Junior football, what is the future?

[Tutankhamen]

1 hour ago, glensmad said:

Absolutely, this truth needs repeating as many times as is needed until it sinks in.

I keep hearing the phrase, something like "this pyramid thing is going to cost a fortune".

No it is not. It's not going to cost you a penny more.

I repeat again, a club licence is only going to be required for access to tier 5. That means that a club will only need a licence if they are good enough to win what is currently the West Region Premiership. To do that, and beat off the challenge from the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Kilwinning Rangers, Pollok etc, then you'll need to have some decent form of financial backing anyway. You can't win that league paying chocolate buttons.

For the other clubs in the West, absolutely nothing would change, other than you can now market your club as "playing in tier X of the Scottish pyramid". You'll still be playing the same teams, in the same league structure, at the same grounds.

There is absolutely nothing to fear about joining the pyramid for the West teams, but plenty to gain in terms of marketing opportunities.

Don't be fooled by the (perhaps deliberate) misinformation which is circulating. Do your own research. You'll find out there is absolutely nothing to lose.

Long term it will benefit as Juniors clubs find the level needed to suit them. It ain't the Junior clubs that need to worry but certain SFL teams going the other way. Half the present Senior League teams are open to seeing a lot lower than the Lowland League. More than East Stirlingshire and Berwick Rangers will be coming down the way.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Tutankhamen

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

It ain't the Junior clubs that need to worry but certain SFL going the other way. Half the present Seniot League teams are open to seeing a lot lower than the Lowland League. More than East Stirlingshire and Berwick Rangers will be coming down the way.

That part is certainly true. East Stirlingshire went 2nd, 4th and 6th and needed a sugar daddy. Berwick are sitting 12th and there have been posters that would happily see an investor come in to take over the club.

You've now got the likes of Brechin City getting their fans to add to a fighting fund to avoid relegation. While some of that fear is around dropping to the HL, it's not like the LL would be any better for them.

[glensmad]

Cheers, I take it from your initial reply your not too overwhelmed with it? I know it's a pot of paperwork but definitely possible for most bigger west clubs

We have the majority of the requirements already in place, however there are a number of smaller requirements which would need addressing and costing. Whether that means we take it further remains to be discussed internally.

[Tutankhamen]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That part is certainly true. East Stirlingshire went 2nd, 4th and 6th and needed a sugar daddy. Berwick are sitting 12th and there have been posters that would happily see an investor come in to take over the club.

You've now got the likes of Brechin City getting their fans to add to a fighting fund to avoid relegation. While some of that fear is around dropping to the HL, it's not like the LL would be any better for them.

Would it be a shock if a bigger name was to fall. A few bad seasons, no money and the support walks. Not beyond the likes of Clyde ending up playing Ruthergen Glencairn in a league game sometime in the mid to long term. I can remember watching Kilmarnock playing Queens Park at Hampden in the then bottom league. A few bad seasons or a few good seasons depending on which way each club is going. Killie v say Irvine Meadow is not as far fetched as it seems in a true pyramid. 

[wow-wee]

On 21/12/2019 at 18:20, nicotina said:

it helps if u don't have to put money into a ground for upkeep etc

lok are flawed in many ways, toilet etc but at least we own our own ground and have an identity with an area

Do you not think this is where polloks problem lies that owning their ground is a problem when it comes to trying to upgrade it to licence standard it's too costly to achieve where teams that rent from councils or any other ways seem to get the standard required for a fraction of the cost. Would it not be easier selling the ground which would probably be worth several million and build a modern stadium that will give the club a base for years too come . Where they could move to in the area I dont know but that's what I would consider.

[glensmad]

Do you not think this is where polloks problem lies that owning their ground is a problem when it comes to trying to upgrade it to licence standard it's too costly to achieve where teams that rent from councils or any other ways seem to get the standard required for a fraction of the cost. Would it not be easier selling the ground which would probably be worth several million and build a modern stadium that will give the club a base for years too come . Where they could move to in the area I dont know but that's what I would consider.

Perhaps they could move to Pollok ? [emoji56]

[wow-wee]

7 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Perhaps they could move to Pollok ?

Yeah they could move to pollok

[GNU_Linux]

iirc back in 70s or 80s Pollok nearly moved to somewhere in Pollokshields

 

 

[Robert James]

6 hours ago, wow-wee said:

Do you not think this is where polloks problem lies that owning their ground is a problem when it comes to trying to upgrade it to licence standard it's too costly to achieve where teams that rent from councils or any other ways seem to get the standard required for a fraction of the cost. Would it not be easier selling the ground which would probably be worth several million and build a modern stadium that will give the club a base for years too come . Where they could move to in the area I dont know but that's what I would consider.

Looking ahead, Pollok's licensing problem maybe in securing approval for installing floodlights, owing to the ground's proximity to residential properties. NCL Golspie Sutherland failed to get council permission to install lights, following objections from local residents.

Relocation could be necessary.

[Black Pennel]

Maybe not presenting the best case scenario for them there, uncle Bob...I can almost hear the rustling of Werthers Original wrappers from thirty miles away...

[Guest]

The licensing process will only be an issue as and when the west junior clubs join the pyramid, and only for clubs that wish to get licensed - to either play in the Scottish Cup or because they are going for promotion to the LL. Clubs can of course get their house in order prior to making any move but there is no requirement to change anything they currently do in order to join the pyramid, literally not a thing. Just push the sjfa to move over en masse (West only at this stage), job done.

[Cameron Wilson]

15 hours ago, Robert James said:

Looking ahead, Pollok's licensing problem maybe in securing approval for installing floodlights, owing to the ground's proximity to residential properties. NCL Golspie Sutherland failed to get council permission to install lights, following objections from local residents.

Relocation could be necessary.

I never understand how floodlights can be objectionable... It's not like they are turned on in the middle of the night keeping people awake. Lack of community support definitely an issue for local clubs in some places.

[Tutankhamen]

What present day SFL clubs would folks like to see relegated to the LL and beyond? Obviously any club above the Tay are heading to the Highland League. 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

On 26/12/2019 at 20:24, glensmad said:

Perhaps they could move to Pollok ?

Hey, brought up in Pollok and played many times in New Cumnock, I know where I'd rather be >>>>> looks out an Halo icon.

I will say Glensmad I get the impression from your posts that at least you and your club are covering all bases, dotting the iiis and crossing the ttttt before your club, if and when they apply to join the senior ranks.   Its always best to get your house in order before changing direction incase anything untoward pops up.

Every team in the junior ranks will have an experience if and when they join the senior ranks, some good times, some bad times.
Every team will reach their correct level eventually, Glenafton, Auchinleck, Pollok, Arthurlie, Clydebank etc... and that's not just got to do with how many fan base each club has but the management, the players, the strength of the committee in how good they are about foresight into the clubs future progression and then adopting their ideas and plans and that they all work out.

Anyways, who says Pollok has a licensing  problem, I got the impression of working in the academy and dealing with the first team, and with the fans that many don't want to move and moving up the pyramid isn't a big thing for them, well it wasn't a few years back. insaying that, there is a lot of elderly supporter and as they pass the torch to the younger supporters coming up them may have  different view.

 

and if say a west region joins the pyramid and one west teams wins the top league and then find out they cant get to tier 5 because they have no floodlights installed so then its simple, they just have to stay in the league they are in and the opportunity falls to the next placed team below them who  have floodlights.

Think it was glens who said it, so what if the west region joins, it wont cost any more money for the junior clubs and they will all usually be staying where they are and will usually be playing the same teams s they normally do.       

I'm all for the pyramid system and all the junior teams joining, obviously this takes president but I'm more involved in the youth and if and when all these changes happen it will have  a big effect on youth football so I'm hoping most will get their house in order as for many clubs youth football will become more important to them

Edited December 28, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Cyclizine]

36 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

  I'm all for the pyramid system and all the junior teams joining, obviously this takes president but I'm more involved in the youth and if and when all these changes happen it will have  a big effect on youth football so I'm hoping most will get their house in order as for many clubs youth football will become more important to them

I think one of the big opportunities in integrating everything into one structure will be the ability to develop a unified youth structure across the board. One system with one contract allowing the young players to play U20 and be in the senior team squad too. The East U20 has been a gamechanger.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

4 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I think one of the big opportunities in integrating everything into one structure will be the ability to develop a unified youth structure across the board. One system with one contract allowing the young players to play U20 and be in the senior team squad too. The East U20 has been a gamechanger.

Right now for example, you have U19s youth leagues, U21 youth leagues and if junior teams join the senior ranks they will want a clear youth structure and obviously an U20 development teams. Some clubs and youth academies are already impressing themselves in their structure to make sure this will seamlessly fall into place if and when the pyramid takes shape in the West. Right now with the 28 odd teams from East who joined the Pyramid had a detrimental effect on the east grassroots football, especially at U19s and u21 level and it will obviously have an effect here, although teams like Clydebank, Pollok, Rossvale etc... with their youth academies, should all still have u19s teams and u21 teams as well as a u20s development team.
I will say, a bit of restructuring will have to happen with most of the academies, including he ones mentioned but I'm sure most already know this anyways, well I hope they do

I'm sure there will be issues with teams and SYFA etc.. but hopefully they can all be sorted if and when they come up with problems and sort them accordingly.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Right now for example, you have U19s youth leagues, U21 youth leagues and if junior teams join the senior ranks they will want a clear youth structure and obviously an U20 development teams. Some clubs and youth academies are already impressing themselves in their structure to make sure this will seamlessly fall into place if and when the pyramid takes shape in the West. Right now with the 28 odd teams from East who joined the Pyramid had a detrimental effect on the east grassroots football, especially at U19s and u21 level and it will obviously have an effect here, although teams like Clydebank, Pollok, Rossvale etc... with their youth academies, should all still have u19s teams and u21 teams as well as a u20s development team.
I will say, a bit of restructuring will have to happen with most of the academies, including he ones mentioned but I'm sure most already know this anyways, well I hope they do

I'm sure there will be issues with teams and SYFA etc.. but hopefully they can all be sorted if and when they come up with problems and sort them accordingly.

What do you mean "detrimental effect"? Most of those 28 odd teams didn't have any sort of youth structure, but many have now joined the Lowland U20 Development League and are benefitting from it.

There is no U21 football in the east.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

What do you mean "detrimental effect"? Most of those 28 odd teams didn't have any sort of youth structure, but many have now joined the Lowland U20 Development League and are benefitting from it.

There is no U21 football in the east.

Detrimental effect on grassroots football on the east at U19s and u21s level and even in the Scottish there has been less of a challenge.
and yes there is no u21 football in the east we all know this, well suppose the people who deal with youth football know.  We only have one league in the west at u21s with 3 divisions and obviously this will be effected if many junior teams join the pyramid system, taking local youth teams with them.

Our youth football has been in decline, especially at u19s and u21s, quite a few restrictions by the SYFA and other bodies haven't helped but anyways so remedies need to be implemented, but that's a long story for the youth section post

[Burnie_man]

10 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Detrimental effect on grassroots football on the east at U19s and u21s level and even in the Scottish there has been less of a challenge.
and yes there is no u21 football in the east we all know this, well suppose the people who deal with youth football know.  We only have one league in the west at u21s with 3 divisions and obviously this will be effected if many junior teams join the pyramid system, taking local youth teams with them.

Our youth football has been in decline, especially at u19s and u21s, quite a few restrictions by the SYFA and other bodies haven't helped but anyways so remedies need to be implemented, but that's a long story for the youth section post

You said there has been a detrimental effect by the fact former Junior teams have started U20 sides, can you explain why? It can't have had a detrimental effect to U21 football as it hasn't really existed in the east since the LL U20 league began 5 or so years ago, even before that it was struggling.  U19's now have a stepping stone into senior football if they are not quite ready once finished at U19 level.  It's breathed life into the top end of youth football IMO.

Mind you, U20 football (if West clubs began joining in future) would probably have an impact on their stand alone U21 league.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Bestsinceslicebread]

23 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You said there has been a detrimental effect by the fact former Junior teams have started U20 sides, can you explain why? It can't have had a detrimental effect to U21 football as it hasn't really existed in the east since the LL U20 league began 5 or so years ago, even before that it was struggling.  U19's now have a stepping stone into senior football if they are not quite ready once finished at U19 level.  It's breathed life into the top end of youth football IMO.

Mind you, U20 football (if West clubs began joining in future) would probably have an impact on their stand alone U21 league.

The detrimental effect is on grassroots football. common sense tells everyone that there is a growth in U20s football

As far as im aware there was a u21 league a few years ago, as there was a challenge from teams in the Scottish at U21s and at u19s n the east then again, agreeing with you it was in decline as has the U21 in the West in decline.  This is not just because junior teams from the east joined the pyramid as youth football at these ages are in decline for years but definitely have had an impact on grassroots football. There are less U19s teams participating in the east as it was two years ago.  A development league is a league for players to be development in order to get them to the first team in a level that the first team will deem good enough.  Average boys who play football, who might not be good enough wont be with these teams so they will be left in the lurch if there are less teams going about at grassroots once these boys are at U19s and u21s, thus less boys involved in football, that is what is deemed by detrimental effect.
You say, Its breathed life into the top end of youth football and yeah everyone agrees with this but has it shafted the other end.  If the west region joins the  pyramid ranks then it will have a detrimental effect on youth football at grassroots at U19s and u21s, the academies should be able to cope but some stand alone teams wont as some of their players might want to go to the u19s teams who are part of academies or first teams.

The youth post was added into to let people know that there will be changes at youth level, grassroots etc..   its not intended to be a big section on this thread, it was only a point

 

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread