Junior football, what is the future?

[BTID]

That is my fear. The west east lowland will sook in enough people into believing it’s going to happen when we all know it’ll be as we were this time next year. False promise that keeps the west clubs sweet whilst applying for the licenses. I can’t see teams including ourselves putting our head above the parapet. 

[Che Dail]

59 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Excellent post, which should be read by every ambitious club.

I suggest that you also post it on the Club Licence forum. It might prevent some 'blazers' from having sleepness nights. 

It could have been written by every ambitious club.

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I don't think that it would take many sides in the West to create a critical mass, but it does need one or two of the leading sides to demonstrate that they do want to progress, rather than settle for being the big fish in a diminishing pond, sweeping up the crumbs that remain in the juniors. 

If Clydebank did it again it would probably have a decent effect. 16-16-16-15 becomes 16-16-16-14 which is fine. Then another domino falls. Say you get to 4 that's pretty critical. 16-16-14-13 region wide isn't neccessarily all that attractive. Some will call for the return of Ayrshire & Central districts but that's too messy to unpick for 2020-21.

Suddenly you're no longer comparing the status quo with an alternative that exists inside the pyramid. It's one mess versus another with pros and cons to weighed.

 

 

[Tutankhamen]

36 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If Clydebank did it again it would probably have a decent effect. 16-16-16-15 becomes 16-16-16-14 which is fine. Then another domino falls. Say you get to 4 that's pretty critical. 16-16-14-13 region wide isn't neccessarily all that attractive. Some will call for the return of Ayrshire & Central districts but that's too messy to unpick for 2020-21.

Suddenly you're no longer comparing the status quo with an alternative that exists inside the pyramid. It's one mess versus another with pros and cons to weighed.

 

 

If four big guns in the West break ranks another twenty four teams will follow sharpish. Wouldn't like to see what's left of the West Region if that happened.

[Dev]

4 hours ago, BTID said:

Quick question - if the proposal is west east LL and the west doesn’t move, how do you even get a breakaway league started? Who would run it?

In the past west clubs seeking to go senior e.g. Talbot, were told by the SFA  to go to the South of Scotland League. It only needs a small number of clubs to apply to this league in order for it to go to two divisions or EoS style Conferences. Winners go to the Lowland League play-off if licenced.

Alternatively check with the EoS or the Lowland leagues for assistance in setting up a new division as a fore-runner of a new WoS league.

Either way would provide a ready made SFA approved set of rules and regulations plus vital experience and contacts.

Ultimately it is about making things happen and not just waiting around/making excuses.

The alternative is to continue to be held to the equivalent of ransome by the Juniors?

Edited January 18, 2020 by Dev
up-date

[AsimButtHitsASix]

I, for one, am looking forward to Clydebank v Wigton & Bladnock in the SoS league next season.

[Black Pennel]

Do the SoS league still require a non-refundable deposit from new entrants ?

Don't know if that was actually introduced but they were definitely considering it for this very scenario.

Having watched the Bankies recently...I'm not even convinced they'd get promoted straight away anyway.

The rest of the West would do the same as when they voted to go East...collective shrug of shoulders...best of luck, lads....

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 minute ago, Black Pennel said:

The rest of the West would do the same as when they voted to go East...collective shrug of shoulders...best of luck, lads....

The rest of the East said similar things about Kelty joining the EoS. If Clydebank/any West team did join the SoS next season (and I don't think they will) and done as well as Kelty have done in recent years it could be the first domino...

[Black Pennel]

6 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I, for one, am looking forward to Clydebank v Wigton & Bladnock in the SoS league next season.

And I, for one, want the name of the opponents to be spelled  correctly. 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Just now, Black Pennel said:

And I, for one, want the name of the opponents to be spelled  correctly. 

Sorry. Clydebank v Freave Rovers

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Black Pennel said:

Do the SoS league still require a non-refundable deposit from new entrants ?

The bond has been there for years and it does get paid back.

25% after the completion of the first year. 50% after the completion of the second. Then the rest after the 3rd.

[Black Pennel]

Shoosh you !!

I'm watching match of the day...

[Burnie_man]

Where. Have. The. Sfa. Supported. Option. Z.?

Nowhere.

[Guest]

Funny how when you are asked to provide factual evidence to a narrative you keep peddling, which is full of misdirection and redirection you go quiet.

Still waiting, 6 months I might add, to see the full sfa statement regarding support for option z.

Another year goes by. Sad really. I was looking forward to seeing the west in next year at tier 6 and see some of the licensed clubs make their way into the LL the following season(s), most likely doing well in it and progressing into the leagues.

One can but live in hope that someone starts the ball rolling and break away.

[Robert James]

On 17/01/2020 at 20:51, LongTimeLurker said:

We'll find out soon if this option Z can be forced through in its entirety over EoS objections. A split LL has advantages either way. Having 6 vacancies open up in the LL east would get all the EoS premier clubs that deserve to be at tier 5 promoted much more quickly than the status quo way of doing things.

 You keep reiterating a scenario which proposes two Lowland leagues (East & West) at tier 5, instead of the retaining one Lowland league only.

Please note that the SFA is not  promoting an additional tier 5 league for the pyramid, because the SPFL clubs would not support/vote for it.  There is one very important reason why I believe it will not do so (at tier 5), because. neither the SFA nor the SPFL will allow a situation where the total number of tier 5 clubs, would exceed the total number of SPFL clubs at tiers 1 to 4.

This would be the case if  a 3rd (Lowland  West) league was created at tier 5.  Currently there are 42 full member clubs in the SPFL, and 33** HFL & SLL clubs at tier 5, which retains the status quo ('balance of power') with the league clubs at tiers 1 to 4.  However, if a 3rd tier 5 league was to be created,  there would be an increase from 33** to 49 clubs at tier 5.   A total which, in this scenario, would exceed the total number of the SPFL's 42  clubs.  Unacceptable !

I am sure that you know this will not (never ?) happen, so it doesn't help when you 'promote' this as a potential pyramid solution.  This causes confusion, which 'muddies the water', for ambitious junior clubs who may be considering a future in the pyramid. It also causes unnecessary delay in reaching a solution.

However I agree that there are still some very difficult pyramid decisions to be made at tier 6 and below. Let's keep debates on this forum, to those about the "future of the juniors",  at levels 6-9 only....... please.

** FOOTNOTE  :  the SFA wants the Highland League to reduce its membership from 17 to 16 clubs. This would mirror the Lowland League's membership of 16 clubs, and would comply with a ceiling at 32 clubs at tier 5 level. However the SFA doesn't have the power to enforce this reduction, at the present time.  

 

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, Robert James said:

 ....This would be the case if  a 3rd (Lowland  West) league was created at tier 5.  Currently there are 42 full member clubs in the SPFL, and 33** HFL & SLL clubs at tier 5, which retains the status quo ('balance of power') with the league clubs at tiers 1 to 4.  However, if a 3rd tier 5 league was to be created,  there would be an increase from 33** to 49 clubs at tier 5.   A total which, in this scenario, would exceed the total number of the SPFL's 42  clubs.  Unacceptable ! ...

The west region members appear to have been told that the SPFL support an LL west. Being outnumbered at an AGM by tier 5 clubs isn't necessarily an issue depending on how the professional game board is structured and given the limited range of issues (national team, Scottish Cup) that are involved.

Edited January 19, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[LongTimeLurker]

12 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

going by your logic they support all 4 options then. That doesn't make sense. SFA have put out ideas they havent supported or probably care that much otehr than to get some sort of pyramid flowing

They clearly saw all four as a possible basis for progress under certain circumstances, but what was interesting was that all three junior regions seem to have been steered towards Option Z by the blazers involved.

According to a Montrose Roselea poster the north region are apparently being told presumably by the SFA and SJFA at a meeting with the HL to get with the programme on pyramid entry or "graze alone". We have also had the recent BBC website story about the SFA consulting with the relevant bodies on a possible HL:LL boundary shift which is one of the things that would be needed to make Option Z possible. A subsequent tweet from the EoS talked of negotiations and sticking to their position on what should happen rather than refuting the info from the BBC.

The indications are that the SFA rightly or wrongly (please note I am not expressing my personal opinion on that only outlining my understanding of what is happening) still want to get the SJFA into the pyramid intact with all three regions at tier 6 and don't see a region by region approach that dismantles the SJFA or encourages breakaways from it as being the way to go. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Che Dail]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The indications are that the SFA rightly or wrongly (please note I am not expressing my personal opinion on that only outlining my understanding of what is happening) still want to get the SJFA into the pyramid intact with all three regions at tier 6 and don't see a region by region approach that dismantles the SJFA or encourages breakaways from it as being the way to go. 

Probably 'wrongly'.

Really can't see why it can't break down into regions and just feed in now.

All that needs to happen is for the West Region Assoc to affiliate to the pyramid with promotion to the LL and the whole thing can move forward. 

The only barrier to this is the SJFA unfortunately.  

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The west region members appear to have been told that the SPFL support an LL west.

On 17/01/2020 at 15:09, STRUTHERS said:

Point of no return for him, last nights comment was horrific but his behaviour last night outwith that was deplorable, shouting a roll call when people are raising points under AOB then putting the coat on and declaring the meeting f#cking closed was not a good look. Same at last meeting baracking the guy giving the talk on young players mental health. Top table constantly let him carry on regardless, its as if they are terrified from him. No club can support him now shouldn't even be put to a vote but do the management committee have the spine for it?

The West Region might have been told a lot of things on Thursday, but it seems like the guy that ran the show (and was not a part of PWG discussions personally) is no longer there.

Keep in mind what he said about the EoS. Don't know the exact context that slur occurred. However, How serious are you supposed to take a potential off hand comment that the SPFL support Option Z, when it was possibly followed up by the EoS can get f*cked.

Keep in mind the ways that the likes of the SJFA have described their position in the past.

[LongTimeLurker]

28 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Probably 'wrongly'.

Really can't see why it can't break down into regions and just feed in now.

All that needs to happen is for the West Region Assoc to affiliate to the pyramid with promotion to the LL and the whole thing can move forward. 

The only barrier to this is the SJFA unfortunately.  

I was very surprised on the SFA posture when I read the PWG minutes posted on here last season, but there has been a bit of a regime change at the SFA with Rod Petrie and Ian Maxwell replacing Alan McRae of Cove Rangers and Stewart Regan.