Junior football, what is the future?

[glensmad]

I just wonder how the departure of Scott Robertson will affect the West Region management committee's approach to how they handle this going forward. Especially with the West Region President being so closely linked to one of the clubs who would jump into the pyramid in a heartbeat. Will there be the same amount of blazer protection from now on ? Time will tell.

[Che Dail]

26 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I just wonder how the departure of Scott Robertson will affect the West Region management committee's approach to how they handle this going forward. Especially with the West Region President being so closely linked to one of the clubs who would jump into the pyramid in a heartbeat. Will there be the same amount of blazer protection from now on ? Time will tell.

It's not even a 'jump', it is just disconnecting the West Assoc from clubs on other side of the country.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Ped said:

Aren't we forgetting if the lowland league split they would still be running both leagues and there west members get put in that league before the juniors so the sjfa would still have no say in the running of the lowland west 

"LL east" and "LL west" could just as easily be placeholder names for two new fully separate tier 5 league setups, so don't agree with the first bit. The second bit is an interesting point to come out of this meeting though. I was very surprised that the WRSJFA blazers would be actively pushing an option that could for the sake of argument mean Auchinleck Talbot, Clydebank, Pollok, Cumnock, Irvine Meadow, Kilwinning Rangers, Largs Thistle, Kilbirnie, Beith and  Hurlford leaving at the end of season 2020-21 to bring the numbers up to 16 for a new tier 5 professional game board level league that would fall outside the jurisdication of the SJFA. That's a shortcut to higher up the pyramid for whatever clubs would be involved on that, but would weaken the WRSJFA and by extension the "Holy Grail". Over and out for a few more hours.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

"LL east" and "LL west" could just as easily be placeholder names for two new fully separate tier 5 league setups, so don't agree with the first bit.

So the Lowland League go from only being interested in themselves. No additional relegation, LL2 idea as an extra buffer.

Now they're magically giving up their power base and influence for nothing in return. Making it harder for existing members to get promoted. Which is certainly where EK, Spartans, BSC, East Stiringshire, Berwick, Kelty, Bonnyrigg and Caledonian Braves want to get to.

By the way who gets into the Betfred Cup and Tunnock's Cup from now on if there are 3 feeders at Tier 5? That's what at least £19k a year in prize money to the LL champions.

Betfred Cup only allows for 2 non-league entrants. Tunnock's Cup has 8 currently. Not really numbers that allow for mutliples of 3 without changes.

[Burnie_man]

32 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

"LL east" and "LL west" could just as easily be placeholder names for two new fully separate tier 5 league setups, so don't agree with the first bit. The second bit is an interesting point to come out of this meeting though. I was very surprised that the WRSJFA blazers would be actively pushing an option that could for the sake of argument mean Auchinleck Talbot, Clydebank, Pollok, Cumnock, Irvine Meadow, Kilwinning Rangers, Largs Thistle, Kilbirnie, Beith and  Hurlford leaving at the end of season 2020-21 to bring the numbers up to 16 for a new tier 5 professional game board level league that would fall outside the jurisdication of the SJFA. That's a shortcut to higher up the pyramid for whatever clubs would be involved on that, but would weaken the WRSJFA and by extension the "Holy Grail". Over and out for a few more hours.

I think you were already told that the WRJFA only backed "option Z" to feed into any future LLWest.  By all accounts there was no mention of 10 or 12 Superleague clubs moving en-masse to fill the initial spaces as part of the process.

What was it they were actively pushing for again?

 

[Jack Burton]

Look folks, what we have here is some-one - LongTimeLurker - putting forward a stir-up of theories which create debate at a time when the SJFA and the East region Juniors are in difficulty with the potential for a significant exodus of clubs from the East Juniors to the EoS. This is seen as an existential threat to the SJFA as if the east goes then the West will tumble soon enough and that will be the end for a meaningful SJFA.
Someone has to fight their corner on P&B so that's about it really. Look back at the build up to the last exodus of East Juniors to the seniors and you will see why the SJFA is in such a panic when this time of the season arrives. They're a pack of cards waiting to be blown over by those who are competent at running leagues. There's an alternative for current Juniors in the East. That's why the SJFA are desparate to avoid an alternative for clubs in the West (not South).
I feel sorry for LongTimeLurker. Although I can't see much point in entertaining him/her by being drawn into responding to his "provocation".

The SJFA made an absolute pigs ear of the situation in the east. The East junior region was far stronger than the EOS before the exodus of clubs. Had they been forward thinking then East junior league could have been tier 6 in the east.

Now they are doing the same in the west with their "done deal" last season and now delaying west entry till 21/22 for a LL West that is unlikely to happen.

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, gaz5 said:

Yet the reason given by Rod Petrie at the EoS meeting for limiting licenced clubs (which eventually led to associate membership for Tier 6 and below with no voting rights) was "having to listen to the concerns of existing members".

Hmm, nope, sure the two things have nothing in common and the SPFL will be happy to lose their voting majority to the non league block in order to get the Juniors what they want, at no benefit at all to the SPFL or anyone else.

Seems a legit theory.

 

It's a shame that the Lurker, can't see why the SFA membership voting rules were changed to 'relegate' licensed clubs playing at tier 6 and below, to Associate Membership status only. As gaz5  correctly states, the licensed clubs at tiers 6 & 7 have now  lost their voting rights.

Never mind, we can at least (still) enjoy the Lurker's ongoing posts  on this forum, during 2020 (and beyond). 

 

FOOTNOTE : I assume that the 4 remaining clubs  (currently outside the pyramid) who have 'historic'  voting rights, namely Banks O'Dee, Girvan, Golspie Sutherland, and  Glasgow University, have now also lost their full SFA membership, meaning that as Associate Members, they have also lost their SFA voting rights.    Is this correct ?

 

[leomessi1984]

13 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

The SJFA made an absolute pigs ear of the situation in the east. The East junior region was far stronger than the EOS before the exodus of clubs. Had they been forward thinking then East junior league could have been tier 6 in the east.

Now they are doing the same in the west with their "done deal" last season and now delaying west entry till 21/22 for a LL West that is unlikely to happen.

It'll take just a couple of big clubs either going or stating concrete intent to go to start the west mass exodus.  Talk to most ex-junior clubs fans through in the east and they will tell you that 2 years ago they would have thought the current situation highly unlikely.

If a Talbot or a Pollock do a "Kelty" we will see what the rest say.

[leomessi1984]

15 minutes ago, gogsy said:

*olloks

Think I may have added a letter in my spelling there too Gogsy.....I'll be for it now

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Dev said:

Look folks, what we have here is some-one - LongTimeLurker - putting forward a stir-up of theories which create debate at a time when the SJFA and the East region Juniors are in difficulty with the potential for a significant exodus of clubs from the East Juniors to the EoS. This is seen as an existential threat to the SJFA as if the east goes then the West will tumble soon enough and that will be the end for a meaningful SJFA.

Someone has to fight their corner on P&B so that's about it really. Look back at the build up to the last exodus of East Juniors to the seniors and you will see why the SJFA is in such a panic when this time of the season arrives. They're a pack of cards waiting to be blown over by those who are competent at running leagues. There's an alternative for current Juniors in the East. That's why the SJFA are desparate to avoid an alternative for clubs in the West (not South).

I feel sorry for LongTimeLurker. Although I can't see much point in entertaining him/her by being drawn into responding to his "provocation".

The SJFA's "panic" is evident, as it hasn't (as far as I am aware) published the results for each of the options chosen by the Junior clubs themselves. Why ?

I suspect that there wasn't an outright winning Option ?  

Also, someone on this forum, has posted that there is a Clydebank meeting today. We can guess why ?

I would also hazard a guess that the 2 junior clubs (apparently Cumnock and A N Other) who submitted Licence applications to the SFA approximately a year ago, will now realise that their pyramid aspirations look to have been thwarted again, for 2020/21, and will also meet to decide their immediate future.  Under existing SFA rules, these junior clubs can't be awarded a licence , unless they are playing in a pyramid'feeder'  league. 

Furthermore,  what about Talbot, and a few other Junior clubs, who are looking to buy/erect floodlights, presumably (?) so that they can become licensed in the near future. Why bother otherwise ?

I for one, won't be surprised if some Junior clubs decide to 'do a Kelty'  in order to achieve pyramid entry, possibly in time for 2020/21.  Remember that new SLL club East Kilbride was originally advised by the SFA, to join the South of Scotland League. This was later followed by Caledonian Braves (ex Edusport),  and Bonnyton Thistle, both ambitious  west teams, joining the SoSL. 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

 

It's a shame that the Lurker, can't see why the SFA membership voting rules were changed to 'relegate' licensed clubs playing at tier 6 and below, to Associate Membership status only. As gaz5  correctly states, the licensed clubs at tiers 6 & 7 have now  lost their voting rights.

Never mind, we can at least (still) enjoy the Lurker's ongoing posts  on this forum, during 2020 (and beyond).

You did not understand my reply and my understanding is that you are wrong about previously licensed clubs losing their voting rights. The new class of associate membership only applies to clubs that get licensed from the end of this season onwards. Everybody else is grandfathered in. The SPFL are already outnumbered in other words and the sky hasn't caved in for them because of it.

What the SPFL clubs feared was a vast influx of many new members at tiers 6 and 7 given 130 junior clubs with enclosed grounds were suddenly on the verge of pyramid entry after the SJFA decided they wanted to join. Adding the foodlights requirement at very short notice was also part of heading off a sudden massive influx into full membership at the pass. In comparison to that, an extra tier 5 league may be viewed as manageable.

For example, it could be viewed as part of providing a better crash landing zone for existing members from a League One and Two sort of perspective (Queen's Park vs Pollok is a probably a more appetising prospect than Queen's Park vs Vale of Leithen, for example), and as a recruiting ground for clubs that might help strengthen the quality in depth of the SPFL over the longer term when viewed from a Championship and Premiership sort of vantage point.

55 minutes ago, leomessi1984 said:

It'll take just a couple of big clubs either going or stating concrete intent to go to start the west mass exodus.  Talk to most ex-junior clubs fans through in the east and they will tell you that 2 years ago they would have thought the current situation highly unlikely.

If a Talbot or a Pollock do a "Kelty" we will see what the rest say.

The club that was on the verge of doing a "Kelty" two seasons ago was Clydebank. The vice-president of the SJFA is from that club so they will be very much in the loop on what is happening as will some of the other clubs that are most likely to want to jump to the pyramid pronto. As things stand the SJFA are still trying to get all three regions in and Option Z is being viewed as a viable vehicle for achieving that outcome. I doubt you'll see anyone doing a "Kelty" unless or until (we don't have long to find out which) there are crystal clear reasons to believe it isn't.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As things stand the SJFA are still trying to get all three regions in and Option Z is being viewed as a viable vehicle for achieving that outcome. 

Deluded AF.

AMAZING that people actually believe this has any chance of succeeding, after sitting through years and years of procrastination.

[Burnie_man]

The club that was on the verge of doing a "Kelty" two seasons ago was Clydebank. The vice-president of the SJFA is from that club so they will be very much in the loop on what is happening as will some of the other clubs that are most likely to want to jump to the pyramid pronto. As things stand the SJFA are still trying to get all three regions in and Option Z is being viewed as a viable vehicle for achieving that outcome. I doubt you'll see anyone doing a "Kelty" unless or until (we don't have long to find out which) there are crystal clear reasons to believe it isn't.

The associate status applied at the start of last years AGM, therefore the clubs admitted last year don't have voting rights. They will only get such rights if and when they reach tier 5.

 

Seeking to add 16 clubs into tier 5 with voting rights flies right in the face of the reasons why they took the step to restrict voting rights in the first place.

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 In comparison to that, an extra tier 5 league may be viewed as manageable.

• You think that the Lowland League will split into two seperate entities, that means that the Professional Game Board would have to have another tier 5 league represented.
• It means another league with voting rights within the SFA.
• All clubs in a league represented on the Professional Game Board contend the Scottish Cup proper. Scottish Cup needs more dramatic restructuring than it might do currently.
• SPFL League Cup and SPFL Challenge Cup has to be reformatted.
• South Region Challenge Cup has the LL, EoSFL, SoSFL and those that competed in the last Qualifying Cup (South) within it. That means those clubs can no longer compete in the Junior Scottish Cup as there would be too much of a conflict with the League season and the SRCC.
• Lowland League Cup could well expand to 32 clubs to represent both West and East further limiting participation in existing regional cups.
• The West Region in particular would lose a significant portion of its members to the start up LL West.
• Promotion and Relegation between the SPFL and Tier 5 hasn't been formatted.
• Still has the issue of EoSFL and East Region overlapping.
• Still has the HL/LL boundary, with it becoming more of a HL/LL East boundary issue
• Is there a West / East boundary or do clubs at Tier 5 get moved depending on numbers, and would the HL also have to be included in a floating boundary.

 

All Option Z represents is an idea. One that's not been thought through on any level and that was part of the reason for discussion of all the options. Which didn't happen on Thursday in the way it was meant to. You've even got people thinking they voted for the status quo with promotion to a Tier 5 West of Scotland League.

If you think all of that can resolved in time for 2021-22, plus other issues I can't think of right now. Then i'm not sure you've been paying attention to how Scottish Football operates.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

27 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

• You think...

 

Last follow up for a while. As explained multiple times already I am not expressing support for Option Z, because beyond anything else what some random P&B poster thinks means diddlysquat in the big scheme of things. What's interesting in my opinion is why the people that actually matter would think it's a viable option worth pursuing despite the many issues you list and why the WRSJFA blazers would be steering their clubs in this direction in preference to the west juniors in first option that we were recently being told by posters on here with west region connections was what was going to happen.

It's usually better not to ascribe motives, but a pet theory would be that if you are Rod Petrie and you have finally clambered your way up the greasy pole to be Big Brother Almighty of Scottish fitba so you can look foward to mingling with the likes of Pele and Michel Platini at FIFA and UEFA events in Geneva, it probably doesn't sit well having Gaz fae Denny from some tier 6 diddy league that you were barely even aware existed telling you what you can and can't do on junior entry to the pyramid and where league boundaries are...

Edited January 19, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Last follow up for a while. As explained multiple times already I am not expressing support for Option Z, because beyond anything else what some randown P&B poster thinks means diddlysquat in the big scheme of things. What's interesting in my opinion is why the people that actually matter would think it's a viable option worth pursuing despite the many issues you list and why the WRSJFA blazers would be steering their clubs in this direction in preference to the west juniors in first option that we were recently being told by posters on here with west region connections was what was going to happen.

It's usually better not ascribe motives, but a pet theory would be that if you are Rod Petrie and you have finally clambered your way up the greasy pole to be Big Brother Almighty of Scottish fitba so you can look foward to mingling with the likes of Pele and Michel Platini at FIFA and UEFA events in Geneva, it probably doesn't sit well having Gaz fae Denny from some tier 6 diddy league that you were barely even aware existed telling you what you can and can't do on junior entry to the pyramid and where league boundaries are...

Because as you can see from the write ups around previous interactions with Rod Petrie and Ian Maxwell in public settings they don't have a clue about the specifics of the issues. Or how trying to fix one issue, has the knock on effect to something else.

1. Angus SPFL clubs want the HL/LL boundary moved. Sure
2. East Region want to be in the LL area too. Sure
3. Lowland League covers too big an area. Split it in to 3 leagues.
4. West / East boundary
5. SPFL to Tier 5 promotion / relegation
6. Cups, Administration, Clubs that will exist in it

 

[gaz5]

Last follow up for a while. As explained multiple times already I am not expressing support for Option Z, because beyond anything else what some random P&B poster thinks means diddlysquat in the big scheme of things. What's interesting in my opinion is why the people that actually matter would think it's a viable option worth pursuing despite the many issues you list and why the WRSJFA blazers would be steering their clubs in this direction in preference to the west juniors in first option that we were recently being told by posters on here with west region connections was what was going to happen.
It's usually better not to ascribe motives, but a pet theory would be that if you are Rod Petrie and you have finally clambered your way up the greasy pole to be Big Brother Almighty of Scottish fitba so you can look foward to mingling with the likes of Pele and Michel Platini at FIFA and UEFA events in Geneva, it probably doesn't sit well having Gaz fae Denny from some tier 6 diddy league that you were barely even aware existed telling you what you can and can't do on junior entry to the pyramid and where league boundaries are...

[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

I'm not from Denny or a team in Tier 6 mate, but nice try.

You like to look at the things that you claim are "interesting" but ignore the realities of having to deliver those things staring you in the face.

That's the sort of attitude that led to "Tier 6 done deal" last year and is looking like it will have the West sitting on the sidelines for at least another year.

[Marshmallo]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Deluded AF.

AMAZING that people actually believe this has any chance of succeeding, after sitting through years and years of procrastination.

Nobody actually believes it. It's a red herring by the SJFA to stall any movement for another season. They've got a couple of stooges on here posting made up dross masquerading as "questions" or "speculation". 

There is a league in the West already in the shape of the South of Scotland. 4-5 teams should come together and apply for that.

[honestman54]

5 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Nobody actually believes it. It's a red herring by the SJFA to stall any movement for another season. They've got a couple of stooges on here posting made up dross masquerading as "questions" or "speculation". 

There is a league in the West already in the shape of the South of Scotland. 4-5 teams should come together and apply for that.

Ive been thinking the same.  It would give the likes of Auchinleck or Cumnock a quick stab at Tier 6 against weaker teams rather than wait a tier 6 entry in a few seasons if and when a WOS league gets set up.

Edited January 19, 2020 by honestman54

[Marshmallo]

2 minutes ago, honestman54 said:

Ive been thinking the same.  It would give the likes of Auchinleck or Cumnock a quick stab at Tier 6 against weaker teams rather than wait a tier 6 entry in a few seasons if and when a WOS league gets set up.

Talbot strike me as though they'll need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the evil pyramid with its 40 quid tickets at Elgin every second Tuesday night.

Cumnock/Clydebank/Kilwinning all seem like clubs who might be best placed to take the lead on a move. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Marshmallo