoS purely because it was a piss easy route into the Lowland League?

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Have Heriot-Watt University, Whitburn, Pumpherston chosen to apply for the WoSFL? If they do apply will they be accepted by the organisers this year, or by a majority of its league members in future years?

I think the point is, if you don’t have a demarcation line between the proposed WoSFL and the EoSFL then what Burnie_man instances could happen with these clubs is, without doubt, a distinct possibility. Surely you do understand that?

Further, if clubs believe that they might have a choice to apply to one league over another to get them a Tier or two higher in the Pyramid and there are people out there who think that this isn’t factoring into the thoughts of those clubs then it is they who are the fantasists.

WRSJFA clubs to a new WoSFL (should it happen) and ERSJFA south of Tay clubs to the EoSFL, it really is and should be that simple. I’m sure that those involved in setting up the proposed WoSFL will see it pretty much in that way too.
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7 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

There shouldn't be a separate South region at tier 6, it should be a 2 way split between East and West until you get to tier 8. Letting a Dumfries and Galloway pub league stay at tier 6 because it's a historical anomaly is daft.

14th September 2019 

SFA South Region Challenge Cup (2nd Round) Burntisland Shipyard 1-2 Threave Rovers
SFA South Region Challenge Cup (2nd Round) Peebles Rovers 2-3 Nithsdale Wanderers
SFA South Region Challenge Cup (2nd Round) Tweedmouth Rangers 1-2 Upper Annandale
SFA South Region Challenge Cup (2nd Round) Bonnyton Thistle 5-2 Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

No bad for a 'pub' league.

EoS 1 must be a pub league too, by that definition.

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58 minutes ago, BS7 said:

If you haven’t seen these, it’s a helpful visualization of non league Scottish football:

https://www.easymapmaker.com/map/nonleaguescotland

Here's one I maintain as well: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1k4xWEiA6DvPhdnfOqT835ybt52xQ4Grr&ll=56.965619412276396%2C-3.433614900000066&z=7

37 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

I would suggest any club who are currently out of the pyramid, who had the choice between the possibility of playing at tier 6 in the west against the likes of petershill and clydebank or against tweedmouth and peebles at tier 8 in the east would most definitely choose tier 6 west in a heartbeat.

To think this wont form part of any decision is either very naive at best or stupid at worst. Of course it will form a decision of a club.

 

 

Sure, but if Fauldhouse left the ERJFA then others in West Lothian might follow, and the remaining Fife juniors may choose to join the EOS. So you then have a different comparison - one where joining the EOS at tier 8 could mean conferences featuring mostly ex-Junior teams and a few EOS clubs, with a good chance of promotion to tier 7.

Problem is unless everyone goes together in both the east and west then the goalposts are constantly moving when considering where to go! :1eye

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Likely Tier 8 clubs from the EOS next year if it happens: Tweedmouth Rangers, Arniston Rangers, Hawick Royal Albert United, Peebles Rovers, Easthouses Lilly MW, Craigroyston, Ormiston, and Burntisland Shipyard.
I mean they're free to apply. Get to jump up to Tier 6. Absolutely nothing to stop them. How many do you see applying to the WoSFL in the first place?
There are also clubs who may end up tier 7 (dependant on what happens re conferences) who might also fancy taking the chance and jumping a level.

Whilst it might not happen, the fact it could happen should probably be addressed should it not?
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4 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:


I think the point is, if you don’t have a demarcation line between the proposed WoSFL and the EoSFL then what Burnie_man instances could happen with these clubs is, without doubt, a distinct possibility. Surely you do understand that?

  • Kello Rovers West Region over SoSFL
  • Girvan for 30 odd years in the SoSFL instead of the Ayrshire Juniors for the most part.
  • Montrose Roselea moving to the North Region instead of East Region
  • Inverness City moving from the NCL to the North Region.
  • Dunipace either playing in the West Region over choosing to move the EoSFL.

Just because somebody can do something doesn't mean they actually do and the examples will be few and far between.

Suddenly we have a horde of clubs sitting outside the pyramid that not only want to join but want to join a league that's outside their traditional area. Even though one of the main reasons they are outside the pyramid is because they wanted to stay in their traditional area.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

With the exception of LTHV, every one of those sides would be at tier 8 in a linear EOS. That's exactly the level I would have the SoS at.

How did "Mid Annandale" do against fellow tier 6 side Musselburgh?

You got something against Lockerbie ?

Point is, its not a pub league, no worse than Tier 7.

Why should it be penalised because of geography ?

Bonnyton havent won it yet, and yet elsewhere on this thread folk are talking about them being in the same league as Auchinleck Talbot at Tier 6.

Gonna be a hell of a jump for a 'pub league' team.

Ps check some of the other posts re the North. Folk talking about NCL at Tier 6.....

Threave Rovers would run up a cricket score in Tain.

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13 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

If it was that 'piss easy' , how come they didnt win it at a canter in the first season ?

From memory their first attempt was largely predicated on the French who didn't arrive en Ecosse until Octoberish, thus meaning they were reliant on ammy players filling in until then. Even then, they came second behind St Cuthbert's who declined promotion and 15 points or so ahead of third place.

While they didn't win it at a canter, they certainly came second at one.

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Bonnyton, playing in front of 20 fans, would get absolutely ragdolled in the WRJFA  top flight with their current team. They would get single figure points. Depending on the make up of a WoS next season I would be astonished if they didn't get relegated.

There are no competitor leagues in the North for the NCL to go in at tier 6 as it stands. The SoS will have a geographical overlap with a new WoS. Why should a Dumfries and Galloway league with double figure attendances and a shocking standard of football remain at that level?

The fact you're beating off over Threave beating Burntisland by a single goal tells you everything about the comparative standards. People love to put the boot into the Juniors but the SoS being at tier 6 is a historic accident of coincidence and there is no reason that should continue. 

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3 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

There are also clubs who may end up tier 7 (dependant on what happens re conferences) who might also fancy taking the chance and jumping a level.

Whilst it might not happen, the fact it could happen should probably be addressed should it not?

And how many actually think that way?

"Hey, if we go and join the WoSFL we get to go into Tier 6 of the Scottish Football Pyramid. It was such a wonderous life changing experience last year. I want another taste of it. Don't care if we end up in Tier 7 the following year with a bunch of Ayrshire clubs. If that happens we'll just move back to the EoSFL."

And it is addressed by the fact that a club actually has to apply. Then be accepted.

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  • Kello Rovers West Region over SoSFL
  • Girvan for 30 odd years in the SoSFL instead of the Ayrshire Juniors for the most part.
  • Montrose Roselea moving to the North Region instead of East Region
  • Inverness City moving from the NCL to the North Region.
  • Dunipace either playing in the West Region over choosing to move the EoSFL.
Just because somebody can do something doesn't mean they actually do and the examples will be few and far between.

Suddenly we have a horde of clubs sitting outside the pyramid that not only want to join but want to join a league that's outside their traditional area. Even though one of the main reasons they are outside the pyramid is because they wanted to stay in their traditional area.

I really don’t understand the argument you’re putting forward? Just because clubs haven’t taken advantage of picking and choosing previously doesn’t mean they won’t in the future should the opportunity present itself.

 

Why leave it to the whim of what clubs may or may not think, however unlikely the unthinkable might be, when a simple statement saying WRSJFA = WoSFL and ERSJFA = EoSFL takes care of the matter? Why wouldn’t you expect that, no matter how unlikely you believe a club taking advantage of it not being a requirement might be? As I’ve already stated, I rather suspect this will already be in the minds of those who will be tasked with making the WoSFL happen.

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1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The irony is that some of the people who are most insistent that Fauldhouse should have to go east are the same people that thought flexibility would and should apply on Luncarty in another relatively recent thread despite their registered ground being north of the Tay bridge latitude boundary. There's nothing on boundaries in the EoS and LL constitutions so far. The only place a fixed boundary gets mentioned is on the SPFL rules related to the Club 42 playoff. If Tweedmouth teams can play in the EoS and LL, how can people complain about clubs within a mile tops from Lanarkshire winding up in the west? I'd set a distance limit on flexibility. Harthill and Luncarty for sure no problems. Fauldhouse or Tayport is pushing it a bit. Whitburn and Armadale would be starting to get into taking the piss territory.

Luncarty and Fauldhouse are 2 completely separate cases. And why even mention Tweedmouth? Obviously, there can be a debate on whether or not they should be in Scottish football as they are actually located in England, but there is precedent for clubs from that area playing in Scotland and the EOS is the obvious league for them to go to with some EOS clubs nearby.

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