Junior football, what is the future?

[glensmad]

Yip by my reckoning, to enter tier 5 you must be licensed, so that's why I don't see most of the West region teams voting for this one, infact I cant think of any team from West Two or West One or the West championship voting for option Z and not many from the premiership would vote for Option Z
'W - the WRSJFA Premiership ONLY is linked into the Pyramid at Tier 6 (i.e. below the Lowland League and equal in status to the EoSL Premier Division and the SoSL) for season 2020-21. The champions of each, IF LICENSED, qualify to play off for promotion to the LL. The WRSJFA Championship, League One and League Two will effectively be placed at Tiers 7 to 8. The ERSJFA and the NRSJFA remain outside the Pyramid.'  
I cant state as official but I'm 99% certain that Polloks stance would be for W as the same choice of Rossvale, two teams in the top division of the West region.    Sounds a bit dodgy to me
 
Did any of the West teams been  allowed to put their vote to a proposal of their choice

I understand that option Z was the preferred option of the West Region management prior to last night's meeting. I don't know how the other options were presented to the clubs last night as I wasn't at the meeting.

[LongTimeLurker]

7 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

...There is also the issue of club licences, or lack of, for the West Region clubs.

That's why it would start in 2021-22. Gives west superleague clubs time to get audited for a licence by February 2021 so they receive their licence at the SFA AGM a few months later in time for the start of the season. Experience in the east has shown this can be done quite quickly by ex-junior clubs of comparable stature to the clubs that would be involved. Beyond that think there could easily be clubs in the LL that would see a split into east and west as the only way that they are likely to be able to stay at tier 5 in the years ahead and it's important to bear in mind that most of the voting power in the SPFL is skewed towards the full-time clubs who won't see this as being anything much to do with them. 

[sweep]

My club Lugar have always been against a Pyramid systen for the juniors . We are not against any team wanting to progress and to get a licence and go into the Lowland league and perhaps better themselves. In reality how many teams from the west have made application for a licence?. Junior football in my opinion is about village against village  or town against town and the beauty of the Scottish cup draw not travelling 100 miles every second week to play a game of football . This will ultimately lead to the demise of clubs as neighbouring clubs go their own ways. Gates will get worse and the interest will wane more. Mibbae we are about to see noTalbot against Cumnock or no Pollock Arthurlie  unthinkable the consequences and last nights meeting told the clubs nothing about the format of the new set up. The clubs voted blind last night .We do not even know if it will be four six or eight clubs that will leave their respective leagues. I said last year at a meeting that the east would oppose  and the east have opposed. This will take years to come to fruition

[parsforlife]

it's important to bear in mind that most of the voting power in the SPFL is skewed towards the full-time clubs who won't see this as being anything much to do with them. 

Your right they won’t see it as anything to do with them, which nearly always results in abstentions. I even half recall there being a clause in the voting structure for matters only relating to leagues 1 and 2. The full time clubs aren’t going to vote through something that doesn’t affect them against the wishes of the part time sides. Any spfl decision will be from the part-time clubs.

[Marshmallo]

18 minutes ago, sweep said:

My club Lugar have always been against a Pyramid systen for the juniors . We are not against any team wanting to progress and to get a licence and go into the Lowland league and perhaps better themselves. In reality how many teams from the west have made application for a licence?. Junior football in my opinion is about village against village  or town against town and the beauty of the Scottish cup draw not travelling 100 miles every second week to play a game of football . This will ultimately lead to the demise of clubs as neighbouring clubs go their own ways. Gates will get worse and the interest will wane more. Mibbae we are about to see noTalbot against Cumnock or no Pollock Arthurlie  unthinkable the consequences and last nights meeting told the clubs nothing about the format of the new set up. The clubs voted blind last night .We do not even know if it will be four six or eight clubs that will leave their respective leagues. I said last year at a meeting that the east would oppose  and the east have opposed. This will take years to come to fruition

What would change for Lugar if the West Region was moved en masse to the pyramid at tier 6/7/8/9?

[LongTimeLurker]

9 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Your right they won’t see it as anything to do with them, which nearly always results in abstentions. I even half recall there being a clause in the voting structure for matters only relating to leagues 1 and 2. The full time clubs aren’t going to vote through something that doesn’t affect them against the wishes of the part time sides. Any spfl decision will be from the part-time clubs.

My understanding is that when there was an attempt to exclude the junior champions from the Scottish Cup a few years back it was the full-time clubs that helped to vote it down at the SFA level in the name of Corinthian fair play. If a convincing case is made for west-east-north at tier 5 being in the best interests of the game in general clubs that are not directly involved are likely to vote based on the merits of the plan.

[glensmad]

20 minutes ago, sweep said:

My club Lugar have always been against a Pyramid systen for the juniors . We are not against any team wanting to progress and to get a licence and go into the Lowland league and perhaps better themselves. In reality how many teams from the west have made application for a licence?. Junior football in my opinion is about village against village  or town against town and the beauty of the Scottish cup draw not travelling 100 miles every second week to play a game of football . This will ultimately lead to the demise of clubs as neighbouring clubs go their own ways. Gates will get worse and the interest will wane more. Mibbae we are about to see noTalbot against Cumnock or no Pollock Arthurlie  unthinkable the consequences and last nights meeting told the clubs nothing about the format of the new set up. The clubs voted blind last night .We do not even know if it will be four six or eight clubs that will leave their respective leagues. I said last year at a meeting that the east would oppose  and the east have opposed. This will take years to come to fruition

I'm confused by this stance, as surely nothing would change for Lugar if the West Region moved into the pyramid ? You'd still be playing the same teams in the same league structure. you would not be adversely affected in any way whatsoever. It seems from your post that your club think everything is going to change and everyone is going to need a licence. That's just simply not the case.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

My understanding is that when there was an attempt to exclude the junior champions from the Scottish Cup a few years back it was the full-time clubs that helped to vote it down at the SFA level in the name of Corinthian fair play. If a convincing case is made for west-east-north at tier 5 being in the best interests of the game in general clubs that are not directly involved are likely to vote based on the merits of the plan.

Are SPFL clubs going to vote for an extra round of playoffs for club 42? Are the prospective lowland league challengers going to vote to make it harder to be promoted with the increased competition? Are BSC Glasgow going to vote for a Lowland West/East when they're stuck in alloa?

The HL/LL boundary is largely being brought up by the Angus aptly clubs and the sjfa.

Who's actually pushing for the 3 way tier 5 that's in the pyramid? Seems just the sjfa and sfa board trying to get the juniors in.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

10 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Are SPFL clubs going to vote for an extra round of playoffs for club 42?...

No reason to think that would be needed based on the rules in place. The SFA's job is to identify a tier 5 champion to playoff against club 42. That means club 42 still plays home and away against one opponent no matter what happens below them. If the EoS three way playoff format was used, identifying the overall tier 5 champion could even still be done in the space of two weekends with each tier 5 league champion playing once home and away. East vs West could be the midweek game for travel reasons. Beyond that what will be interesting to find out is who actually signs off on an alteration of the HL:LL boundary given the club 42 playoff is something that was originally negotiated between the SPFL and the SFA at the time of the SFL merger with the SPL.

Edited January 17, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[gaz5]

Given its their league we are talking about splitting, the LL would need to agree to go LL East and LL West. I suspect the number one negotiating item on their list for any such discussion will be automatic relegation for club 42 with the playoff winner promoted, and a playoff between club 41 and the playoff runner up.

 

I think that would be a fair compromise position and one most, outside of clubs 33 to 42 would unlikely have an issue with.

 

When we get to that position, are SPFL clubs going to back the proposal when 10 current members (potentially 8 or 9 depending on how Cove/EC vote) are so opposed?

 

Are Montrose/Brechin still going to back boundary changes when part of that deal means they don't get a playoff escape route for finishing bottom?

 

And therin lies the problem with all of this talk around changing structures and rules. The knock on effects are all cross decision making power boundaries and the SFA don't seem able to bring all the organisations together.

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

No reason to think that would be needed based on the rules in place. The SFA's job is to identify a tier 5 champion to playoff against club 42. That means club 42 still plays home and away against one opponent no matter what happens below them. If the EoS three way playoff format was used, identifying the overall tier 5 champion could even still be done in the space of two weekends with each tier 5 league champion playing once home and away. East vs West could be the midweek game for travel reasons. Beyond that what will be interesting to find out is who actually signs off on an alteration of the HL:LL boundary given the club 42 playoff is something that was originally negotiated between the SPFL and the SFA at the time of the SFL merger with the SPL.

So we are talking about making it even harder for the Lowland League to get promoted. Even harder for relegated SPFL clubs to get back. All for who's benefit exactly, juniors.

Seems like a real vote winner.

[PastyMan]

20 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

Given its their league we are talking about splitting, the LL would need to agree to go LL East and LL West. I suspect the number one negotiating item on their list for any such discussion will be automatic relegation for club 42 with the playoff winner promoted, and a playoff between club 41 and the playoff runner up.

 

I think that would be a fair compromise position and one most, outside of clubs 33 to 42 would unlikely have an issue with.

 

When we get to that position, are SPFL clubs going to back the proposal when 10 current members (potentially 8 or 9 depending on how Cove/EC vote) are so opposed?

 

Are Montrose/Brechin still going to back boundary changes when part of that deal means they don't get a playoff escape route for finishing bottom?

 

And therin lies the problem with all of this talk around changing structures and rules. The knock on effects are all cross decision making power boundaries and the SFA don't seem able to bring all the organisations together.

 

 

Thanks Gaz, saved me writing something similar.

What this situation is crying out for is a sensible strategic joined up solution and not more of these piecemeal proposals. I can't see the leadership at a national level to provide that though.

[ian44wood]

This is a proposal only by the juniors

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, sweep said:

My club Lugar have always been against a Pyramid systen for the juniors . We are not against any team wanting to progress and to get a licence and go into the Lowland league and perhaps better themselves. In reality how many teams from the west have made application for a licence?. Junior football in my opinion is about village against village  or town against town and the beauty of the Scottish cup draw not travelling 100 miles every second week to play a game of football . This will ultimately lead to the demise of clubs as neighbouring clubs go their own ways. Gates will get worse and the interest will wane more. Mibbae we are about to see noTalbot against Cumnock or no Pollock Arthurlie  unthinkable the consequences and last nights meeting told the clubs nothing about the format of the new set up. The clubs voted blind last night .We do not even know if it will be four six or eight clubs that will leave their respective leagues. I said last year at a meeting that the east would oppose  and the east have opposed. This will take years to come to fruition

You weren't supposed to be voting on anything, these are only suggestions.  Were you shown the slides as to how each format worked?  The West Regions were supposed to be gathering opinions for each of the four options, not having a vote to decide which one was best, or just blindly backing the option the Board wanted because they have done a deal to stick by the East Region.

This post is the perfect illustration of how some Junior clubs can be easily lead/fooled into believing the Pyramid is bad.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Burnie_man

[auldashy21]

I honestly thought last nights meeting was a bit of a waste of time. Voting blind on a proposal that seemed clear to me that the management committee had already made their mind up on.

The vote was then a bit of a shambles with no 'show of hands' rather a silence, suggesting to me that everyone in the meeting was either shell shocked at the lack of information, didn't really care, or were just plain bored. 

All the proposals brought forward will have no bearing on 90% of the clubs in our set up, however I think a meeting when they have more information would have been a better idea.

As for the comment made, my club have penned a letter to be sent to the West Region regarding it.

[Burnie_man]

35 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

Given its their league we are talking about splitting, the LL would need to agree to go LL East and LL West. I suspect the number one negotiating item on their list for any such discussion will be automatic relegation for club 42 with the playoff winner promoted, and a playoff between club 41 and the playoff runner up.

I think that would be a fair compromise position and one most, outside of clubs 33 to 42 would unlikely have an issue with.

When we get to that position, are SPFL clubs going to back the proposal when 10 current members (potentially 8 or 9 depending on how Cove/EC vote) are so opposed?

Are Montrose/Brechin still going to back boundary changes when part of that deal means they don't get a playoff escape route for finishing bottom?

And therin lies the problem with all of this talk around changing structures and rules. The knock on effects are all cross decision making power boundaries and the SFA don't seem able to bring all the organisations together.

Spot on.

There is a debate to be had on splitting the Lowland League.  that debate happens once we have a completed Pyramid at tier 6 ie getting a West league of some sort into the Pyramid.

That should be the sole focus.

Splitting the LL at this juncture is fantasy.  As you say, the LL would rightly use it as leverage to extract more concessions from the SPFL., and they need to time it right.  No chance the right time if the next few seasons.

Get the west in, and work from there.  However, it seems the WRJFA are intent on not joining anytime soon.

[Arthurlie1981]

After last nights meeting it’s time for clubs who want to progress to split away from the juniors. I am not surprised by last nights vote as these things are always set up in advance with the management committee (certain people at least) leaning on friends at other clubs to vote their way. It’s a decision for the clubs not the west region management committee who should have remained neutral in this and done what the clubs decided.

As for the comment I hope my club share the same sentiments as others in writing to the SJFA/SFA to investigate this incident.

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

After last nights meeting it’s time for clubs who want to progress to split away from the juniors. I am not surprised by last nights vote as these things are always set up in advance with the management committee (certain people at least) leaning on friends at other clubs to vote their way. It’s a decision for the clubs not the west region management committee who should have remained neutral in this and done what the clubs decided.

As for the comment I hope my club share the same sentiments as others in writing to the SJFA/SFA to investigate this incident.

Any truth in the rumour that the WRJFA done a deal with the ERJFA to stick together in order to help get the ERJFA into the Pyramid?  Might explain why the ERJFA told their clubs before Xmas that there is a good chance they will be in at tier 6.  This also of course prolongs a certain persons position.

If the WRJFA stick to this at PWG and refuse all other options, then no West clubs in the Pyramid next season, and I'd be surprised if there were any the following.

[GNU_Linux]

Time to re-enact the intermediate dispute of 1927

[Jack Burton]

Given its their league we are talking about splitting, the LL would need to agree to go LL East and LL West. I suspect the number one negotiating item on their list for any such discussion will be automatic relegation for club 42 with the playoff winner promoted, and a playoff between club 41 and the playoff runner up.
 
I think that would be a fair compromise position and one most, outside of clubs 33 to 42 would unlikely have an issue with.
 
When we get to that position, are SPFL clubs going to back the proposal when 10 current members (potentially 8 or 9 depending on how Cove/EC vote) are so opposed?
 
Are Montrose/Brechin still going to back boundary changes when part of that deal means they don't get a playoff escape route for finishing bottom?
 
And therin lies the problem with all of this talk around changing structures and rules. The knock on effects are all cross decision making power boundaries and the SFA don't seem able to bring all the organisations together.
 
 

I believe the SPFL only wanted one feeder league at tier 5 and reluctantly agreed to two. I can't see there being much enthusiasm to increase it to 3 and open the relegation places. All the part time clubs will oppose it not just those in SPFL2.

The LL has been growing in strength the last few years and splitting it in 2 will just dilute the quality. Scotland isn't a big country and having the current LL at tier 5 seems right to me with East and west under that.

I'm really not surprised at the outcome of the meeting. We'll be discussing the same topic for years unless some of the West teams decide to break away like what happened in the east.