Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

What is so appealing for the likes of Cowdenbeath and Albion Rovers to be in a national league?  What would they be giving up?  The standard between bottom half L2 and top LL is comparable - but they don't have to trail their players and officials all around the country for, mostly, pointless games of football.

40-50k or more for finishing in the SPFL. At least 17k from the Betfred Cup. The money from the Challenge Cup as well.

Greater recognition and awareness being in the national league. You've got them competing for profile and players against 60+ clubs not just 10 or 20 of the top part time clubs in the country.

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

League status is all they have.    Give that up and they are just another small club, as ES and Berwick have shown.

They won't give that up voluntarily.

But as time has shown, the world continues to spin for Berwick Rangers and East Stirlingshire.  No footballing apocalypse - life goes on. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

The leagues are loosely focussed around the major cities: Inverness, Aberdeen & Dundee; Edinburgh & Perth; Glasgow & Stirling;

It's a high-level approach to the problem, no point worrying about 'detail' just now.  But it shows how the Tayside Juniors could reasonably fit in to the pyramid, and a pretty decent West League for the strong Junior clubs to aspire to.  And also, strong leagues for clubs in the professional structure to 'drop' into, even though they'd most likely be BETTER OFF.

But according to you clubs like camelon, dundonald, blackburn who are at the forefront to move will be cast aside to let kilwinning auchinleck and other juniors who didnt care

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

40-50k or more for finishing in the SPFL. At least 17k from the Betfred Cup. The money from the Challenge Cup as well.

Greater recognition and awareness being in the national league. You've got them competing for profile and players against 60+ clubs not just 10 or 20 of the top part time clubs in the country.

But that wouldn't necessarily change if the right sponsorship is sought.  If they finish high enough up the league at the same tier, they'll have earned it. 

 

[Che Dail]

6 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

But according to you clubs like camelon, dundonald, blackburn who are at the forefront to move will be cast aside to let kilwinning auchinleck and other juniors who didnt care

I would expect that in the course of the 3 years, Camelon and Dundonald (and possibly Blackburn who knows?) will have displaced some of the lower LL East clubs, and by then the West clubs will have served the penance you crave. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Che Dail

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

But as time has shown, the world continues to spin for Berwick Rangers and East Stirlingshire.  No footballing apocalypse - life goes on. 

I'm only calling it how I see if.  the clubs don't want to lose league status and their fans don't want to either.  With Berwick's struggles, and Brechin clearly bricking it, there's no chance of that changing.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

But that wouldn't necessarily change if the right sponsorship is sought.  If they finish high enough up the league at the same tier, they'll have earned it. 

 

So ball park figure the 10 League Two clubs make in excess of 600k.

Do you seriously think 64 clubs playing regionally can even touch that figure? Let alone make more than that?

 

[LongTimeLurker]

44 minutes ago, HTG said:

The only reasonable way that the HL/LL boundary can be moved further north so that Tayside/Angus sits in the south is if the Lowland League is split into an east/west feeder. It is patently unreasonable to further increase the number of clubs in the south and pretend that the 2 areas carry equal weighting....

That's the plan with Option Z.

HL fed by NCL, NRSJFA

LL East fed by EoS, ERSJFA

LL West fed by SoS, WRSJFA

all the necessary changes for that to happen appear to be in motion.

Edited January 20, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Che Dail]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I'm only calling it how I see if.  the clubs don't want to lose league status and their fans don't want to either.  With Berwick's struggles, and Brechin clearly bricking it, there's no chance of that changing.

I know you are and you're right:  Self preservation / me-first attitudes instead of collaborating to improve things for the greater good seems to be the Scottish Football way. 

Honestly, where is our place right now on the world scene as a footballing nation? Take the national team and the top level clubs in a European context... then work your way all the way down to L2 and just think if the top league is poor / mediocre,  how bad are Brechin?  Is that league really so important in the grand scheme of things? Just no very good is it?

[Ray Patterson]

3 hours ago, Marten said:

With the south of Tay ERJFA having pushed regionalisation and likely to pretty much disappear soon with more clubs moving over, that would be a better solution than just having the same few clubs in a small area to play against. No disrespect to the other ERJFA north sides, but playing the same teams all the time and rarely travelling outside of Tayside will get boring soon.

Honestly didn't think this was a likely outcome so didn't suggest it.

Suppose there's some precedent in the GA Engineering Cup, (Or whatever's it called now) between the two regions.

For 2021-22, there could be a 16 team HL, with at tier 6 a North Caley League (maybe plus Clach/Fort and a couple of Moray based Juniors?) and a North Eastern Premier, with Grampian and Tayside Regional leagues below at Tier 7.

Just for example, based on this years positions:
 

Spoiler

 

Tier 5: 16 Team HL: Everyone bar Fort.

Tier 6:
North Eastern Premier - 14 clubs : Banks O'Dee, Culter, Deveronside, Dyce, Hermes, Montrose Roselea, Bridge of Don Thistle, Carnoustie Panmure, Broughty Ath, Lochee United, Dundee North End, Downfield, Luncarty*, Kirriemuir Thistle

North Caledonian (12 clubs): Fort William, Nairn St Ninian, Invergordon, Tain St Duthus, Thurso, Orkney, Golspie Sutherland, Halkirk United, Inverness Athletic, Bunillidh Thistle, Bonar Bridge. Forres Thistle (No Relegation)

Tier 7:
North Eastern Div 1 - Grampian (12 clubs): Banchory St. Ternan, Colony Park, Aberdeen East End, Hall Russell United, Ellon United, Maud, Sunnybank, Aberdeen Uni, Stonehaven, Fraserburgh United, Longside, Stoneywood-Parkvale

North Eastern Div 1 - Tayside (12 Clubs): Scone Thistle, Tayport, Forfar West End, Blairgowrie, East Craigie, Abroath Vics, Dundee Violet, Brechin Vics, Lochee Harp, Coupar Angus, Newburgh

Tier 8:
North Eastern Div 2: Grampian (12 clubs): Dufftown, Buckie Rovers, Buchanhaven Hearts, Burghead, Islavale, Newmacher Utd, Spey Valley, New Elgin, Cruden Bay, Glentanar, Whitehills, Robert Gordons Uni.

 

 

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, ham1sh68 said:

There was a meeting last week involving representatives of the HFL and the NRJFA at which the North Juniors expressed a willingness to join the Pyramid as a feeder for the Highland League ( although the vast majority of clubs would not qualify to accept promotion should they win any play-off, Banks o'Dee currently being the only exception). It is understood that the North Caledonian League would also be involved in this set up but there has been no official notification of their commitment yet.

The tone of the meeting was such that it appears the SFA want this regional solution to the Pyramid question resolved quickly and it appears that there may be a willingness on all sides for this to be in place for the start of next season.

This would not cause a great upheaval in the North with only Banks o'Dee in a position to be promoted through the Pyramid but it may well affect long time strugglers Fort William who could possibly find themselves en route to the NCL if their fortunes do not improve.

In the long run however, there would be a great incentive for those North Juniors with enough ambition to better themselves and progress up the ladder.

Officials from the North Caley League held pyramid discussions with the HFL, and a PWG rep(s), last year. The NCL confirmed tits interest in joining the pyramid, alongside the NRJFA  if/when the juniors join.  At present, both the North Juniors (Banks O'Dee) and the NCL (Golspie Sutherland)  have one club each which has an SFA licence.

Fort William seriously considered rejoining the North Caley last season, but the appointment of a new management team, meant that this move was not actioned.

The standard of football in the NCL has improved considerably during the last decade, and clubs like Thurso, Orkney, Invergordon, Golspie and St Duthus (from Tain),would be competitive in the North junior leagues.   (In the Scottish Cup 2019/20 (2nd Prelim Round) : Banks O'Dee 2 Golspie 0 was a lot closer than most people anticipated). 

More significantly, the NCL represents the North and West Highlands & Islands, and the city of Inverness itself. There are no Junior clubs in this vast  region.  Hence the need for two pyramid leagues, with a play-off between them, if/when both their champion clubs are licensed.......as was the situation in 2018/19.  However to combine these separate leagues, as an integrated Tier 6, would not be acceptable or viable, for either league.

    

 

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

I know you are and you're right:  Self preservation / me-first attitudes instead of collaborating to improve things for the greater good seems to be the Scottish Football way. 

Honestly, where is our place right now on the world scene as a footballing nation? Take the national team and the top level clubs in a European context... then work your way all the way down to L2 and just think if the top league is poor / mediocre,  how bad are Brechin?  Is that league really so important in the grand scheme of things? Just no very good is it?

I don't disagree at all, have long said we have far too many clubs playing nationally.

However, the only way to remotely change that, is to gradually change what is below them and a massive part of that is getting the west clubs on board. However it looks like that won't happen next season as they pursue their fantasy LL split.

[AlanCamelonfan]

18 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That's the plan with Option Z.

HL fed by NCL, NRSJFA

LL East fed by EoS, ERSJFA

LL West fed by SoS, WRSJFA

all the necessary changes for that to happen appear to be in motion.

It really isn't. Its complete fantasy. THE SFA wanted tier 6 sorted and now according to you its goign to shake up tier 6 you are talking shite mate same as you did last year with tier 6 done deal.

I think we are all getting side tracked and people jumping the gun. TJ Looking after his own guard. The only way forward is the west to come in at tier 6 and ersjfa south to join the EOSFL. Tayside to go north  with the long term goal of having a Highland League fed by North/Tayside. A Lowland LEague West served by West/South which I think could be doing with merging aswell in the long term and of course a Lowland League East served by the EOSFL.

 

[Burnie_man]

27 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That's the plan with Option Z.

 

all the necessary changes for that to happen appear to be in motion.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

It really isn't. Its complete fantasy. THE SFA wanted tier 6 sorted and now according to you its goign to shake up tier 6 you are talking shite mate same as you did last year with tier 6 done deal...

^^^Just so nobody gets taken in by this, I did no such thing last year. I was one of the first people to post about the LL playoff rule and its implications and tried to explain it to Clydebank and Lochee United supporters when they were pushing the done deal narrative as I could see where things were heading. I also posted about how there was nothing in the SFA constitution about "board directives". If the LL splits or is split the LL playoff rule is probably no longer a factor so Option Z is not a rerun of what happened last year.

[FairWeatherFan]

23 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That's the plan with Option Z.

HL fed by NCL, NRSJFA

LL East fed by EoS, ERSJFA

LL West fed by SoS, WRSJFA

all the necessary changes for that to happen appear to be in motion.

Or even easier.

HL fed by NCL, North Region, Tayside

LL fed by EOSFL, SOSFL, West Region

Only change there is South of Tay clubs into the EoSFL with what's left of the East Region into Tayside. Helped largely by the East Region splitting regionally already.

No need for a boundary change.

No need to renegotiate the SPFL playoff.

No need to wait for an unknown number of clubs to get licensed.

No need to gut the West Region and EoSFL set ups.

[Guest]

^^^Just so nobody gets taken in by this, I did no such thing last year. I was one of the first people to post about the LL playoff rule and its implications and tried to explain it to Clydebank and Lochee United supporters when they were pushing the done deal narrative as I could see where things were heading. I also posted about how there was nothing in the SFA constitution about "board directives". If the LL splits or is split the LL playoff rule is probably no longer a factor so Option Z is not a rerun of what happened last year.

^^^^ so nobody gets taken in by this [emoji4]

You couldn't script this if you tried.

Nothing is in motion. Please stop lurker.

[Jack Burton]

POSSIBLE ROADMAP:
Season 2020/21 - Aberdeen & Dundee Juniors to form a 'Superleague', feeding into the HFL; West Juniors join the pyramid exactly as they are, feeding into the LL.  East Juniors (West Lothian and Fife join EoS league)
Season 2021/22 - Continue with the league structure, clubs progress towards SFA Licence
Season 2022/23 - Dissolve L2 and promote the LL and HL to tier 4 to look something like this (based on current standings):

The SPFL only wanted one feeder league at tier 5 and you are proposing 4? Scotland's a small country we don't need a 4 way split at tier 5. If clubs are struggling with that then they should be nowhere near tier 5.

The suggested leagues are laughable as well. The likes of Stirling Albion and Brechin get crowds of 500 at £14 ahead. You've got them in a league playing some sides that will be lucky to get over 100 paying a lot less.

There is no need to regionalise SPFL2 the fans don't want it and the clubs don't want it.

[Cameron Wilson]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Good news.  The ERJFA North clubs can now seek a link-up with the North Region to ensure Pyramid entry for next season and access to Licencing.

ERJFA South clubs join EoS,  West moves en-masse. 

No need to tamper with HL/LL boundary or the LL.  Job done.......

Exactamondo!

There's really nothing complicated here, but deliberate misinformation from somewhere in the juniors is still fooling people somehow.

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^Just so nobody gets taken in by this, I did no such thing last year. I was one of the first people to post about the LL playoff rule and its implications and tried to explain it to Clydebank and Lochee United supporters when they were pushing the done deal narrative as I could see where things were heading. I also posted about how there was nothing in the SFA constitution about "board directives". If the LL splits or is split the LL playoff rule is probably no longer a factor so Option Z is not a rerun of what happened last year.

You also wanted the ERJFA in at tier 6 for this season, and were left disappointed.  Now you're trumpeting a plan that sees ERJFA (what's left of it) in at tier 7 with a boundary move and a LL split.

If you could see last year that there was no way a "done deal" was true, then why are you peddling the LL split and border move as "wheels in motion" when there is no evidence to suggest any of that?  

It's this years "done deal".