Junior football, what is the future?

[Guest]

If that turns out to be true then Robert and others should only state that the WRSJFA blazers gave their membership information that led them into backing an option that tied their fortunes to the East in a manner that was inevitably going to further delay their own entry. The interesting question at that point would be whether they did that on their own initiative or were themselves misled. Given Clydebank feature prominently in blazer terms and are pro-pyramid I would lean towards believing the latter at this point. The minutes of the next PWG meeting should make for interesting reading if they get leaked.

So every other manner in which you have put across 'guaranteed' entry has been proven as false, you now move onto a different tact.

Instead of the sjfa misleading their clubs, they have now been misled.

You couldn't make this up.

You remind me of another poster, who likes to dip in and out of chats with such nonsense. Do you have 2 identities with the same ip address?

[Che Dail]

33 minutes ago, BS7 said:

Is this thread the equivalent of p n b Groundhog Day?

3 years since Kelty took the plunge, 2 years since Bonnyrigg and the rest. 
 

i hope I’m wrong, but my suspicion is that nothing will have fundamentally changed in a years time.

YES! NOTHING HAS CHANGED! I said exactly that yesterday. 

Go back a year and read the posts, then go back two years read exactly the same comments.  

But since then, EoS clubs have PROVED that it was 100% the correct decision to move, yet still people can't see beyond the gates of their own football ground or loyalty to a 'grade', and ignorant 'leaders' who keep lying to them.

"Oh, people are in the know, let's see what they say at the next PWG meeting"  or "why not set up a WoS league and that's it solved?"   Just get on with it then and we can move forward.

"Scotland the Brave", aye? Too many feardies held back by institutional stupidity.

Must be tedious as fk for the LL and EoS reps going back to the table time and time again and not getting anywhere while the rest of the world moves on.  Banging heads against table in disbelief.  Unbelievable.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Che Dail

[LongTimeLurker]

28 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

So every other manner in which you have put across 'guaranteed' entry has been proven as false, you now move onto a different tact.

Instead of the sjfa misleading their clubs, they have now been misled.

You couldn't make this up.

You remind me of another poster, who likes to dip in and out of chats with such nonsense. Do you have 2 identities with the same ip address?

^^^have already had to point out to this guy that he struggles with English language comprehension. If the WRSJFA blazers were in turn misled, who could it possibly have been by? Who would have been the point of contact between the junior national association and the senior grade where these negotiations are concerned? Answers on a postcard to Tom J....

Edited January 22, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Guest]

^^^have already had to point out to this guy that he struggles with English language comprehension. If the WRSJFA blazers were in turn misled, who could it possibly have been by? Who would have been the point of contact between the junior national association and the senior grade where these negotiations are concerned? Answers on a postcard to Tom J....

This guy. [emoji4] Appears I might have hit a nerve.

Keep going, you are all over the place.

I don't understand your version of the English language, probably never will, nor do I appreciate the world you seem to live in.

You sound like a guy named John I know. I wonder if your ip address matches the one he posts from?

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 hours ago, G4Mac said:

This guy. Appears I might have hit a nerve.

Keep going, you are all over the place.

I don't understand your version of the English language, probably never will, nor do I appreciate the world you seem to live in.

You sound like a guy named John I know. I wonder if your ip address matches the one he posts from?

It is pricey or his dad. 

[Jack Burton]

I don't know, I'm talking about clubs who don't want to be in the pyramid. For arguments sake, let's say there is a LL West as per this magic bullet Option Z. A club might look at BSC Glasgow, Gretna, Edusport, Glasgow Uni, etc. and think that they don't fancy playing those sides where there is no historic rivalry, perhaps lower away crowds etc. For the most part in the current set up I'd imagine most teams who win the league are quite happy? Increased crowds, no increased travelling (often cited as an issue for Junior clubs who want to stay where they are etc.). It could be worse for these clubs if the Lowland League forms a LL2, where the likes of Lugar Boswell Thistle (to use an example from further upthread) could see themselves promoted into a league with Tweedmouth, Kirkcaldy and Dysart, Kello Rovers, Dalbeattie Star etc. Given some clubs reluctance to travel more than 30 or so miles, do you think they'd be going all guns blazing for promotion into that league?

If option Z does come to pass then the majority of clubs in LL West will come from the West junior premiership. But you think teams will throw promotion cause they might not fancy playing Gretna and few other LL teams a couple of times a season?

How would Lugar in the bottom tier of the West juniors end up playing teams that are in the east side of the pyramid? If LL2 was formed then the only club you listed that could be in it would be Dalbeattie.

[glensmad]

7 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

If option Z does come to pass then the majority of clubs in LL West will come from the West junior premiership....

Not unless they all get a licence.

And they can't have a licence even considered if they are not already part of the pyramid.

It's pretty simple - junior clubs currently without a licence will not be able to enter at tier 5 as the rules currently stand.

[Che Dail]

11 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

If option Z does come to pass then the majority of clubs in LL West will come from the West junior premiership and pigs will fly.

Just added a bit on the end of that para for you 

[LongTimeLurker]

18 minutes ago, glensmad said:

...It's pretty simple - junior clubs currently without a licence will not be able to enter at tier 5 as the rules currently stand.

More accurately as the rules are currently applied. Option Z will almost certainly be stillborn if the LL doesn't split, but under those circumstances the progression clause would almost certainly be applied differently from how it is now.

[Marshmallo]

That's the groundwork getting laid now for the LL being to blame ^^^

 

Same boring nonsense as "the EoS vetoed ERJFA at tier 6" zzzzzzzz

[Robert James]

8 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The WRSJFA clubs were told that the SPFL and LL support Option Z, so that's not accurate.

What absolute nonsense. 

The SJFA & WRJFA knew that the SFA/PWG had very clearly spelt out (last year) that the ERJFA couldn't enter the pyramid at Tier 6, whilst it had two geographically split Premier divisions. It would be very hard to believe that : (1) the West clubs had never been told/heard this decision  stated by the SFA/PWG/LL, or (2) that the West clubs didn't question the West management about this alleged 'support'  (ie:  by whom and when ?), which would be very surprising given the SJFA's  misinformation about pyramid entry, in previous years., or        (3) the management was misrepresenting the SPFL & LL's "support" ?

As the Lurker, which 'reason' do you believe to be true ? Or is this merely fantasy football ?

Edited January 22, 2020 by Robert James
typo

[Robert James]

6 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If that turns out to be true then Robert and others should only state that the WRSJFA blazers gave their membership information that led them into backing an option that tied their fortunes to the East in a manner that was inevitably going to further delay their own entry. The interesting question at that point would be whether they did that on their own initiative or were themselves misled. Given Clydebank feature prominently in blazer terms and are pro-pyramid I would lean towards believing the latter at this point. The minutes of the next PWG meeting should make for interesting reading if they get leaked.

Certainly the Minutes (or a statement from the PWG) should be issued IMO. 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

6 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

 

 

If the whole of the West Juniors come in, whether that is as part of an Option Z style split at Tier 5 or with the Super League at Tier 6 with the leagues below at Tiers 7 and 8, then every club will be in the pyramid. That is regardless of what the individual clubs would prefer, hence "forced into the pyramid". If they didn't want to take part in the pyramid these clubs would then have 2 options - deliberately "throw" matches where they might be in a position to get promoted (AFAIK there is no mechanism in the pyramid structure where a promotion can be turned down) or leave the League structure and set up/join a structure outwith the pyramid. If the Juniors as a whole don't join the pyramid but a WoS League (which may be more than one division of course) then they can still play in their local leagues, keep the Junior name, don't have to commit to the pyramid etc.

 

Sorry disagree, still not forced.
If its because the SYFA or the WRSJFA want to join the seniors is really that they want to look after their own jobs and don't care about the juniors or that they think its better for Scottish football that they go. if a club does not want to go to the seniors, then don't. if the junior league leaves, then feck them, join a top amateur league until there is enough interest if the juniors start up again. no one is forced.  Most of the junior teams are run by hard working committee but many just go along for the ride and just get by, day to day, week to week.  I heard some moaning that if Auchinleck and Cumnock, Glenafton left then that would ruin it for their team as they rely on them. This is typical of most who don't have any vision, only interested in their self satisfaction ' self presivation if it means other teams must not be allowed to grow.   Sorry but if any team relies on another team then they are in a precarious situation, same as relying in a league or an association, things happen, things change, hopefully for the betterment but you have to prepare for the worst.

I 100% agree with you in regards to a WOS being set up and the West junior region staying intact with less teams that are more deemed to misleading or power struggles.
I personally, think for the past couple of years have been a loss, associations for pyramid saying things and associations not in pyramid saying things.
I'm positive if all the west regions teams knew that the SFA started a new WOS is being set up for 2020/21, we want applications now, I guarantee more than 10 would jump at the chance and thus we would have a new WOS league in the pyramid, there would still be a West region, although weaker 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread
Association name correction - Sorry Again

[Guest]

It is pricey or his dad. 

I did think as much.

Oh well nothing new in what he/they are doing. Seems to the m o.

I'm done with it. Crack on into oblivion lurker.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Sorry disagree, still not forced.
If its because the SYFA or the WRSJFA want to join the seniors is really that they want to look after their own jobs and don't care about the juniors or that they think its better for Scottish football that they go. if a club does not want to go to the seniors, then don't. if the junior league leaves, then feck them, join a top amateur league until there is enough interest if the juniors start up again. no one is forced.  Most of the junior teams are run by hard working committee but many just go along for the ride and just get by, day to day, week to week.  I heard some moaning that if Auchinleck and Cumnock, Glenafton left then that would ruin it for their team as they rely on them. This is typical of most who don't have any vision, only interested in their self satisfaction ' self presivation if it means other teams must not be allowed to grow.   Sorry but if any team relies on another team then they are in a precarious situation, same as relying in a league or an association, things happen, things change, hopefully for the betterment but you have to prepare for the worst.

I 100% agree with you in regards to a WOS being set up and the West junior region staying intact with less teams that are more deemed to misleading or power struggles.
I personally, think for the past couple of years have been a loss, associations for pyramid saying things and associations not in pyramid saying things.
I'm positive if all the west regions teams knew that the SFA started a new WOS is being set up for 2020/21, we want applications now, I guarantee more than 10 would jump at the chance and thus we would have a new WOS league in the pyramid, there would still be a West region, although weaker 

A very helpful post.  I hope that the PWG are advised accordingly next week

 

1 hour ago, glensmad said:

Not unless they all get a licence.

And they can't have a licence even considered if they are not already part of the pyramid.

It's pretty simple - junior clubs currently without a licence will not be able to enter at tier 5 as the rules currently stand.

For clarification :

* there won't any Tier 5 entry either now,or in the foreseeable future, for new clubs joining the pyramid.  this has been spelt out repeatedly by  burnie_man  and other posters above

* clubs do NOT need an SFA licence to join the pyramid at tier 6 or below

* clubs do need an SFA licence in order to win promotion from tier 6 to tier 5 (to play in either the Lowland or Highland leagues)

* clubs CANNOT be awarded a licence until they have joined a senior league

* clubs do NOT need floodlights to join the the pyramid at tier 6 and below

* clubs do need floodlights in order to be awarded an SFA licence, to enable them to gain promotion to tier 5 thereafter

* all licensed pyramid clubs are eligible to play in the Scottish Cup each season.

If any further clarification is required,junior & amateur clubs are advised to contact the Secretaries of the LL, HFL, EoSL, SoSL direct. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Robert James
post sent in error before completed

[Arthurlie1981]

 

I'm positive if all the west regions teams knew that the SFA started a new WOS is being set up for 2020/21, we want applications now, I guarantee more than 10 would jump at the chance and thus we would have a new WOS league in the pyramid, there would still be a West region, although weaker 

 

I hope your right

 

 

Clydebank

Cumnock

Petershill

Kilwinning

 

Then who? They are the only clubs to publicly announce what they want. Are other clubs going to put their head above the parapet. The issue with only having 10 is that it might not be competitive. Plus it could be 9 or 8 teams in a few seasons due to movement (of course it could go the other way). What do you do in the event of that happening.

 

Are Cumnock going to go without Auchinleck? We have already heard that they were upset losing a Saturday game v Talbot and the financial impact it would have on them. Are they going to not want to play them at all? I know the financial impact of no game v Pollok has hit us hard.

 

What needs to happen is time for clubs to discuss the move to a WOS for 21/22 in an orderly fashion of it is the way the PWG/SFA decide to go. There is no rush and it needs to be done right as if it is done wrong the impacts on clubs could be damaging in the extreme.

[santheman]

39 minutes ago, Robert James said:

A very helpful post.  I hope that the PWG are advised accordingly next week

 

For clarification :

* there won't any Tier 5 entry either now,or in the foreseeable future, for new clubs joining the pyramid.  this has been spelt out repeatedly by  burnie_man  and other posters above

* clubs do NOT need an SFA licence to join the pyramid at tier 6 or below

* clubs do need an SFA licence in order to win promotion from tier 6 to tier 5 (to play in either the Lowland or Highland leagues)

* clubs CANNOT be awarded a licence until they have joined a senior league

* clubs do NOT need floodlights to join the the pyramid at tier 6 and below

* clubs do need floodlights in order to be awarded an SFA licence, to enable them to gain promotion to tier 5 thereafter

* all licensed pyramid clubs are eligible to play in the Scottish Cup each season.

If any further clarification is required,junior & amateur clubs are advised to contact the Secretaries of the LL, HFL, EoSL, SoSL direct. 

No shit Sherlock

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 minute ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

I hope your right


Clydebank
Cumnock
Petershill
Kilwinning

Then who? They are the only clubs to publicly announce what they want. Are other clubs going to put their head above the parapet. The issue with only having 10 is that it might not be competitive. Plus it could be 9 or 8 teams in a few seasons due to movement (of course it could go the other way. What do you do in the event of that happening.

Are Cumnock going to go without Auchinleck? We have already heard that they were upset losing a Saturday game v Talbot and the financial impact it would have on them. Are they going to not want to play them at all?

What needs to happen is time for clubs to discuss the move to a WOS for 21/22 in an orderly fashion of it is the way the PWG/SFA decide to go. There is no rush and it needs to be done right as if it is done wrong the impacts on clubs could be damaging in the extreme.

 

I never said I knew who the teams would be, if there was ten teams. I'm sure some would pull their head out of the sand if it was announced that a WOS league was starting next season
There are too many committee quite happy to stay the way they are because quite simply they don't have the balls to push something like this through or stand up and be counted, too many are interested in wait and see.

If the SFA just said feck this, take charge and state we want applications, then I'm sure the ones who have stated publicly they want to join and then there would be a few who think, yeah, lets get a jump on the rest and join this season.
Who says what is right, who says allowing the guys who run the junior regions are the right people to run the new leagues/associations when they start up.
Who thinks people in the association committees are only thinking of themselves.

28 teams left a couple of years ago and, sorry if I'm wrong, MOST are happy that they did so and the rest in the East juniors are still operating.
can still happen here in the west. I state this as the amount of stuff said and power struggles, even from a few year back has held the growth of the pyramid in Scottish football.
I am strong pro for the pyramid, why because I believe it will be part of the help for improvement in Scottish football.

Officially If its Petershill, Cumnock, Clydebank and Kilwinning who state they want to it, which junior teams have officially stated that they have no interest in going to the pyramid

[FairWeatherFan]

If, and its a very big if at this point, you get those clubs to announce for a WOSFL everyone starts asking questions.

That's potentially 3 Premiership sides and a a Championship side.

What's the premiership going to look like? The knock on effects of that. Clubs in relegation spots thinking they should stay up. Girvan presumably out spending money on floodlights for their SFA membership,wondering if they should move in case of getting locked out in future.

[GNU_Linux]

If, and its a very big if at this point, you get those clubs to announce for a WOSFL everyone starts asking questions.
That's potentially 3 Premiership sides and a a Championship side.
What's the premiership going to look like? The knock on effects of that. Clubs in relegation spots thinking they should stay up. Girvan presumably out spending money on floodlights for their SFA membership,wondering if they should move in case of getting locked out in future.

Personally can't see Girvan getting lights any time soon as the club have had back to back relegations & they are most likely in for another relegation dogfight this season too.