Junior football, what is the future?

[Dev]

In my opinion the stable door was opened up by Kelty and then Dalkeith in the east. They wished to make progress as clubs and were fortunate that, in the east, there was already a senior league in existence and within the Pyramid. They were able to leave the juniors because they had a route out of it which they could take and they chose to do just that.

It's all about freedom of choice. In the west there is no freedom to choose.

If junior clubs are happy just where they are then, in my view, that's fair enough. However, surely the SJFA and the west junior league cannot be afraid of there being a choice for semi-pro clubs in the west i.e. an independent senior league within the Pyramid so why would they need to object if one is formed? They would still have the responsibility for catering for the remaining juniors. Isn't that why they exist in the first place?

[Salvo Montalbano]

There is still no need for WOSL, there's a ready made feeder system ready to bolt on to the Pyramid. It just needs some people to remove the blinkers and recognize that, and if they want to safeguard what's left of the SJFA they need to let it happen.

See I'm not sure I agree. There seems to be, for whatever reason, some clubs who don't want anything to do with the pyramid (even though they would be playing mostly the same clubs in the division they are currently in and don't need a license of floodlights or whatever) so for that reason alone I've come to think that any clubs who feel that way should be left to their own devices outside the pyramid. If this is called the Juniors and a WoS League gets set up, I'd say that is the best solution.

[Beenzon-Toste]

See I'm not sure I agree. There seems to be, for whatever reason, some clubs who don't want anything to do with the pyramid (even though they would be playing mostly the same clubs in the division they are currently in and don't need a license of floodlights or whatever) so for that reason alone I've come to think that any clubs who feel that way should be left to their own devices outside the pyramid. If this is called the Juniors and a WoS League gets set up, I'd say that is the best solution.

The clubs that you are referring to may never get to the point where they are looking for a license, so they might still be in the same league, playing the same teams, but what will happen is that every competition that they are involved in will be devalued by a WoS league, because of the loss of the clubs that go to that league. The WRSJFA clubs should be thinking about solidarity with their own clubs not another region. If the SJFA is to have any future it must let the WRSJFA stay intact and allow them in at Tier 6.

[FairWeatherFan]

39 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

53 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

See I'm not sure I agree. There seems to be, for whatever reason, some clubs who don't want anything to do with the pyramid (even though they would be playing mostly the same clubs in the division they are currently in and don't need a license of floodlights or whatever) so for that reason alone I've come to think that any clubs who feel that way should be left to their own devices outside the pyramid. If this is called the Juniors and a WoS League gets set up, I'd say that is the best solution.

The clubs that you are referring to may never get to the point where they are looking for a license, so they might still be in the same league, playing the same teams, but what will happen is that every competition that they are involved in will be devalued by a WoS league, because of the loss of the clubs that go to that league. The WRSJFA clubs should be thinking about solidarity with their own clubs not another region. If the SJFA is to have any future it must let the WRSJFA stay intact and allow them in at Tier 6.

For me this is the point that no one in the Junior game as been vocal in representing. Joining the pyramid isn't about getting a licence or getting into the SPFL. It's about not getting left behind into what blurs more and more into a well organised amateur league. You've already seen the East Region split into Regional set ups. It wouldn't surprise me to see the West Region end up in Central and Ayrshire leagues with a Super League on top. No Superleague First Division and not enough sides for two Central Divisions.

If the West Region had voted to go it alone the only thing they would have lost was the Junior Cup. With one club possibly getting promoted from the Premiership every year. That's basically it.

Now its looking like the promotion and relegation battles of this year might be for nothing. As it has the potential ot be ripped up like the East Region was with clubs moving elsewhere. I wonder who might be the West's Whitburn? A club that was meant to be relegated to the 3rd Tier of their Region only to be shuffled into the 1st Tier.

[wow-wee]

I think if today's meeting ends up being a stalemate then if the LL or EOSL make an announcement that they are setting up a WOSL then there would be a good 20 or more club's would register to join. And if a few more East junior clubs move over to the eosl then that would finish the junior association completely.

[EdinburghBlue]

The west issue needs to be sorted out quickly. We can’t continue with a destination league for east clubs being relegated from the LL, but not for clubs from the west. If the answer is the SoS league then fine, but then make it clear that it’s the league for the whole of the west and that the SoS land EoS between them cover the whole of the LL catchment area. It will then follow that the SoS is the route into the pyramid for any west team that wants to pursue this. If not the SoS then a WoSL needs to be urgently set up, the boundaries between it and the south and east leagues demarcated, and the west juniors told that the LL feeders are the only way to join the pyramid.

[Burnie_man]

OK from what I understand..............

LL proposed WoSFL as expected. EoS backed it. LL opposed "option Z"

TJ opposed WoSFL as expected saying none of his members were interested in moving to a senior league.

TJ opposed WRJFA entering themselves as it was “all-in or none in” at tier 6.

LL opposed SJFA entering en-masse.

Petrie closed meeting by saying no point in further PWG meetings as going round in circles.

Stalemate. No further PWG arranged at his point.

So those clubs in the west who are very interested but have kept their heads down so far, you’re going to have to start making a noise if that is what you want.  I suspect the LL/EoS will still help get a league off the ground for next season and run it if it is shown that there is a demand and TJ is talking pish.   The only other options are for the WRJFA to go their own way, or clubs join the SoS/EoS.

The SJFA aren’t going to take you into the Pyramid next season, or perhaps ever.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

OK from what I understand..............

LL proposed WoSFL as expected. EoS backed it. LL opposed "option Z"

TJ opposed WoSFL as expected saying none of his members were interested in moving to a senior league.

TJ opposed WRJFA entering themselves as it was “all-in or none in” at tier 6.

LL opposed SJFA entering en-masse.

Petrie closed meeting by saying no point in further PWG meetings as going round in circles.

Stalemate. No further PWG arranged at his point.

So those clubs in the west who are very interested but have kept their heads down so far, you’re going to have to start making a noise if that is what you want.  I suspect the LL/EoS will still help get a league off the ground for next season and run it if it is shown that there is a demand and TJ is talking pish.   The only other options are for the WRJFA to go their own way, or clubs join the SoS/EoS.

The SJFA aren’t going to take you into the Pyramid next season, or perhaps ever.

If the PWG is dead then there's nothing to stop the pyramid leagues proposing the WoSFL. It's what BSC Glasgow wanted to do all the way back in December 2017. Now there looks like there will be serious interest.

Edited January 29, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[sweep]

6 hours ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Amazed that the WRSJFA clubs are blindly following the SJFA commandment of Option Z. Sticking with is going to backfire on them big time. Staying loyal to the ERSJFA whilst they have sat back and watched as clubs left and others are set to follow will ultimately lead to the end of Junior football. The WRSJFA have 2 choices now. Leave and form the WOSL with all clubs going in under a breakaway banner or get in under Option W.
The WRSJFA clubs need to do whatever is best for them and not what's best for others.

I have been against this from day one. What have I said all along ?and all I got was people disagreeing. It was NEVER going to happen under this proposal. Think junior

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If the PWG is dead then there's nothing to stop the pyramid leagues proposing the WoSFL. It's what BSC Glasgow wanted to do all the way back in December 2017. Now there looks like there will be serious interest.

That's my reading of it, but I think the LL need to be certain there's demand before doing anything about it.   If they think there isn't any, then LL2 could be a goer I suppose.

[sweep]

Dead in the water . Think South of Scotland league or forget it. BAA, BAA, BAA

[stanley]

14 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Petrie closed meeting by saying no point in further PWG meetings as going round in circles.

Pretty pathetic.  Shouldn't someone from the SFA be trying to do something about this?  Shouldn't he be suggesting setting up a WoS?  I don't really see what the SFA are actually doing to further the pyramid.

Time to set up the West of Scotland League.

[Guest]

So none of the sjfa membership are interested in a senior league.....remind me again what joining the pyramid means in terms of the league you play in?

 

Another tj masterclass. Keeps his job and screws over his loyal members.....again.

 

Who would have thought option z wouldn't fly.....

 

Over to you junior clubs, sometimes the only way to get the change you desire is to force it to happen.

 

 

 

 

[stanley]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

That's my reading of it, but I think the LL need to be certain there's demand before doing anything about it.   If they think there isn't any, then LL2 could be a goer I suppose.

A LL2 could still work to some extent.  Pushes the SoS down a tier.  Likely to open up more relegation spots from the LL.  Final chance for the west juniors to move across to tier 6 if it was to happen.

[Guest]

Why would a LL 2 be any different to setting up a wosfl? there are clubs who play tier 6 and 7 pyramid right now who have their licence or are going through the process to get one, I would like to think they would be given preference for entry into a LL2 over clubs who haven't committed to the pyramid.

 

 

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Why would a LL 2 be any different to setting up a wosfl? there are clubs who play tier 6 and 7 pyramid right now who have their licence or are going through the process to get one, I would like to think they would be given preference for entry into a LL2 over clubs who haven't committed to the pyramid.

I tend to agree.  That said, the LL/SFA need to know there is a demand from clubs in the west for a senior league.  Seems like the LL aren't going to spend any time on a WoSFL unless they know it will get off the ground.  Hence why their focus may turn back towards LL2 which has never been off the table from what I'm told, gives existing west LL clubs a softer landing if relegated given no WoSFL.

[Eddie Hitler]

13 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

So none of the sjfa membership are interested in a senior league.....remind me again what joining the pyramid means in terms of the league you play in?

 

Another tj masterclass. Keeps his job and screws over his loyal members.....again.

 

Who would have thought option z wouldn't fly.....

 

Over to you junior clubs, sometimes the only way to get the change you desire is to force it to happen.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, they don't want to join a senior league but, hang on, if they did it has to be "one in, all in". 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Wonder how TJ can say that when Clydebank mandated at their egm that the club must join a senior league if option becomes available?

[FairWeatherFan]

I think the LL2 right now is too messy to solve the problem of a proper West feeder right now. You have to run with the idea of a WoSFL since LL and EoS have shown previous support for setting one up. I'm not sure how the likes of the Matt Bamford can continue long term as President of the West Region while representing a club that wishes to move senior. So there will be some breakaway within the West Region.

For me the LL/EoS/SoS Confirm how the WoSFL will operate within the pyramid playoff. One promotion spot / Two promotion spots? That's going to be a common question.

Set basic expectations for how it will operate. A bit like the pros and cons list that kefc may have put together for joining the EoSFL.

• Tier 6 entry single division up to 18 clubs / Split conferences for a year if too many.
• Access to the SFA South Region Challenge Cup (70 clubs contest the 2019/20 edition)
• Access to the Alba Cup against SOSFL non-SFA members. The winner contests the South and East Cup Winners Shield as a qualifier to the Scottiish Cup
• Access to the LL Development League
• League Cup competition contested by WoSFL clubs.
• Access to SFA Licencing process.

Set a deadline. Organise a meeting with enough time before that to answer any questions.

Worse case if not interest change the LL pyramid playoff so that the EoS licenced Champions and SoS licenced Champions are guaranteed automatic promotion. Direct any notes of interest in the WoSFL to the SoSFL to apply to. If the SoS has a single season pathway to the Lowland League there will be some clubs that take it up. Then the SoS eventually morphs into more of a West of Scotland League by default.

[PastyMan]

On 20/01/2020 at 10:32, LongTimeLurker said:

It's not my posts you need to worry about, because my views don't matter in the big scheme of things. It's what Rod Petrie and the SFA are doing that matters and their actions are fully consistent with implementing Option Z ASAP. Over and out for a few hours.

Contender for this year's "Done Deal"?