Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

The detrimental effect is on grassroots football. common sense tells everyone that there is a growth in U20s football

As far as im aware there was a u21 league a few years ago, as there was a challenge from teams in the Scottish at U21s and at u19s n the east then again, agreeing with you it was in decline as has the U21 in the West in decline.  There are less U19s teams participating in the east as it was two years ago.  A development league is a league for players to be development in order to get them to the first team in a level that the first team will deem good enough.  Average boys who play football, who might not be good enough wont be with these teams so they will be left in the lurch if there are less teams going about at grassroots once these boys are at U19s and u21s, thus less boys involved in football, that is what is deemed by detrimental effect.
You say, Its breathed life into the top end of youth football and yeah everyone agrees with this but has it shafted the other end.  If the west region joins the  pyramid ranks then it will have a detrimental effect on youth football at grassroots at U19s and u21s, the academies should be able to cope but some stand alone teams wont as some of their players might want to go to the u19s teams who are part of academies or first teams.

The youth post was added into to let people know that there will be changes at youth level, grassroots etc..   its not intended to be a big section on this thread, it was only a point

Not exactly sure as to your point to be honest, but it's off topic so I'll leave it there.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

23 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Not exactly sure as to your point to be honest, but it's off topic so I'll leave it there.

I don't mean to be presumptuous or derogatory but if your not involved in youth football, with the workings of it and how most teams/leagues operate etc.. then I would not expect you to fully understand the point even though I have tired to simplify it, (which looking back, I didn't do too well explaining it, my bag).

As stated earlier, yes there are some academies arranging / preparing for u20 development teams if their first team/junior team joins the West. Some West junior teams I know for a fact haven't done anything in regards to youth teams or a potential U20 team even though most wont be buying teams so youth is really the way to go.

Totally agree any in-depth point of this belongs on the youth section where there are a few post already about his and include this.

But as this thread is about peoples views of junior teams joining the Pyramid, we will leave it at that as its more important for the junior teams to be sorted and then after deal with their youth section, finance, floodlights etc....

Again my view, I'd love to see all junior teams in the pyramid, just my thoughts

[Burnie_man]

I don't mean to be presumptuous or derogatory but if your not involved in youth football, with the workings of it and how most teams/leagues operate etc.. then I would not expect you to fully understand the point even though I have tired to simplify it, (which looking back, I didn't do too well explaining it, my bag).

As stated earlier, yes there are some academies arranging / preparing for u20 development teams if their first team/junior team joins the West. Some West junior teams I know for a fact haven't done anything in regards to youth teams or a potential U20 team even though most wont be buying teams so youth is really the way to go.
Totally agree any in-depth point of this belongs on the youth section where there are a few post already about his and include this.

But as this thread is about peoples views of junior teams joining the Pyramid, we will leave it at that as its more important for the junior teams to be sorted and then after deal with their youth section, finance, floodlights etc....

Again my view, I'd love to see all junior teams in the pyramid, just my thoughts

I've been involved enough to understand how youth football operates thanks. My team happens to have been operating at most levels of it for many years.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

7 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I don't mean to be presumptuous or derogatory but if your not involved in youth football, with the workings of it and how most teams/leagues operate etc.. then I would not expect you to fully understand the point even though I have tired to simplify it, (which looking back, I didn't do too well explaining it, my bag).

As stated earlier, yes there are some academies arranging / preparing for u20 development teams if their first team/junior team joins the West. Some West junior teams I know for a fact haven't done anything in regards to youth teams or a potential U20 team even though most wont be buying teams so youth is really the way to go.
Totally agree any in-depth point of this belongs on the youth section where there are a few post already about his and include this.

But as this thread is about peoples views of junior teams joining the Pyramid, we will leave it at that as its more important for the junior teams to be sorted and then after deal with their youth section, finance, floodlights etc....

Again my view, I'd love to see all junior teams in the pyramid, just my thoughts

I've been involved enough to understand how youth football operates thanks. My team happens to have been operating at most levels of it for many years.

and yet you do not understand the detrimental effect on grassroots football
I think your reply alone gives me an understanding

[geo87]

BurnieMan I agree with most of your views and what you say on here, but your coming accross as an arrogant git on this one.

I (and am sure most) are completely getting the point slicedbread is making

[Burnie_man]

and yet you do not understand the detrimental effect on grassroots football
I think your reply alone gives me an understanding

I'm not sure you understand it either as I have no idea what is supposed to be detrimental, then you accuse me of not knowing anything!

[Burnie_man]

BurnieMan I agree with most of your views and what you say on here, but your coming accross as an arrogant git on this one.

 

I (and am sure most) are completely getting the point slicedbread is making

 

 

In what way? I'm asking the guy to spell out what is detrimental about more clubs starting U20 sides. He then presumes I have no understanding of youth football which is completely wrong!

 

I'm not the one being arrogant here!

 

If you understand his point them maybe help me out here. Then again, we're way off topic so maybe better to leave it.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

In what way? I'm asking the guy to spell out what is detrimental about more clubs starting U20 sides. He then presumes I have no understanding of youth football which is completely wrong!

 

I'm not the one being arrogant here!

 

If you understand his point them maybe help me out here. Then again, we're way off topic so maybe better to leave it.

 

Looking at the u21s WOSYFL tables there's a mix of some club names I'd recognize as junior/amateur and some I dont recognize at all so presumably they're just youth clubs.

Say they've got u19 teams as well there's maybe 40 odd players 22yrs or younger playing organised football. After youth football they'd maybe move onto amateur or semi-professional at a certain level.

Say the juniors sign up for u20s development lowland league. They might not run a u19s and can also use 2 over age players. So these clubs wouldn't carry the same number of players.

What's left of the WoSYFL might struggle to operate and see clubs fold. The quality would also dip as you aren't playing the same mix of players.

That's my take on what's meant.

 

[Burnie_man]

Looking at the u21s WOSYFL tables there's a mix of some club names I'd recognize as junior/amateur and some I dont recognize at all so presumably they're just youth clubs. Say they've got u19 teams as well there's maybe 40 odd players 22yrs or younger playing organised football. After youth football they'd maybe move onto amateur or semi-professional at a certain level. Say the juniors sign up for u20s development lowland league. They might not run a u19s and can also use 2 over age players. So these clubs wouldn't carry the same number of players.

What's left of the WoSYFL might struggle to operate and see clubs fold. The quality would also dip as you aren't playing the same mix of players.

That's my take on what's meant.

 

 

 

Thanks, I did acknowledge above that the impact of an U20 league in the west may have a negative impact on their existing U21 set-up. That said, my understanding is that it's already in a bit of a decline. The U20's in the east has been a boon as far as I can see, providing a relatively stable environment at that level, and a step up in standard from U17/U19. The east has never really had a wide scale U21 set-up and the WLYFA didn't even run an U21 league, they top out at U19.

 

If senior non league clubs can provide a stable environment for U20 football - and not all clubs choose to go down that route anyway - then that has to be a benefit, but perhaps there should also be an opening for established youth clubs to enter U20 teams as well if they want. For example, in West Lothian, Murieston United from Livingston.

 

Remember, most clubs in the LL U20 Development League have a mix of anything from 16-20 year olds, all of whom are eligible to play senior. Most of our U20 squad were from last seasons U19, some have been released from SPFL academies, some from other clubs too old for U19, and we also have a couple on loan from Livingston FC. I expect next season we'll have an influx from our U19's from this year. Probably 3 or 4 U20's have already played EoS Premier this season. It's great for smaller clubs like us.

 

 

 

 

[parsforlife]

Unaffiliated youth football is dying. That might frustrate traditionalists but I doubt it will actually result in less players playing.

What we are seeing is youth clubs wanting to keep players on and playing adult football. I would think anyone leaving the game due to potential lost opportunity will be gained from single registration and clear pathway. How many were we losing cos after 19s/21s was there no team to play for? How many were getting lost cos they’d step up to senior football play a few games a lose their spot when others get fit and then not be able to drop back down without a 28 day delay?

Clubs either need to provide an adult pathway or link up with an already established senior team.

[Burnie_man]

Unaffiliated youth football is dying. That might frustrate traditionalists but I doubt it will actually result in less players playing.

What we are seeing is youth clubs wanting to keep players on and playing adult football. I would think anyone leaving the game due to potential lost opportunity will be gained from single registration and clear pathway. How many were we losing cos after 19s/21s was there no team to play for? How many were getting lost cos they’d step up to senior football play a few games a lose their spot when others get fit and then not be able to drop back down without a 28 day delay?

Clubs either need to provide an adult pathway or link up with an already established senior team.

We can play our U17/19's in our U20's as trialists if needs be, same with the seniors. However as far as I am aware, there still isn't any agreement between SYFA and EoS regarding dual registrations.

For small and middling clubs, U20 is a big help to the senior team as a defecto reserve team. However I can understand why for the likes of Linlithgow it might not be seen as beneficial. It doesnt come without additional expense.

Would Talbot and other big west clubs want to run with an U20 if given the chance?

[gaz5]

Thanks, I did acknowledge above that the impact of an U20 league in the west may have a negative impact on their existing U21 set-up. That said, my understanding is that it's already in a bit of a decline. The U20's in the east has been a boon as far as I can see, providing a relatively stable environment at that level, and a step up in standard from U17/U19. The east has never really had a wide scale U21 set-up and the WLYFA didn't even run an U21 league, they top out at U19. 
If senior non league clubs can provide a stable environment for U20 football - and not all clubs choose to go down that route anyway - then that has to be a benefit, but perhaps there should also be an opening for established youth clubs to enter U20 teams as well if they want. For example, in West Lothian, Murieston United from Livingston.
 
Remember, most clubs in the LL U20 Development League have a mix of anything from 16-20 year olds, all of whom are eligible to play senior. Most of our U20 squad were from last seasons U19, some have been released from SPFL academies, some from other clubs too old for U19, and we also have a couple on loan from Livingston FC. I expect next season we'll have an influx from our U19's from this year. Probably 3 or 4 U20's have already played EoS Premier this season. It's great for smaller clubs like us.
 
 
 
 

Not arguing one way or the other, but as an ex West region junior team who moved to EoS, we are possibly the only example to look at currently with regards the problem being discussed.

We currently run both an Under 20's in the EoS Dev league and an Under 19's in the WoSYFA.

Both teams have provided players for the senior team this season in competitive games, the 20's as signed players the 19's as trialists.

We've had 19's playing games for the 20's and for the Scottish youth cup (under 18) a mix of both teams eligible players.

Obviously can't say what the future holds across the league, but given our unique position on both sides of the East/West divide which is the point being discussed, worth pointing out how it works for us currently.

[FairWeatherFan]

 

34 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Thanks, I did acknowledge above that the impact of an U20 league in the west may have a negative impact on their existing U21 set-up. That said, my understanding is that it's already in a bit of a decline. The U20's in the east has been a boon as far as I can see, providing a relatively stable environment at that level, and a step up in standard from U17/U19. The east has never really had a wide scale U21 set-up and the WLYFA didn't even run an U21 league, they top out at U19.

 

If senior non league clubs can provide a stable environment for U20 football - and not all clubs choose to go down that route anyway - then that has to be a benefit, but perhaps there should also be an opening for established youth clubs to enter U20 teams as well if they want. For example, in West Lothian, Murieston United from Livingston.

 

Remember, most clubs in the LL U20 Development League have a mix of anything from 16-20 year olds, all of whom are eligible to play senior. Most of our U20 squad were from last seasons U19, some have been released from SPFL academies, some from other clubs too old for U19, and we also have a couple on loan from Livingston FC. I expect next season we'll have an influx from our U19's from this year. Probably 3 or 4 U20's have already played EoS Premier this season. It's great for smaller clubs like us.

Looking at the tables some of the teams stand out as potential competing teams that couldn't all have a complete player pathway. Pollok Juveniles v. Pollok FC and Barrhead YFC v Arthurlie Juniors.

Maybe that's where the worry lies in the teams that don't have a senior tie up getting locked out of any restructuring. I know in the LL Development thread there was speculation over the LL asking to set up u18 and u16s leagues

[Burnie_man]

Not arguing one way or the other, but as an ex West region junior team who moved to EoS, we are possibly the only example to look at currently with regards the problem being discussed.

We currently run both an Under 20's in the EoS Dev league and an Under 19's in the WoSYFA.

Both teams have provided players for the senior team this season in competitive games, the 20's as signed players the 19's as trialists.

We've had 19's playing games for the 20's and for the Scottish youth cup (under 18) a mix of both teams eligible players.

Obviously can't say what the future holds across the league, but given our unique position on both sides of the East/West divide which is the point being discussed, worth pointing out how it works for us currently.

Worth pointing out as well that our teams upto and inc U19 are run by B.U. Community Sports Club and affiliated to WLYFA, whilst the senior club directly fund and run the U20's.

I know there's different ways of doing it (Dunipace are a straight top down structure, one club and committee?).

An agreement between SYFA and EoS/LL would help.

[FairWeatherFan]

The important thing like bestsinceslicedbread pointed out is get the juniors in the pyramid.

Youth level is going to be ever changing right now. It's not like the LL u20 model is set in stone. The two conference set up was bursting at the seams this season already.

[Burnie_man]

The important thing like bestsinceslicedbread pointed out is get the juniors in the pyramid.
Youth level is going to be ever changing right now. It's not like the LL u20 model is set in stone. The two conference set up was bursting at the seams this season already.

Once the west come in, I guess there's scope for a west conference if they start wanting to enter u20 teams.

I can't see the conference system changing, it works well at that level, although it could become more regionalised.

[Ginaro]

On 27/12/2019 at 02:37, Robert James said:

NCL Golspie Sutherland failed to get council permission to install lights, following objections from local residents.

FYI, Golspie were granted planning permission to install lights last month: https://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=PYHD7AIHFZ100

[Ray Patterson]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

FYI, Golspie were granted planning permission to install lights last month: https://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=PYHD7AIHFZ100

I wonder if with the installation of floodlights Golspie maybe forced into the HL, or certainly applying to join the HL

[cmontheloknow]

10 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Looking at the tables some of the teams stand out as potential competing teams that couldn't all have a complete player pathway. Pollok Juveniles v. Pollok FC and Barrhead YFC v Arthurlie Juniors.

Maybe that's where the worry lies in the teams that don't have a senior tie up getting locked out of any restructuring. I know in the LL Development thread there was speculation over the LL asking to set up u18 and u16s leagues

The two Polloks are effectively the same team (afaik). One of the biggest issues I see in Scottish youth football is the idea that a coach starts with say an u11s and follows them all the way up. It is so disjointed. Lok have the two in 21s because one lot were 1999s ran by one coach and another were 2000s ran by another that came up from the 19s this year. Or loosely along those lines. BTSSB is the expert on this so can correct any errors there!

Edited December 29, 2019 by cmontheloknow

[BTID]

Some good posts in here.

The issue with West 21s is its big teams and the folks that run them are happy playing Saturday afternoon and have little or no connection with junior sides. Even if there is a loose affiliation, I can’t really see how the pathway works during the season. 

I was with 21s for a year and am back at 19s and to be honest neither is at the standard it needs to be at. I’m hoping part of the pyramid switch would see a u20 west league develop as this would create a bit of professionalism within the 16-20 bracket which is badly needed.

 

Our league isn’t even into the new year and 5 clubs have folded. Lack of commitment/drop out and boys working weekends seems to be the biggest factors these days. So to have a proper fri night setup would be great, Creates an environment that retains and grows interest. 
 

Spoke to Camelon Juniors u20 who we play on fri, pitch costs was a huge issue through here when attempting a fri night last last year. £140 is eye watering and the cost to west clubs would have to be looked at. As also mentioned, Talbot don’t have any sort of youth pathway so unsure all clubs would get involved but think there are progressive community clubs out there to get it started for next season.