Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

26 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

We'll be logical when it suits us on the ERSJFA and expedient when it suits us on the SoS, and apply rigid boundaries at the Tay bridge when it suits us, but suddenly not care about having boundaries when it suits us and any mention of the SJFA leads to this sort of thin

Feel sorry for Rod Petrie. Explaining the advantages of Option Z to some of the people involved is probably as futile as explaining quantum physics to a goldfish.

Lurker is entering the lost it phase again 

[gaz5]

Lurker is entering the lost it phase again  [emoji1787]

That implies he'd ever "found it" in the first place. [emoji1787]

[Guest]

We'll be logical when it suits us on the ERSJFA and expedient when it suits us on the SoS, and apply rigid boundaries at the Tay bridge when it suits us, but suddenly not care about having boundaries when it suits us and any mention of the SJFA leads to this sort of thing:
even though all the SJFA actually really does is organise a national cup competition that is highly unlikely to remain intact for long in its current form once the clubs involved are in the pyramid.
Feel sorry for Rod Petrie. Explaining the advantages of Option Z to some of the people involved is probably as futile as explaining quantum physics to a goldfish.

We got there eventually.... We all knew where you were setting up to head about 1766 posts before you got there.

The journey was a blast though....

It's duck season, its rabbit season, its the eos leagues fault, it's the LL's fault, we can change things when it suits.....

Whatever will you produce next, its so exciting!

[FairWeatherFan]

40 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

We'll be logical when it suits us on the ERSJFA and expedient when it suits us on the SoS, and apply rigid boundaries at the Tay bridge when it suits us, but suddenly not care about having boundaries when it suits us and any mention of the SJFA leads to this sort of thing:

even though all the SJFA actually really does is organise a national cup competition that is highly unlikely to remain intact for long in its current form once the clubs involved are in the pyramid.

Feel sorry for Rod Petrie. Explaining the advantages of Option Z to some of the people involved is probably as futile as explaining quantum physics to a goldfish.

I've always heard there are boundaries between the West Region, East Region and North Region. Yet when Montrose Roselea asked to join the North Region they were allowed. The club wanted it and the North Region were willing to accept them. It didn't matter that it left Breachin Victoria further North and yet still playing in the East Region. I don't think the SJFA ever broke into "hysterics" over it.

If Dunipace had asked to move from the West Region into the East Region I imagine it would of been accepted as well. Certainly not dismissed with the two Regions, SJFA and club having a discussion over it. Same if a Harthill or Fauldhouse had applied to go the other way.

The boundary between the Highland and Lowland is required to try and provide a balance between the two and not stretch either league to extremes. Its also easier to cut a country in half than to split it into thirds. Pick a line of longitude and you could have Dumfries in the East of Scotland. Pick councils and they could change over time.

As for Option Z, are there pros? Yes. Are there also cons? Yes. Can a tier 6 WoS in 2020/21 ultimately lead to the same headline ending of a West/East of the Lowland League at tier 5? Yes.

LL/EoS/SoS apparent preference:

• West of Scotland League at tier 6 for 2020/21.
• Promotion and Relegation between the Lowland League at Tier 5 and WoSL/EoSL/SoSL
• West clubs within the pyramid so actively pursuing licencing to allow for promotion. Small licencing department isn't stretched as much.
• WoSL entry into the South Region Challenge Cup boosting it from 70 clubs to ?? taking it closer to a National Cup competition for clubs outwith the SPFL that can fit into the senior calendar.
• Eventual WoSL presence on Non-Professional Game Board. Gives them a voice in the running of the game and eventually PWG once own board is in place.
• Move PWG discussions on to a new focus such as renegotiating the SPFL pyramid playoff. Which would allow for a West/East split of the Lowland League.

SJFA apparent preference:

• Lowland League pyramid play-off remains the same in 2020-21 retaining the lopsided nature.
• A 133 clubs from across the country gaining access to licencing. Small licencing department is all over the country potentially.
• The PWG and Non-Professional Game Board remains the same.
• Negotiate changes to the SPFL pyramid play-off in a single season time frame.
• If no changes to the pyramid is agreed for 2021-22. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Che Dail]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Lurker is entering the lost it phase again 

Is she Isa?

[LongTimeLurker]

[Marshmallo]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The ironing is delicious

[santheman]

7 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

The ironing is delicious

Predictive texting is even better

[Kemlin Dan]

The only way the junior teams will get entry next season 20/21 is by application, the offer by the LL/Eos last year to help set up a west feeder at tier 6 should still be on the table, the east juniors that apply will be in whatever is voted on for the structure of 20/21 season if that's conferences or tier 7,8,9 etc

1 feeder from west/east/south into LL

More or less option W but with the EOS teams getting to vote on structure there is no reason why it cant be Tier 7,8,9 coming right down from west and east under the 3 main feeders to the LL IF the full juniors come across.

I can see a glimmer of hope that the west will get enough applicants to get Tier 6 started and a few applicants from the East moving into what ever the EOS votes for 20/21.

The SJFA will hold onto whatever it can to preserve its name and whatever else is going on with them but at the determent to its association over a number of years,  in my opinion this is the last year for the SJFA to come onboard and keep their association within the pyramid.

My opinion is largely based on I believe that West Clubs will come out and apply for Tier 6 and leave the SJFA ranks

[Marten]

On 25/01/2020 at 11:30, Marshmallo said:

Folk in Scotland think that "junior football" and "non league football" are identical synonyms. I've got pals (no laughing at the back) who go to watch Linlithgow, Bo'ness or Camelon who will refer to it as "the juniors" even though the teams have moved association. 

When these people hear "junior" they think terracing, being able to get a pint at half time, entry for a fiver, no segregation, local derbies, weans kicking a ball on the park at half time. When they hear "senior" they think stewards, 20 quid a ticket, plastic seats, having to travel up to the Highlands once a month for a league game.

Until that perception is ended then this will end up going round and round in circles and junior stalwarts will refuse to move because they think ticket prices will be forced to increase, they'll lose their derbies or the experience will become 'sanitised'. It seems daft to me but ultimately the people with these views are the people who will need to shift their clubs into the pyramid. 

Of course if the WRJFA were genuinely interested in pyramid integration they could ask a couple of guys from clubs in the East who made the move to come and speak at meetings to explain the differences, or lack thereof. The fact the WRJFA blazers haven't set anything like this up tells you everything about their motivations.

The media perception of it doesn't help either, they consistently only call the SPFL clubs "senior". Just at the start of this season I corrected a journalist on Twitter who said something like Berwick Rangers are out of senior football and Cove were about to make their debut in senior football. When I politely replied saying that the HL & LL are also senior so Cove have been senior from the moment they joined the HL and Berwick are still senior, I got a rude comment back that I was just being pedantic and everyone knew what he meant.

If the media don't even use the correct terms, the average football fan won't either...

[GNU_Linux]

The media perception of it doesn't help either, they consistently only call the SPFL clubs "senior". Just at the start of this season I corrected a journalist on Twitter who said something like Berwick Rangers are out of senior football and Cove were about to make their debut in senior football. When I politely replied saying that the HL & LL are also senior so Cove have been senior from the moment they joined the HL and Berwick are still senior, I got a rude comment back that I was just being pedantic and everyone knew what he meant.
If the media don't even use the correct terms, the average football fan won't either...

That was Jim Spence iirc

[archieb]

8 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

34 minutes ago, Marten said:

The media perception of it doesn't help either, they consistently only call the SPFL clubs "senior". Just at the start of this season I corrected a journalist on Twitter who said something like Berwick Rangers are out of senior football and Cove were about to make their debut in senior football. When I politely replied saying that the HL & LL are also senior so Cove have been senior from the moment they joined the HL and Berwick are still senior, I got a rude comment back that I was just being pedantic and everyone knew what he meant.
If the media don't even use the correct terms, the average football fan won't either...

That was Jim Spence iirc

Chic Young & co on BBC Radio Scotland 'Open All Mikes' regularly use similar terminology.

[Marten]

29 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

55 minutes ago, Marten said:

The media perception of it doesn't help either, they consistently only call the SPFL clubs "senior". Just at the start of this season I corrected a journalist on Twitter who said something like Berwick Rangers are out of senior football and Cove were about to make their debut in senior football. When I politely replied saying that the HL & LL are also senior so Cove have been senior from the moment they joined the HL and Berwick are still senior, I got a rude comment back that I was just being pedantic and everyone knew what he meant.
If the media don't even use the correct terms, the average football fan won't either...

That was Jim Spence iirc

Yes, pretty sure it was him indeed.

[Blackie Gold]

8 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Is she Isa?

No! Isa is now a raging nationalist on Facebook.

[Che Dail]

11 minutes ago, Blackie Gold said:

No! Isa is now a raging nationalist on Facebook.

At least she's still ragin'!

[teamfinderscot]

There’s plenty benefits going to pyramid. I enjoy the EoS setup having played there, also enjoy the juniors as well. Currently the big teams have pushed on +1/2 maybe punching above their weight in eos. The medium to small teams most have moved and maybe some may prefer eos but the quality of football in my opinion isn’t any better. For some teams possibly worse. The east regions is getting a bad write up but most teams in the super leagues are gathering bigger crowds than in the eosfl conferences. I’d expect most super league teams to win at least half their matches in these conferences also without being disrespectful. I support football at all levels but the juniors I feel should stay the juniors as it’s got that nostalgia and a proper community feel that a lot of senior clubs maybe don’t have. Also there’s not currently enough clubs eligible for a licence for the Scottish cup so would be replacing the magic of the junior cup for a secondary trophy (unsure what would be called if all teams moved) which won’t mean as much to the fans, again no disrespect intended. I’m a lot younger than those people who wish to stay loyal to the grade. I just feel it’s a massive step and it could maybe signal the end for a few smaller teams. Craigroyston say they will cease at end of season, Eyemouth have taken a non playing membership. The grass isn’t always greener folks. However for the ambitious clubs with plenty money and support I’m sure they could go and do a grand job and compete. Even look at Linlithgow in the top east of Scotland league. They used to be in hat for junior cup for many seasons and have struggled a lot this season. If you look at juniors websites and how fixtures are compiled now. It’s like last year the max exodus was the boot up the backside it needed to get with the times.

[stanley]

Good to see someone articulating why they prefer the juniors rather than simply saying it's "unique".

I still don't see why any teams would lose their community feel by turning senior.  I don't think that aspect has anything to do with being senior or junior.  The South Region Challenge Cup won't have the prestige just now of the Junior Cup but they could possibly find a way to incorporate the Junior Cup into the new set up if everyone moved over (the South Region Challenge Cup would effectively end up being the same as the old Junior Cup but with the traditional senior non-league clubs in it anyway but I take your point that the Junior Cup means something more to junior fans).  

Why would it be the end for smaller clubs?  They'd largely be playing the same clubs as before.  I also don't think clubs like Eyemouth or Craigroyston are folding because they are senior.  Smaller non-league clubs in the east fold in both set ups.  Falkirk Juniors, Ballingry Rovers, Steelend Victoria, Bankfoot Athletic and Arbroath Sporting Club all gone in the past 10 years in the east juniors.   Eyemouth, Selkirk, Duns and Kelso gone in the east seniors.  Smaller clubs sometimes fold; I don't think it's connected to if they senior or junior.

[Guest]

Craigroyston have confirmed they will have a new manager next year. Eyemouth is a outlying example of a club folding. Most of the teams who have moved have seen their attendances increase from when they were junior. The standard of football is most definitely better and there is no less nostalgia now my club are classed as senior.

 

Linlithgow are struggling because of numerous factors, nothing to do with moving to the eos. Look at all the other clubs who have progressed and managed to operate at a much better level than they had within the junior set up.

 

Whilst you are very much entitled to your view, using the odd example to explain an unidentifiable form of nostalgia and community within junior football isn't really valid for me.

 

Clubs who move would be playing the same teams they would do by staying. This really does distract from the actual point of the whole debate.

 

There’s plenty benefits going to pyramid. I enjoy the EoS setup having played there, also enjoy the juniors as well. Currently the big teams have pushed on +1/2 maybe punching above their weight in eos. The medium to small teams most have moved and maybe some may prefer eos but the quality of football in my opinion isn’t any better. For some teams possibly worse. The east regions is getting a bad write up but most teams in the super leagues are gathering bigger crowds than in the eosfl conferences. I’d expect most super league teams to win at least half their matches in these conferences also without being disrespectful. I support football at all levels but the juniors I feel should stay the juniors as it’s got that nostalgia and a proper community feel that a lot of senior clubs maybe don’t have. Also there’s not currently enough clubs eligible for a licence for the Scottish cup so would be replacing the magic of the junior cup for a secondary trophy (unsure what would be called if all teams moved) which won’t mean as much to the fans, again no disrespect intended. I’m a lot younger than those people who wish to stay loyal to the grade. I just feel it’s a massive step and it could maybe signal the end for a few smaller teams. Craigroyston say they will cease at end of season, Eyemouth have taken a non playing membership. The grass isn’t always greener folks. However for the ambitious clubs with plenty money and support I’m sure they could go and do a grand job and compete. Even look at Linlithgow in the top east of Scotland league. They used to be in hat for junior cup for many seasons and have struggled a lot this season. If you look at juniors websites and how fixtures are compiled now. It’s like last year the max exodus was the boot up the backside it needed to get with the times.

 

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

Yes, pretty sure it was him indeed.

Spence is a well-known arsehole to be fair.

[parsforlife]

39 minutes ago, teamfinderscot said:

. The east regions is getting a bad write up but most teams in the super leagues are gathering bigger crowds than in the eosfl conferences. I’d expect most super league teams to win at least half their matches in these conferences also without being disrespectful. I support football at all levels but the juniors I feel should stay the juniors as it’s got that nostalgia and a proper community feel that a lot of senior clubs maybe don’t have. Also there’s not currently enough clubs eligible for a licence for the Scottish cup so would be replacing the magic of the junior cup for a secondary trophy (unsure what would be called if all teams moved) which won’t mean as much to the fans, again no disrespect intended. I’m a lot younger than those people who wish to stay loyal to the grade. I just feel it’s a massive step and it could maybe signal the end for a few smaller teams. Craigroyston say they will cease at end of season, Eyemouth have taken a non playing membership. The grass isn’t always greener folks. However for the ambitious clubs with plenty money and support I’m sure they could go and do a grand job and compete. Even look at Linlithgow in the top east of Scotland league. They used to be in hat for junior cup for many seasons and have struggled a lot this season. If you look at juniors websites and how fixtures are compiled now. It’s like last year the max exodus was the boot up the backside it needed to get with the times.

. Where to start.    

the current EJFA super league crowds are not much different to the conference crowds, for the clubs that moved they are typically up.

The magic of the junior cup might exist in historic memories of tayport or Whitburn (neither side has been anywhere near the later stages this decade) but for everyone else it was never a tournament for them, they’ll not miss it.   In terms of prestige I’m not sure the junior cup is any bigger than the south challenge, for talbot, beith, arthurlie, pollok and lochee you have kelty, Berwick, Spartans, Bonnyrigg, Bo’ness etc

Linlithgow struggling started before they moved. They are a club at a low point just now but that’s football, for every club at a high there’s another at a low, by definition.  

eyemouth and craigroyston struggles are far from ideal but as pointed out aren’t unique to senior football and both have a good chance of playing EoS games again next year. 

As for the idea of killing smaller teams or juniors having more community support is absolutely B.S, it’s absolutely madness to say EoS clubs don’t have community at their heart or that small clubs don’t exist in EoS. How can you argue EJFA contains bigger sides yet also say they wouldn’t survive in EoS when all their ‘small’ clubs do so.