Junior football, what is the future?

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

 

 

Thank goodness someone has posted this since I was thinking how to put it myself. This idea that the SFA "back Option Z" or indeed back any of them is a red herring; they were always intended as discussion points to kick things off. By accident it design (I have my own ideas about which) the SJFA and the WRSJFA in particular seem to have decided that it's this option Z or nothing. As before (when the Jumior clubs had a survey where bizarrely they had different options of joining the senior pyramid at different levels, as if it was something they could just demand rather than being in the gift of others) they have went with something that a) allows some (i.e. clubs in the West) to skip ahead of clubs who committed to the pyramid sooner and b) would likely to be seen as the most problematic solution (which the more cynical would suggest makes it look like they want in while actually wanting to stay out). Which actually leads on to...



Which is something I've always said. Nobody should be forced into the pyramid and so really the Junior "grade" if it wants to survive as a separate entity should be allowed to do so outwith the senior pyramid. There seem to be lots of clubs in the West in particular who aren't interested in being in the pyramid, even if ultimately nothing much will change for them. So let them do that. Set up a WoS League and if clubs don't want to be in it then fine. Even if it means Talbot, Cumnock, Pollok or whenever stays put - but the agreement must be that if you want to join later you start at the lowest level in your region. After a while you might get more movement and you might even get teams dropping back to the Junior ranks but it's by far the easiest solution and allows those who don't want to move that option, as there is and will presumably continue to be in the East. We can then move on to sorting out the Highland League catchment and Tayside in particular.

 

I'm unsure where this 'forced into the pyramid' stuff comes from. If any club has the balls to say no, we aint going even if the West region goes then don't go.
The same with West region clubs who want to go, grab your balls and let the SFA know you want in.  The teams whom you talk about who don't want to go are probably just weak minded teams with weak committees who will just join with the rest even though they don't want to go.  The SJFA, WRSJFA and the ERSJFA are all just looking after themselves incase most teams really want to move so they are trying to go enmass so they may still be in power the same way they are the now.  If the SJFA or West or East regions don't wanna go, ffs, they should say so, stating they wont be moving so any members who want to stay with them can do so.
Totally agree with what you say, if say 20 teams don't wanna go, then don't and if years later they wanna join then yes,, its open and join in at the bottom

[Robert James]

It seems unlikely that the remaining East juniors will want to revert to a structure which has 2 separate/parallel  'regional' Premier Divisions next season, as stated clearly by the SFA. If this is correct, then everyone knows the ERJFA can't enter the pyramid at tier 6.  Therefore the WRJFA clubs are binding themselves to the East, whilst knowing that they are blocking their own pyramid entry.

Has anyone heard that the ERJFA has discussed reversing last year's restructuring, because I haven't. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Robert James
additional question added

[LongTimeLurker]

6 hours ago, Robert James said:

...Therefore the WRJFA clubs are binding themselves to the East, whilst knowing that they are blocking their own pyramid entry...

The WRSJFA clubs were told that the SPFL and LL support Option Z, so that's not accurate.

Edited January 22, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[pipedreamer]

14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The WRSJFA clubs were told that the SPFL and LL support Option Z, so that's not accurate.

Which was a brazen lie by the management committee to get the outcome they desired, which was an option that had zero chance of happening so they could stay outside while looking like they want to join.

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The WRSJFA clubs were told that the SPFL and LL support Option Z, so that's not accurate.

Neither of whom had representation there and the WRSJFA board don't have a representative at PWG meetings.

[LongTimeLurker]

16 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

Which was a brazen lie by the management committee to get the outcome they desired, which was an option that had zero chance of happening so they could stay outside while looking like they want to join.

If that turns out to be true then Robert and others should only state that the WRSJFA blazers gave their membership information that led them into backing an option that tied their fortunes to the East in a manner that was inevitably going to further delay their own entry. The interesting question at that point would be whether they did that on their own initiative or were themselves misled. Given Clydebank feature prominently in blazer terms and are pro-pyramid I would lean towards believing the latter at this point. The minutes of the next PWG meeting should make for interesting reading if they get leaked.

Edited January 22, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[superbigal]

It seems unlikely that the remaining East juniors will want to revert to a structure which has 2 separate/parallel  'regional' Premier Divisions next season, as stated clearly by the SFA. If this is correct, then everyone knows the ERJFA can't enter the pyramid at tier 6.  Therefore the WRJFA clubs are binding themselves to the East, whilst knowing that they are blocking their own pyramid entry. Has anyone heard that the ERJFA has discussed reversing last year's restructuring, because I haven't.  

 

Yes I believe the east region would revert to a single superleague if the pyramid was sorted and they as an entity are part of it. I think both current leagues have been told how many of each would qualify. Clearly for now the chances of that form of entry look extremely slim.  I am interested (pleased) in the indication that the lowland league might actual bring a proposal to the table at the pwg.

Interesting as if you believe at least what was written in all the sfa leaked minutes they did very little in last season's fiasco. Actually they appear to have just been bystanders, or actioned requests until the significant vote.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marshmallo]

39 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If that turns out to be true then Robert and others should only state that the WRSJFA blazers gave their membership information that led them into backing an option that tied their fortunes to the East in a manner that was inevitably going to further delay their own entry. The interesting question at that point would be whether they did that on their own initiative or were themselves misled. Given Clydebank feature prominently in blazer terms and are pro-pyramid I would lean towards believing the latter at this point. The minutes of the next PWG meeting should make for interesting reading if they get leaked.

 

29 minutes ago, superbigal said:

Yes I believe the east region would revert to a single superleague if the pyramid was sorted and they as an entity are part of it. I think both current leagues have been told how many of each would qualify. Clearly for now the chances of that form of entry look extremely slim.  I am interested (pleased) in the indication that the lowland league might actual bring a proposal to the table at the pwg.

Interesting as if you believe at least what was written in all the sfa leaked minutes they did very little in last season's fiasco. Actually they appear to have just been bystanders, or actioned requests until the significant vote.

 

 

 

 

 

The group chat must've been buzzing this morning

[Che Dail]

18 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

It's not the primary role of the clubs to produce players for the national team.

The world cup prize pot is $400 million.  FIFA shares it with 32 participant countries, plus $1.5m each to help with participation costs.  UEFA pot for Euro 2020 is $456m.  The commercial advantage in terms of advertising revenue and merchandise adds many more $$$ to that.

But Scotland keeps failing, and loses out on lots of money.  ALL OF US , because the SFA shares its profits with member clubs according to their Club Licensing status.  Qualifying for tournaments is therefore significant, and good financially for all clubs.

In other words, if Scottish football produces better players at youth level, (where in my view it is infinitely more important than at SPFL 1 and SFPL 2 level) clubs will ultimately benefit in the long term via the club licensing dividend.

So we should be looking to other countries and ask what is it they're doing at club level and youth level that provides the right platform for the best players to go and play football at the very best level, and try to replicate that.  None of this, 'But we're the Juniors" or "But we're Albion Rovers and aye been in the league"

 

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Che Dail

[LongTimeLurker]

5 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

 

The group chat must've been buzzing this morning

^^^completely whooshed by most of what is being posted but thinks he has his finger on the pulse. More to be pitied than scorned.

[superbigal]

Remember Marshy is the 5th worst poster on pandb so give him respect.

[Salvo Montalbano]

I'm unsure where this 'forced into the pyramid' stuff comes from. If any club has the balls to say no, we aint going even if the West region goes then don't go.
The same with West region clubs who want to go, grab your balls and let the SFA know you want in.  The teams whom you talk about who don't want to go are probably just weak minded teams with weak committees who will just join with the rest even though they don't want to go.  The SJFA, WRSJFA and the ERSJFA are all just looking after themselves incase most teams really want to move so they are trying to go enmass so they may still be in power the same way they are the now.  If the SJFA or West or East regions don't wanna go, ffs, they should say so, stating they wont be moving so any members who want to stay with them can do so.
Totally agree with what you say, if say 20 teams don't wanna go, then don't and if years later they wanna join then yes,, its open and join in at the bottom

If the whole of the West Juniors come in, whether that is as part of an Option Z style split at Tier 5 or with the Super League at Tier 6 with the leagues below at Tiers 7 and 8, then every club will be in the pyramid. That is regardless of what the individual clubs would prefer, hence "forced into the pyramid". If they didn't want to take part in the pyramid these clubs would then have 2 options - deliberately "throw" matches where they might be in a position to get promoted (AFAIK there is no mechanism in the pyramid structure where a promotion can be turned down) or leave the League structure and set up/join a structure outwith the pyramid. If the Juniors as a whole don't join the pyramid but a WoS League (which may be more than one division of course) then they can still play in their local leagues, keep the Junior name, don't have to commit to the pyramid etc.

[Jack Burton]

If the whole of the West Juniors come in, whether that is as part of an Option Z style split at Tier 5 or with the Super League at Tier 6 with the leagues below at Tiers 7 and 8, then every club will be in the pyramid. That is regardless of what the individual clubs would prefer, hence "forced into the pyramid". If they didn't want to take part in the pyramid these clubs would then have 2 options - deliberately "throw" matches where they might be in a position to get promoted (AFAIK there is no mechanism in the pyramid structure where a promotion can be turned down) or leave the League structure and set up/join a structure outwith the pyramid. If the Juniors as a whole don't join the pyramid but a WoS League (which may be more than one division of course) then they can still play in their local leagues, keep the Junior name, don't have to commit to the pyramid etc.

Are clubs in the habit of throwing matches to avoid promotion in the current West setup?

The only difference from the current setup would be the winners of West premiership would be eligible for promotion to the LL if they are licensed. If they are not licensed then they wouldn't be promoted.

[Jack Burton]

The world cup prize pot is $400 million.  FIFA shares it with 32 participant countries, plus $1.5m each to help with participation costs.  UEFA pot for Euro 2020 is $456m.  The commercial advantage in terms of advertising revenue and merchandise adds many more $$$ to that.
But Scotland keeps failing, and loses out on lots of money.  ALL OF US , because the SFA shares its profits with member clubs according to their Club Licensing status.  Qualifying for tournaments is therefore significant, and good financially for all clubs.
In other words, if Scottish football produces better players at youth level, (where in my view it is infinitely more important than at SPFL 1 and SFPL 2 level) clubs will ultimately benefit in the long term via the club licensing dividend.
So we should be looking to other countries and ask what is it they're doing at club level and youth level that provides the right platform for the best players to go and play football at the very best level, and try to replicate that.  None of this, 'But we're the Juniors" or "But we're Albion Rovers and aye been in the league"
 
 

You do realise it is only around 3% of the prize money that filters down to SPFL1 and SPFL2? The rest is hoovered up by the top two leagues. Yet this 3% is all that is stopping Scotland qualifying from a World Cup [emoji23]

[FairWeatherFan]

29 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

You do realise it is only around 3% of the prize money that filters down to SPFL1 and SPFL2? The rest is hoovered up by the top two leagues. Yet this 3% is all that is stopping Scotland qualifying from a World Cup

League Two = 2.25% which last year amounted to £562,500

League One = 3.45% which  last year amounted to £862,500

If I remember right their restructuring had 36 clubs still playing nationally and 64 at tier 4.

So it would be less than £300k to be redistributed in some way.

[Che Dail]

37 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

You do realise it is only around 3% of the prize money that filters down to SPFL1 and SPFL2? The rest is hoovered up by the top two leagues. Yet this 3% is all that is stopping Scotland qualifying from a World Cup

100% of the money would stay in scottish football.  This is clearly a benefit, not  curse.

People with a fixed mindset continue to hold back Scottish football.

[BS7]

Is this thread the equivalent of p n b Groundhog Day?

3 years since Kelty took the plunge, 2 years since Bonnyrigg and the rest. 
 

i hope I’m wrong, but my suspicion is that nothing will have fundamentally changed in a years time.

[Peters Wyngarde]

17 minutes ago, BS7 said:

Is this thread the equivalent of p n b Groundhog Day?

3 years since Kelty took the plunge, 2 years since Bonnyrigg and the rest. 
 

i hope I’m wrong, but my suspicion is that nothing will have fundamentally changed in a years time.

Too many dreaming up obstacles instead of trying to find solutions. West could move tomorrow into the Pyramid.

Clubs need to be progressive, too many reactive.

[Salvo Montalbano]

Are clubs in the habit of throwing matches to avoid promotion in the current West setup?

The only difference from the current setup would be the winners of West premiership would be eligible for promotion to the LL if they are licensed. If they are not licensed then they wouldn't be promoted.

I don't know, I'm talking about clubs who don't want to be in the pyramid. For arguments sake, let's say there is a LL West as per this magic bullet Option Z. A club might look at BSC Glasgow, Gretna, Edusport, Glasgow Uni, etc. and think that they don't fancy playing those sides where there is no historic rivalry, perhaps lower away crowds etc. For the most part in the current set up I'd imagine most teams who win the league are quite happy? Increased crowds, no increased travelling (often cited as an issue for Junior clubs who want to stay where they are etc.). It could be worse for these clubs if the Lowland League forms a LL2, where the likes of Lugar Boswell Thistle (to use an example from further upthread) could see themselves promoted into a league with Tweedmouth, Kirkcaldy and Dysart, Kello Rovers, Dalbeattie Star etc. Given some clubs reluctance to travel more than 30 or so miles, do you think they'd be going all guns blazing for promotion into that league?

[Peters Wyngarde]

If that's an issue for them then they shouldn't be senior clubs, they can remain Junior or move to the Ams whilst the progressive element get on with being Senior.

Too many dreaming up obstacles instead of trying to find solutions. West could move tomorrow into the Pyramid.