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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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25 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

2 squads of L1 players because that's what they are pushing for, constantly improving.

But then that's what my proposal allows for, I.e. the top 4 would go up. 

Or the concentration of just 10 teams allows for them to attract the best part-time players.

And according to your guide. Only one club is guaranteed promotion to League One and the runner up goes into a playoff with 2nd bottom of League One. So potentially only two of the four could go up.

image.png.945ece44b2120d6c0b4c62f63d73d42a.png

15 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Yes, but higher profile doesn't always equate to better quality.  Because it's on the telly and the length of time the clubs have 'aye been' in the upper levels of the game we are all programmed to believe that somehow it must be better instead of honestly appraising and questioning it, is like 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.

The whole perceived status thing around it is for vanity and it doesn't advance Scottish Football. 

See the Danish Pyramid attached. Regional at T3, with 4 feeders below. About the game population as us, and arguably less regionally diverse in terms of its geography.

Denmark = 16th FIFA ranking

Scotland = 50th

And their clubs fare better than ours in Europe.

I doubt seriously that Denmark's relative success compared to Scotland's has much to do with their league structure. Especially regionalised lower tiers.

If you look at their current squad only one of them is with a Danish club.

If you look at those that have 20 or more caps since they'd represent the back bone of the squad that's brought that recent success. None of them play in Denmark. 5 of them have never played professionally in Denmark having left as teenagers.

image.png.37d407b7e04e70c662059b4ace0f0cad.png

And as for their clubs doing better than ours in Europe. You'll notice a lot of their heavy coeffiecient lifting comes from Copenhagen and Midtjylland. In the same ways our is inflated due to Celtic and Rangers.

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5 hours ago, Che Dail said:

is not reasonable to expect Lochee and Carnoustie to play n the same league as Wick.

Out of interest why not? Dundee to Wick doesn't take that much longer than Aberdeen to Wick. About 4½ hours. It's a trip I do regularly. It'd only be once a season. The HFL teams manage this fine...

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29 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

The spfl lower leagues are comfortably a better standard than 99% of non league sides.

And Cowdenbeath traveling to Elgin instead of Gretna has 0 influence on our national ranking. None.

Well both those views are subjective, aren't they?

I would say that protectionism within our league and non-league structures has ultimately had an effect on overall standards and therefore hindered our national team.

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6 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...except in reality all three regions of the SJFA have now backed the "Petrie brain fart".

It was explained to me from 4 different members of 4 different west junior teams who were at Thursdays meeting that a west region management member stated to them that Option Z is backed by the SFA and Lowland league so that is the best one to go for.  I do not believe this for one minute that the Lowland league and SFA would back Option Z, why, what have they to gain?

 

I have my views as every other person on here does. I do not like Option Z,  why, Option Z could have been started at any time as I feel it will be knocked back and delayed the pyramid growth again. BUT The West should have just went in as four divisions with the top in at tier 6 and you could have changed the Lowland League in a year later or years to come once East juniors joined.   That would have had the West in with no objections whatsoever and then eventually the East and North would jump as well.  The West is a simple fix and the East and Tayside and North still need some work but at least we would have known it was growing.

I feel there is too many with agendas and power struggles that has made it a farce over the past few years, just get a grip as we all want Scottish Football to improve

 

 

 

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
marked west down when it should have been East. Sorry, confusing there
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1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I doubt seriously that Denmark's relative success compared to Scotland's has much to do with their league structure. Especially regionalised lower tiers.

If you look at their current squad only one of them is with a Danish club.

If you look at those that have 20 or more caps since they'd represent the back bone of the squad that's brought that recent success. None of them play in Denmark. 5 of them have never played professionally in Denmark having left as teenagers.

image.png.37d407b7e04e70c662059b4ace0f0cad.png

And as for their clubs doing better than ours in Europe. You'll notice a lot of their heavy coeffiecient lifting comes from Copenhagen and Midtjylland. In the same ways our is inflated due to Celtic and Rangers.

Clearly it is daft to ignore the quantifiable success of other countries and believe that we've got it right and they're wrong.  16 v 50 is quite some margin.  

I suspect that the comparative success of football in Denmark, like the country in general, is to do with a more equitable and fairer distribution of wealth from the top level down to grassroots with emphasis on youth, facilities and community development instead of having pressure to invest heavily in first team football just to survive in the league.

Maybe they wouldn't spend over four grand travelling the length of the country for two pointless first team league matches, because they will recognise that the money could be better spent on other things locally.

Evidently the overall structure works because the kids develop well enough to be sought after by clubs across Europe at an early age, as you point out.

Also you have shown that their top Division has no Danish internationals playing in it, yet still the clubs outperform Scotland in its European co-efficient.  All we have in that context is Rangers and Celtic - two hugely wealthy clubs compared to the rest - the gap between richest and poorest in this country is phenomenal.  

Edited by Che Dail
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19 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

It was explained to me from 4 different members of 4 different west junior teams who were at Thursdays meeting that a west region management member stated to them that Option Z is backed by the SFA and Lowland league so that is the best one to go for. 

If true, then that person is lying.

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The LL will not split. It lowers their promotion chances from 1 in 2 to 1 in 3. The spfl aren't going to increase promotion anytime soon.

Sadly junior clubs and fans have been provided with another smokescreen to delay any progress and keep whatever power the sjfa have left with the sjfa.

I do hope though that someone sees sense and either sets up a breakaway wos feeder league at tier 6 or clubs choose to investigate this avenue themselves.

It is the only way the west junior sides will enter the pyramid. Anything else will be rejected by every other association. Option z doesn't work due to..... Well everything that people have been saying for days really.

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3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Clearly it is daft to ignore the quantifiable success of other countries and believe that we've got it right and they're wrong.  16 v 50 is quite some margin.  

I suspect that the comparative success of football in Denmark, like the country in general, is to do with a more equitable and fairer distribution of wealth from the top level down to grassroots with emphasis on youth, facilities and community development instead of having pressure to invest heavily in first team football just to survive in the league.

Maybe they wouldn't spend over four grand travelling the length of the country for two pointless first team league matches, because they will recognise that the money could be spent better on other things locally.

Evidently the overall structure works because the kids develop well enough to be sought after by clubs across Europe at an early age, as you point out.

Also you have shown that their top Division has no Danish internationals playing in it, yet still the clubs outperforms Scotland in its European co-efficient.  All we have in that context is Rangers and Celtic - two hugely wealthy clubs compared to the rest - the gap between richest and poorest in this country is phenomenal.  

Scotland FIFA rankings september 2007 #14, October 2007 #13, November 2007 #14, December 2007 #14, January 2008 #14, February 2008 #14, March 2008 #14, April 2008 #15, May 2008 #15

If Scotland was within the Top 16 in the WORLD for so long, we clearly were one of the 16 best European countries and qualified for Euro 2008.

Pointing to the professional league structure isn't the answer to the question, its looking at the youth structure. Training facilities, coaching, culture.

By the way. Denmark actually has 50 clubs playing nationally unlike our 42. The 3rd Tier Second Division isn't regionalised. Its in Groups, a bit like the EoS Conferences. Otherwise 8 of the 24 clubs would be in the same Division while others are crossing more than half the country.

image.png.a61c5bea50c9e9d92fc9d4bec604f5ac.png

As for doing better in Europe current standings has Scotland has a grand total difference in coeffiecients as 0.675. Scotland still has 2 clubs in Europe and Denmark only one.

image.png.fb48201c22ede7859e32af934c692c04.png

And for 2021 Scotland is currently ahead of Denmark when the 2015-16 season drops off.

image.png.79c7b15956270729087cee765c98f687.png

And while  Copenhagen and FC Midtjylland don't have a ton of Danish internationals in their squads. They sure do pack their squads with foreigners from all over.

Copenhagen:

image.png.96f5a71bc687c48d892c85433899b0f1.png

FC Midtjylland

image.png.e30cbd3b9fb8c8a0261b7a4627d03df7.png

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

If true, then that person is lying.

Does the SJFA publish any Minutes from these meetings ?

30 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Nae chance of option z support from LL given it'd mean moving the HL/LL boundry which the LL is against

In my opinion Option Z is just a clever SJFA/WRJFA strategy (con ?) aimed at creating another diversion, in order to delay the West from joining the pyramid for another year or two.  This new ruse may well turn out to be successful.  Very sad.

As an aside, does anyone have any information about the outcome of the Clydebank meeting allegedly held yesterday ?

 

Edited by Robert James
post sent in error before completed
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20 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Does the SJFA publish any Minutes from these meetings ?

In my opinion Option Z is just a clever SJFA/WRJFA strategy (con ?) aimed at creating another diversion, in order to delay the West from joining the pyramid for another year or two.  This new ruse may well turn out to be successful.  Very sad.

As an aside, does anyone have any information about the outcome of the Clydebank meeting allegedly held yesterday ?

 

Yip a friend of mine who was at the meeting told that nothing was implemented in regards to Clydebank going separately. lot of miss mash and chat which looks like, sounds like they are going to wait for the outcome of OptionZ. But isn't the Clydebank chairman one of the SJFA guys in power, if so then he would want it to go along the Option Z way, well I would expect.
I'm honestly sick and tired of all the power struggles and agendas 

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2 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Clearly it is daft to ignore the quantifiable success of other countries and believe that we've got it right and they're wrong.  16 v 50 is quite some margin.  

I suspect that the comparative success of football in Denmark, like the country in general, is to do with a more equitable and fairer distribution of wealth from the top level down to grassroots with emphasis on youth, facilities and community development instead of having pressure to invest heavily in first team football just to survive in the league.

Maybe they wouldn't spend over four grand travelling the length of the country for two pointless first team league matches, because they will recognise that the money could be better spent on other things locally.

Evidently the overall structure works because the kids develop well enough to be sought after by clubs across Europe at an early age, as you point out.

Also you have shown that their top Division has no Danish internationals playing in it, yet still the clubs outperform Scotland in its European co-efficient.  All we have in that context is Rangers and Celtic - two hugely wealthy clubs compared to the rest - the gap between richest and poorest in this country is phenomenal.  

I've not delved into it deeper but Croatia, a smaller nation than Scotland has every youth coach as a paid coach and go through courses to make sure they are up to standard.
Cant remember when this started but think I heard it was 10 years ago, maybe less. A country smaller than Scotland in population but far outreaching the standard of quality that we have in Scotland and showing with their countries national fortunes.   I will say that in every division right through to district the champions are all promoted and the bottom placed team are relegated and in most cases the runners up of the league play the 2nd bottom of the higher league in playoff to see who go into the higher league next season. Not of this crap, play off to have playoff to see who played Scottish 2nd division bottom team.  If this was similar system to Croatia, then the 'Scottish division two team' who finishes bottom would be relegated, no matter who they are.  Not of this institution shite.

 

I have to say, I was at a West junior cup final watching Pollok win 3.1 and some of our Pollok U19s lads where in the team and the game was at shettleston's ground and the wee brick hole for the dignitaries, you should have seen them, thinking they wur fat cats , smoking cigars.  two young lads where sitting on the wall beside then and they told them to get out as if they are untouchable. that's what is wrong with our football, too many people thinking its about them and their power.

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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6 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

30 months and 938 pages later, things don't seem to have changed much.

Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme choise.

The only way out of the impasse is for one major west region club to make a move happen, and I suspect others would follow.

strange that only dunipace have done anything, and Clydebank haven’t followed up.

 

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17 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Scotland FIFA rankings september 2007 #14, October 2007 #13, November 2007 #14, December 2007 #14, January 2008 #14, February 2008 #14, March 2008 #14, April 2008 #15, May 2008 #15

If Scotland was within the Top 16 in the WORLD for so long, we clearly were one of the 16 best European countries and qualified for Euro 2008.

Pointing to the professional league structure isn't the answer to the question, its looking at the youth structure. Training facilities, coaching, culture.

By the way. Denmark actually has 50 clubs playing nationally unlike our 42. The 3rd Tier Second Division isn't regionalised. Its in Groups, a bit like the EoS Conferences. Otherwise 8 of the 24 clubs would be in the same Division while others are crossing more than half the country.

image.png.a61c5bea50c9e9d92fc9d4bec604f5ac.png

As for doing better in Europe current standings has Scotland has a grand total difference in coeffiecients as 0.675. Scotland still has 2 clubs in Europe and Denmark only one.

image.png.fb48201c22ede7859e32af934c692c04.png

And for 2021 Scotland is currently ahead of Denmark when the 2015-16 season drops off.

image.png.79c7b15956270729087cee765c98f687.png

And while  Copenhagen and FC Midtjylland don't have a ton of Danish internationals in their squads. They sure do pack their squads with foreigners from all over.

Copenhagen:

image.png.96f5a71bc687c48d892c85433899b0f1.png

FC Midtjylland

image.png.e30cbd3b9fb8c8a0261b7a4627d03df7.png

 

 

Struggling to cope with that bombardment of information -  But thanks nonetheless, it is interesting! 

The example on your map is T3 and was changed from and East Pool and a West pool in 2016. 

T4 is The Denmark Series and it is regional, which is split into in 4 groups of 10: G1 and G2 are in Zealand (East of the country: Copenhagen / Roskilde);  G3  is in the West (Odense / Kolding / Esbjerg); G4 is in Jutland (north-west, Aalborg, Aarhus). 

https://uk.soccerway.com/national/denmark/denmarksserien/20192020/group-1/r54993/

Not too dissimilar to what I have indicated for Scotland (only I've got 16 teams in each regional league), and I think they have 4 promotion spots from the Series.

We'll just have to disagree on the significance of league structure - I think radical change and a more fluid system is vital. 

In Scotland we have a straight column for the top 4 tiers.  Whereas  in the Danish example it spreads out, in the shape of a pyramid.  Its strength is in the base, a foundation, which is broad (and de-centralised).

Not sure what the relevance of the 2007 rankings is, but looking at actual results is painful: we've not been to a World Cup since 1998.  Denmark got to the QF at that one and subsequently qualified in 2002, 2010 and 2018.

I agree that continuing to focus investment on the youth structure and facilities is key.  Hopefully our young players can aspire to travel abroad to learn at a young age, and we'll have a national team full of Andy Robertson inspired players at Leicester / Milan / Chelsea / Spurs / Dortmund / Valencia instead of Wigan / Sunderland / Sheff Wed / Sheff Utd / Derby / Kilmarnock and so on.

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2 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Out of interest why not? Dundee to Wick doesn't take that much longer than Aberdeen to Wick. About 4½ hours. It's a trip I do regularly. It'd only be once a season. The HFL teams manage this fine...

Because for a game of league football at this level it would be a complete waste of time, energy and money (which is scarce, and valuable).  Just pointless - hardly anyone would want to go, not even the players. 

Ask Lochee and Broughty to join the pyramid with a trip to Wick dangling as a carrot? No thanks.

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Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme choise.

The only way out of the impasse is for one major west region club to make a move happen, and I suspect others would follow.

strange that only dunipace have done anything, and Clydebank haven’t followed up.

 

Bankies wont be the club to make a move, last time we put our head above the parapet the powers that be tried to interfere with matters which would have probably put us out of business. Given that I wouldnt expect our board to do that, something I entirely understand and respect. That said I think the LL west and east has about as much chance of succeeding as a Donald Trump led business proposal.

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2 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Bankies wont be the club to make a move, last time we put our head above the parapet the powers that be tried to interfere with matters which would have probably put us out of business. Given that I wouldnt expect our board to do that, something I entirely understand and respect. That said I think the LL west and east has about as much chance of succeeding as a Donald Trump led business proposal.

There's less venom in a king cobra than there is in some of these poundshop blazers.

Edited by cmontheloknow
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8 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Because for a game of league football at this level it would be a complete waste of time, energy and money (which is scarce, and valuable).  Just pointless - hardly anyone would want to go, not even the players. 

Ask Lochee and Broughty to join the pyramid with a trip to Wick dangling as a carrot? No thanks.

In the Lowland League we'd be facing trips to Dalbeattie & Gretna, they're not much closer than Wick. And more than 2 divisions at the highest regionalised level will never happen. I'd like to see a comparison for travel for us in the HL compared to the LL. And then especially if the bottom 2 in the HL drop out & get replaced by Banks o'Dee, Broughty & ourselves, which wouldn't be unlikely if the pyramid happens in the north (assuming the HL will go back to 18).

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