Junior football, what is the future?

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

There are a few ways to look at it but from a players perspective: You have an offer from Auchinleck and another from Albion Rovers for exactly the same pay or a marginal gain.  But at Talbot you have a good chance of silverware, probably playing with better players, and Saturday mornings to yourself.  

Or alternatively the prospect of trips to Brechin, Cove and Elgin for the whole day. Time away from family and lost shifts at work - where is the advantage?  It's just not that a good league to have folk travelling for hours  when there are so many more productive ways to spend time and money.  

There are plenty successful Junior clubs who do not see SPL2 as an attractive offering, why is that if the rewards are so great?  See Cowdenbeath accounts on Companies House for a possible reason why - their liabilities exceed their assets by £250k - it's only sustainable for as long as individuals are willing to chuck cash at it.   And Berwick's woes are well publicised online - it just doesn't add up.

 

Every now and then I let this thread run for pages on end then come back to see how the debate is progressing - yet again I've opened the thread and I'm reading this same tired argument. 

Players with ambition will want to play at the highest level possible, players who are happy at their level will be able to stay there if somebody wants them. Rory McAllister could easily have played full time football for the last 6 or 7 years, he's knocked that back time and time again and played virtually his whole career in tier 3 and 4 when he could have played tier 2 as a minimum. There's room for everyone, it's certainly not a reason for holding up a pyramid or for clubs not looking to join it.

[cmontheloknow]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

There are a few ways to look at it but from a players perspective: You have an offer from Auchinleck and another from Albion Rovers for exactly the same pay or a marginal gain.  But at Talbot you have a good chance of silverware, probably playing with better players, and Saturday mornings to yourself.  

Or alternatively the prospect of trips to Brechin, Cove and Elgin for the whole day. Time away from family and lost shifts at work - where is the advantage?  It's just not that good a league to have folk travelling for hours  when there are so many more productive ways to spend time and money.  

There are plenty successful Junior clubs who do not see SPL2 as an attractive offering, why is that if the rewards are so great?  See Cowdenbeath accounts on Companies House for a possible reason why - their liabilities exceed their assets by £250k - it's only sustainable for as long as individuals are willing to chuck cash at it.   And Berwick's woes are well publicised online - it just doesn't add up.

 

SPFL is  much higher profile. That is fact. Match stats in all the usual papers. Goalflashes and red cards on Sky Sports, BBC etc...  score updates on national radio. Higher wages than Junior at most clubs.

Junior media coverage is woeful. It's down to the clubs themselves to do it. Some do it well. Some are dreadful at it. Most in between. The SJFA regions could do things so much better but there's no will to.

[Robert James]

10 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

My opinion is that if the ERJFA are required to form a 16 team super League to gain access to tier 6 which would result in teams from West Lothian travelling to Carnoustie,Forfar and Dundee would a bad decision. This would not be viable option

At last...... someone has remembered to post that last year, the SFA said definitively "NO" to a regionally split ERJFA at tier 6.

I may have missed it, but has the ERJFA hierarchy subsequently decided to abolish its current divisional structure (approved by its clubs last year), and if so, when was this agreed by the clubs ?

No wonder there are rumours that a few of the remaining East junior clubs are apparently considering applying to join the EoSL. 

 

[parsforlife]

Given it’s common practice for players to travel an hour to training and move from Ayr to Peterhead or Stranraer to Arbroath I really don’t think travel is a big an issue for most players as some like to make out.

[Marten]

54 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Correct.

By comparison, Wick Academy and Fort William joined the HFL directly from the NCL, and would want to return there if relegated in the future. Likewise Brora Rangers, Clachnacuddin, and probably Nairn County,  would join the NCL, if it was a recognised HFL pyramid feeder league, at that time. 

Lewis & Harris FC  (+ Shetland FC occasionally)  participate in some of the NCL cup competitions, weather permitting, but unless there was external funding for air flights, they would not be able to join the league even if/when it is granted tier 6  pyramid status, alongside the Juniors league.

. .  

I'd love to see the pyramid becoming truly national and have clubs like Lewis & Harris FC in it together with some other island clubs. But there would have to be some kind of travel subsidy for the really remote teams. That's not unachievable though imo as the amount of clubs that would take the step and need the subsidies will be very low.

Even with travel subsidies I can't see Shetland FC in the pyramid though as logistically that would be too difficult with how remote they are.

[Guest]

The east juiors currently remain a North and south divide, I haven't seen or heard anything that would state this is not the plan for their operating structure next season, regardless of pyramid prospects.

The option z 'suggestion' is simply that. Junior clubs were given four options to highlight what they felt they would prefer. Obviously they would choose the highest entry point they could (ask for a unicorn, get a pony and all that).

What posters are attempting to do, for reasons only they know is to suggest that this option not only had sfa support and backing but is now likely to happen. The reason for this? The sfa apparently want it to happen. Which they haven't actually stated. Anywhere.

Option z is surrounded in red tape, as is pretty much everything to do with both splitting the LL and having another east feeder league operate at the same level in the same area as the eos. For any changes to happen to the LL or HL set ups the following bodies must universally agree on any changes: sfa, spfl, LL, HL, eosfl and sosfl. Everyone has to agree, not one association forcing their will onto any other, 100% of the associations have to agree or there will be no agreement or no change. That is how the processes and policies are set out. This includes a split or change to the boundary line.

The sjfa, and its supporters are attempting to muddy the water, blur the boundaries and sell propaganda that is simply not based in fact. They are also unable to provide any factual evidence, other than paper clippings, to support what they are suggesting.

Option z will ultimately fall on its own sword and sadly we will be another year down the line with nothing to show for it. [emoji854]

[Dev]

38 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

My opinion is that if the ERJFA are required to form a 16 team super League to gain access to tier 6 which would result in teams from West Lothian travelling to Carnoustie,Forfar and Dundee would be a bad decision. This would not be a viable option and could lead to a further exodus of clubs from the region.

 

Your club would be more than welcome if it makes the move. Same for the others too.

[Che Dail]

26 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Every now and then I let this thread run for pages on end then come back to see how the debate is progressing - yet again I've opened the thread and I'm reading this same tired argument. 

Players with ambition will want to play at the highest level possible, players who are happy at their level will be able to stay there if somebody wants them. Rory McAllister could easily have played full time football for the last 6 or 7 years, he's knocked that back time and time again and played virtually his whole career in tier 3 and 4 when he could have played tier 2 as a minimum. There's room for everyone, it's certainly not a reason for holding up a pyramid or for clubs not looking to join it.

Judging by: Edinburgh City and Cove on their way through, the progress Bonnyrigg and Kelty have made after a season or two in LL, and Berwick and East Stirling on their way down and that's before the best of the rest of East Juniors appear.

I'm fairly certain the West Juniors would be competitive too and that, realistically, LL / HL IS the best level for half the clubs in SPL 2. 

Small country, too many 'pro' clubs.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Che Dail

[FairWeatherFan]

Is anyone able to post the exact wording of Options W, X, Y and Z?

Think the only ones i've seen are summary of them.

[Che Dail]

16 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Given it’s common practice for players to travel an hour to training and move from Ayr to Peterhead or Stranraer to Arbroath I really don’t think travel is a big an issue for most players as some like to make out.

Aye but Peterhead are in L1 and you're playing Raith, Falkirk, Airdrie, Forfar - big clubs; Arbroath in the Championship, another big jump up and no doubt worth the travel. 

But frankly there's not a significant enough step up from LL / HL to L2 to justify a whole league of it.

[LongTimeLurker]

56 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

My opinion is that if the ERJFA are required to form a 16 team super League to gain access to tier 6 which would result in teams from West Lothian travelling to Carnoustie,Forfar and Dundee would be a bad decision. This would not be a viable option and could lead to a further exodus of clubs from the region.

...and this is probably how the merger with or Borg style assimilation by the EoS would happen if Option Z was implemented.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Aye but Peterhead are in L1 and you're playing Raith, Falkirk, Airdrie, Forfar - big clubs; Arbroath in the Championship, another big jump up and no doubt worth the travel. 

But frankly there's not a significant enough step up from LL / HL to L2 to justify a whole league of it.

Tell that to the turnover of players at Edinburgh City and Cove Rangers since getting promoted.

[The Moonster]

41 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Judging by: Edinburgh City and Cove on their way through, the progress Bonnyrigg and Kelty have made after a season or two in LL, and Berwick and East Stirling on their way down and that's before the best of the rest of East Juniors appear.

I'm fairly certain the West Juniors would be competitive too and that, realistically, LL / HL IS the best level for half the clubs in SPL 2. 

Small country, too many 'pro' clubs.

The glory of a pyramid is that every team finds their level. I've no doubt teams will be competitive, hence why I want everyone in the pyramid. What we have now puts teams in false positions.

[surely not!]

Tell that to the turnover of players at Edinburgh City and Cove Rangers since getting promoted.

The last player from city’s promotion squad left a few months ago and he’d been the only one left for the best part of two seasons.

[parsforlife]

Aye but Peterhead are in L1 and you're playing Raith, Falkirk, Airdrie, Forfar - big clubs; Arbroath in the Championship, another big jump up and no doubt worth the travel. 
But frankly there's not a significant enough step up from LL / HL to L2 to justify a whole league of it.

These sort of moves happened when teams were sharing divisions, indeed paddy Boyle stepped down to league 2 to play for Peterhead. Yeah he’d have been payed well for it but that just proves the spfl clubs have the money to makes those moves happen.

Smart moving to Elgin from Albion rovers? Osman see going to them from Berwick?

You can just about pick any player who has played more than a couple of years in the lower leagues and they’ll have played in quite a few different areas of the country.

[Che Dail]

45 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

These sort of moves happened when teams were sharing divisions, indeed paddy Boyle stepped down to league 2 to play for Peterhead. Yeah he’d have been payed well for it but that just proves the spfl clubs have the money to makes those moves happen.

Smart moving to Elgin from Albion rovers? Osman see going to them from Berwick?

You can just about pick any player who has played more than a couple of years in the lower leagues and they’ll have played in quite a few different areas of the country.

 

Yes altho Ouzy See isn't the best example as he's from Edinburgh, an hour either way (to Berwick or Coatbridge).

Peterhead in L1 not L2... solid club and pay well.

But off to Elgin from the central belt every other week isn't for everyone - 7hrs on the road for L2 football?

[Vollyman]

Aye they would but Volleyman wants all the Fife teams punted to a Fife/Tayside league and the present Tayside boundary changed.[emoji4]
"There has to be compromise the present Tayside boundary must be changed. Tayside and Fife clubs should form a region with all West Lothian clubs joining the EOS. There would then be 4 regions involved in a playoff for promotion to the Lowland League"

There was no mention of Fife teams in my post your conclusion is a load of bullshit.

[Che Dail]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Tell that to the turnover of players at Edinburgh City and Cove Rangers since getting promoted.

2 squads of L1 players because that's what they are pushing for, constantly improving.

But then that's what my proposal allows for, I.e. the top 4 would go up. 

[Che Dail]

3 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

SPFL is  much higher profile. That is fact. Match stats in all the usual papers. Goalflashes and red cards on Sky Sports, BBC etc...  score updates on national radio.

Yes, but higher profile doesn't always equate to better quality.  Because it's on the telly and the length of time the clubs have 'aye been' in the upper levels of the game we are all programmed to believe that somehow it must be better instead of honestly appraising and questioning it. Is like 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.

The whole perceived status thing around it is for vanity and it doesn't advance Scottish Football. 

See the Danish Pyramid attached. Regional at T3, with 4 feeders below. About the same population as us, and arguably less regionally diverse in terms of its geography.

Denmark = 16th FIFA ranking

Scotland = 50th

And their clubs fare better than ours in Europe.

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Che Dail

[parsforlife]

The spfl lower leagues are comfortably a better standard than 99% of non league sides.

And Cowdenbeath traveling to Elgin instead of Gretna has 0 influence on our national ranking. None.