Junior football, what is the future?

[superbigal]

Tayport certainly have a few young Lads signed that also play for Riverside Tayport 19s in the Dundee and District Youth League on a Sunday.

That team play out of Dundee University parks and not at Tayport. The Tayport link being fairly recent.

3 of them featured on Saturday and all did rather well in a 5-0 victory.

I imagine East Craigie, Forfar West End, Kirrie Thistle, Dundee North End and Forfar Albion are all using this as an option to beef up your pool.

All of those team names are certainly being used in the league (Sort of link below)

http://www.ddyfa.co.uk/Divisions

 

[BTID]

6 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Just on 'dual contracts' - it's a delayed transfer - a loan - with a fancy unofficial name. And they're as useful as a chocolate teapot from 21s to Junior because they both play saturdays. The 19s in Glasgow at least play sundays - but how many 18 year olds are going to cut it at the better clubs at that age? They seem to just sit on the bench picking splinters out their rear end when numbers are low. A few from Lok's 19s have established themselves - Tony Coutts and Sena Niang got signed us, as did Mikey McWilliams but he has been loaned out to other Junior clubs for almost his entire time since. Sena since moved on to the SPFL though so a bit of an unusual one.

See to be fair, my team was up against your 19s that year they beat us to the league on the last day. The coaches there actually had development at heart and built something that would bring players through.

Also regarding age issue, this season Ben Cameron and Adam Smith are both 17 - Adam started vs Annbank and Ben had a run of 3 games until his controversial red at the weekend. If you believe in youth it can happen they are the only two from our squad to start both are younger.
 

I truly believe the lack of a long term vision from west junior clubs to bring their youth players through is the reason though. It’s good enough at Hamilton and other SPL clubs to throw in 16/17 year olds never mind 18/19. I wonder if this will even be in discussions coming up, or is it looking at the short term again.
 

A change of culture is needed and it requires all clubs to get their heads together and sort out a development league that will grow the game as it’s stuck in the mud. If we don’t the pool to pick from becomes less and less as we lose players to other life choices. 
 

As you say, Pollok, Rutherglen, Gartcairn, Vale of Leven, Arthurlie, Johnstone Burgh etc all have 21s how can that pathway work with both being Saturday afternoon?

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by BTID

[cmontheloknow]

Regarding the 'how young's too young?' question I think you have to factor in that boys in the top flight are going to be a higher calibre than ones at U19 level in SYFA. Ben Cameron  that you mention has come through the SPFL Pro Youth ranks has he not? Most in SYFA at 19s don't have that background and aren't of that calibre.

Youth football is too fragmented and I am not sold on the idea a coach follows a team up through the age categories. Lok have 2 21s this year because of that. It should be (IMO) one team made up of the best ones. Or is participation more important... ?

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Pardon my ignorance but do junior clubs get anything out of youth teams in regards to their first team all that often? I understand there's a social/community aspect to the whole thing; especially in towns where the only club is  a junior club and that's a different argument entirely. As pointed out above, tho, anyone with the right amount of skill will probably be at a senior club's youth team (with the odd exception). Whereas senior teams can, conceivably, make a profit on players coming through and being sold I can't think of any great sums that have went back down to the juniors for players. Maybe young players coming through a youth set up will take a lesser wage that players coming down from above but how many junior clubs pay the sort of wages that are evened out but a youth set up?

[Bestsinceslicebread]

7 hours ago, BTID said:

See to be fair, my team was up against your 19s that year they beat us to the league on the last day. The coaches there actually had development at heart and built something that would bring players through.

Also regarding age issue, this season Ben Cameron and Adam Smith are both 17 - Adam started vs Annbank and Ben had a run of 3 games until his controversial red at the weekend. If you believe in youth it can happen they are the only two from our squad to start both are younger.
 

I truly believe the lack of a long term vision from west junior clubs to bring their youth players through is the reason though. It’s good enough at Hamilton and other SPL clubs to throw in 16/17 year olds never mind 18/19. I wonder if this will even be in discussions coming up, or is it looking at the short term again.
 

A change of culture is needed and it requires all clubs to get their heads together and sort out a development league that will grow the game as it’s stuck in the mud. If we don’t the pool to pick from becomes less and less as we lose players to other life choices. 
 

As you say, Pollok, Rutherglen, Gartcairn, Vale of Leven, Arthurlie, Johnstone Burgh etc all have 21s how can that pathway work with both being Saturday afternoon?

 

The year we won the league, (Pollok U19s), on the final day of the season against Clydebank our u19s moved on. 1 to Partick Thistle, 5 to Pollok Juniors, 5 to BSC Glasgow, 1 to Livingston and 1 to Stirling Albion, 1 to Larkhall juniors and 1 to Johnston burgh juniors and others had trials at Stirling Albion and Clyde I think, so most lads never made the U21 level.  To be fair Adam was a Rossvale youth player and came to watch us, (Clydebank U19s),  at the Blantyre tournament and it was there that he decided he wanted to be a part of Clydebank U19s due to the way we played football.  Unfortunately, or fortunately lol, myself and the other two coaches left Clydebank and the team were taken over by the new coaches. Ben Cameron was also training with us for a few months as he was a professional player with St Mirren and couldn't play for us but stayed and got clearance to play this year so the new coaches have taken over a brilliant team and added to it and play their own style of football

100% agree the problem you state is correct, too many junior teams don't bother or no vision on the youth and in a day where if you don't have money to buy you need to have youth coming through, many will find it hard in the future.   

[Bestsinceslicebread]

4 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Regarding the 'how young's too young?' question I think you have to factor in that boys in the top flight are going to be a higher calibre than ones at U19 level in SYFA. Ben Cameron  that you mention has come through the SPFL Pro Youth ranks has he not? Most in SYFA at 19s don't have that background and aren't of that calibre.

Youth football is too fragmented and I am not sold on the idea a coach follows a team up through the age categories. Lok have 2 21s this year because of that. It should be (IMO) one team made up of the best ones. Or is participation more important... ?

its hard to gel production academy and community academy but it can be done. Lots of boys go to pro youth at 12, 13 etc.. but the lads usually about U17s, U19s either don't have all the attributes or been a bit of bad luck, its really up to the coaches to make them excel.
I wouldn't say they arnt up to calibre, its in many of them, just need the right influence and development, seen and done it many times.
last year our Clydebank U19s, we played Airdire pro youth, 4.3 defeat when should have won, Partick Thistle Pro youth 1.1, Clyde pro youth 2.2 and Motherwell pro youth 2.2 and played Celtic first team ladies and won.  if youth academy teams are run right, with the right kind of vision and coaches whose main focus is on development then there are an abundance of lads who can be comes good enough as late developers for either junior or senior.

and I am not sold on the idea a coach follows a team up through the age categories, 100% agree due to the facts but this is a hard one, usually as coaches start with a team, (their son usually the reason) but as they grow older, for example, when  a team goes from 13 to U14 its not just the players learning a higher level but the coaches so we adopted coaches from other ages to help younger coaches and younger players coming to older sessions for harder learning training. Did this at Pollok and at Clydebank
The success we have had at Pollok and at Clydebank is because the youth coaches stepped aside and let more experienced coaches come in and the benefit was huge

[Arthurlie1981]

See to be fair, my team was up against your 19s that year they beat us to the league on the last day. The coaches there actually had development at heart and built something that would bring players through.
Also regarding age issue, this season Ben Cameron and Adam Smith are both 17 - Adam started vs Annbank and Ben had a run of 3 games until his controversial red at the weekend. If you believe in youth it can happen they are the only two from our squad to start both are younger.
 
I truly believe the lack of a long term vision from west junior clubs to bring their youth players through is the reason though. It’s good enough at Hamilton and other SPL clubs to throw in 16/17 year olds never mind 18/19. I wonder if this will even be in discussions coming up, or is it looking at the short term again.
 
A change of culture is needed and it requires all clubs to get their heads together and sort out a development league that will grow the game as it’s stuck in the mud. If we don’t the pool to pick from becomes less and less as we lose players to other life choices. 
 
As you say, Pollok, Rutherglen, Gartcairn, Vale of Leven, Arthurlie, Johnstone Burgh etc all have 21s how can that pathway work with both being Saturday afternoon?
 

A development league was discussed about 5 years ago and there was little or no interest. If I remember only 2 or 3 clubs stated they were interested.

[BTID]

4 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Regarding the 'how young's too young?' question I think you have to factor in that boys in the top flight are going to be a higher calibre than ones at U19 level in SYFA. Ben Cameron  that you mention has come through the SPFL Pro Youth ranks has he not? Most in SYFA at 19s don't have that background and aren't of that calibre.

Youth football is too fragmented and I am not sold on the idea a coach follows a team up through the age categories. Lok have 2 21s this year because of that. It should be (IMO) one team made up of the best ones. Or is participation more important... ?

My own opinion is at the age of 16 and up if your still playing you probably take your football reasonably seriously. Hence the reason why so many fold, because they hang on and realise they can’t be bothered playing anymore and take up other interests. 
 

My concern selfishly for Clydebank is I see a gap in the market for semi pro clubs to have a serious setup. Around our area there’s no youth setup/development west of us all the way past Oban. In Glasgow area, Celtic Rangers, Thistle, St Mirren elite clubs. That’s about 65 players in a area probably close to 500,000 people. 
 

We’ve just lost ANOTHER club tonight. 6 clubs gone already it’s a total shambles. We need the West junior clubs to knock heads together and get a serious setup for committed players. Proper coaching, proper home venue. If the east can do it why is the west lagging behind again. it makes no sense why we are allowing ourselves to fall behind the east. 
 

Every year that goes by is another the east continues to be progressive whilst we lag.

[BTID]

4 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Regarding the 'how young's too young?' question I think you have to factor in that boys in the top flight are going to be a higher calibre than ones at U19 level in SYFA. Ben Cameron  that you mention has come through the SPFL Pro Youth ranks has he not? Most in SYFA at 19s don't have that background and aren't of that calibre.

Youth football is too fragmented and I am not sold on the idea a coach follows a team up through the age categories. Lok have 2 21s this year because of that. It should be (IMO) one team made up of the best ones. Or is participation more important... ?

And yes, you are right in that Ben has been at a pro level.

But we had two lads at U19 who earned contracts and are still in squad. Neither came from pro level. It can be done - if the environment is right.

But we have no vision. Most of the best teams at 21s have no real link to a junior club. For me that’s a real issue and is why 21s and 19s is falling apart. Most young lads just wont turn up and participate on a council grass bog and put nets up. The games changing and we have to change with it.

[Guest]

Youth set up depend on a number if factors.

For example:
If a 1st team manager would play young players and work with them to improve them.
If the club have someone with oversight of the football pathway.
If youth coaches are in place to improve players or gather medals and badges.
If the club has a structure and long term goal.

There is a whole host more but I do agree, coaches should remain at an age group and players move up and through.

In reality by keeping lads with the same coach, with the same style and the same methods means they are never exposed to new ideas and approaches. They never have a chance to develop a broader understanding of the game and in most cases, particularly at boys club level, get to a first team and have no idea what to do because they have a different coach asking them to do things differently. (not the players fault, but more an issue within how we structure our game)

[BTID]

4 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Youth set up depend on a number if factors.

For example:
If a 1st team manager would play young players and work with them to improve them.
If the club have someone with oversight of the football pathway.
If youth coaches are in place to improve players or gather medals and badges.
If the club has a structure and long term goal.

There is a whole host more but I do agree, coaches should remain at an age group and players move up and through.

In reality by keeping lads with the same coach, with the same style and the same methods means they are never exposed to new ideas and approaches. They never have a chance to develop a broader understanding of the game and in most cases, particularly at boys club level, get to a first team and have no idea what to do because they have a different coach asking them to do things differently. (not the players fault, but more an issue within how we structure our game)

Agreed. So as pointed out by Arthurlie, why was there little interest from west teams to start a development league? We have 60 odd clubs. There must be clubs out there that have ambition and vision?

[wow-wee]

Got told tonight that the West region have voted for option z as their preferred choice for the pyramid. Also their was some controversy when a racist remark was used to describe the eosl on the way they go about their business.

[parkcircus]

Pretty dodgy statement given that fact they were handing out “Show racism the red card” letters.

I actually can’t believe I heard that tonight coming from the top table

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Lol wtf?

[Burnie_man]

They are supposed to provide feedback on all 4 options.  Trumpeting LL West/East means no Pyramid next season, or probably any season if they stick to it and don't consider moving in on their own.

Racist remark towards EoS?

[wow-wee]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

They are supposed to provide feedback on all 4 options.  Trumpeting LL West/East means no Pyramid next season, or probably any season if they stick to it and don't consider moving in on their own.

Racist remark towards EoS?

The ( N) word was used to describe the people who run the eosl.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, wow-wee said:

The ( N) word was used to describe the people who run the eosl.

What

[Sunrise]

“With regards to the pyramid, the EoS is currently the n****r in the woodpile”

 

[wow-wee]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

What

That's what I was told it was said by the general secretary still trying to get more info on it.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Sunrise said:

“The EoS is currently the n****r in the woodpile”

Words fail..........seriously outrageous if true.

Moving beyond that, if they believe that then why don't they walk through the open gate of the WRJFA moving into the Pyramid next season rather than tie themselves into knots backing something to its unlikely to be delivered? The EoS or LL do not oppose it.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Burnie_man