Junior football, what is the future?

[Hampden Diehard]

According to a poster called Prorege on Nonleague matters:
https://nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?post=957825#957825
Things are moving and it seems certain that there will be a West League in the pyramid system, probably in 2020/1 but certainly in 2021/2. Either the SJFA have abandoned their all or nobody approach, or the West Region Juniors have told them they'll go it alone.
Other matters still simmering are Lowland League 2, and the re-alignment of the Highland / Lowland border to the natural Stonehaven / Helensburgh line.
https://nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?post=957829#957829
If the line moves to the Helensburgh / Stonehaven HBF then Brechin is south of it.
Brechin, supported by Forfar, Montrose and Arbroath are lobbying for the line to be moved so they fall into LL territory.
They argue that all 4 clubs train in the central belt and their playing squads are primarily based in the Forth-Clyde valley. The players only go to the home ground for home games. The location of the towns would be peripheral to the HL and recruiting players to commit to the daunting HL schedule would be difficult.
They believe sending them to the HL would be counter-intuitive.
Furthermore, they feel, there are several HL clubs who would invest heavily for the glory of winning the HL but have no interest in moving up to the SPFL. The LL would be more of a level playing field with all likely winners committed to promotion.
Scottish football bodies respond to what their member clubs want rather than what spreadsheets and calculators suggest. The SPFL could easily withdraw from the relegation play off if the pyramid arrangements do not suit them.

Pish, surely. The Angus clubs are from north of Dundee, irrespective of where their players come from or where they train. Elgin could possibly claim the same.

[Burnie_man]

Except there was the claim made that Brechin, Forfar, Montrose and Arbroath are actively lobbying for this, which appears to hint at inside knowledge and Prorege has had a decent track record from what I remember of being in the know ahead of time on issues like this in the past. Burnie_man doesn't appear to know the contents of the four proposals, which if anything is probably a sign that things are going quite amicably, if none of the parties directly involved are eager to leak the info all over P&B at this point to try to drive opinion on the matter within the game in line with their preferred spin as happened last season. It's not clear how if he doesn't know the specifics, he can be so sure that the boundary line didn't feature.

I can be sure on the boundary line as I asked the question! Same with LL2, same with west in/east out scenario.

It'll all come out in the wash no doubt.

[San Starko Rover]

Sorry but for me the HL/LL boundary is about right Inverness, Aberdeen, Dundee (North) Edinburgh, Glasgow (South) the only question is should it be a straight line or run along regional areas.  Yes lots of teams that fall in the North would rather it was moved as they'd recruit players more easily but moving it creates a ridiculous imbalance between the two areas akin to the SOS and WRJFA and the Lowland already has far more clubs.  The East Juniors understandably want it moved as some teams North of the Tay play in the East Juniors but the East Juniors never played as far south as Tweedmouth and Hawick and it seems unfair to force the Borders teams into further travel to suit a few teams.  The NRJFA, NCL, ERJFA (North of tay) and HL need to sit down and work out a structure to feed the HL and let the SOS, WRJFA, EOS and LL work out the best structure to feed the LL.  Personally I think the LL should be fed by East and West leagues.  The HL should be fed by two leagues split geographically between Inverness and Aberdeen.  

[Whitburn Vale]

Moving the boundary line to suit the Tayside juniors and the 4 big Angus clubs is complete nonsense.

They are well closer to the HL clubs than anywhere else?

The traffic network in the north is improving year on year,I.e AWPR/A9 so travelling is no excuse.

Totally agree about promotion and relegation from the HL,it will happen and has to happen. 

Get the West juniors in first then look to piece in the East and North after that.

[Sergeant Wilson]

37 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

the 4 big Angus clubs

It's not every day you see the referred to like that.

[LongTimeLurker]

Les didi-clubs Angusois is the phrase that is normally used in French. Given the HL and NRSJFA are happy puttering along doing their own thing and a lot of HL clubs tend to see the pyramid as something that happens south of Stonehaven and Fort William that has nothing much to do with them, I doubt they would be heartbroken not to have to deal with Brechin City down the road. The only fly in the ointment on a boundary line shift would be Montrose Roselea. 

[FairWeatherFan]

And Roselea are the club that have helped prove some of the concerns wrong over moving North as an Angus club.

[santheman]

12 hours ago, G4Mac said:

We are not in kansas anymore toto......

If I click my heels will I get back from this alternate reality?

No prizes for guessing who liked that post

[AsimButtHitsASix]

20 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I think there's a decent number people with an understanding that Oban Saints operate in Central Scotland area amateur football. Doesn't anyone else find it incredibly weird that its then Helensburgh that gets used for the West Side marker on the new '"line"?

Wouldn't it be easier to say Stonehaven and Oban? Since that has no effect on any junior / senior league. Whereas if you try and draw the line to just south of Stonehaven and just north of Helensburgh you end up cutting through parts of Perthshire and Angus.

Isn't the very idea of a straight line: whether it be from Helensburgh, Oban or the Tay Bridge just not strike anyone else as farcical anyway? Scotland doesn't have any straight lines on its geography or transport network. Would it not be easier to go by council areas or something? Argyll and Bute, Stirlingshire, Clackmannanshire, Falkirk and Fife = LL. Perthshire, Dundee, Angus = HL? (Actual council areas position on the split to be argued about later). You could even have some council areas be either/or. Have a hard border of clubs who will need to go into the HL pyramid for Aberdeenshire, Moray, Highlands, etc. and the same for LL but places that could be argued either way such as Angus, Perthshire the clubs can choose which way they'd rather go. In a few years time Montrose or Forfar could weigh up between a HL with more travelling but a better chance of promotion from than a league with the best of the former juniors and EoS teams

Or even have a fluid boundary line. If the HL/LL can get parity in numbers you just reshuffle which league the clubs are in depending who goes up/down. 16 teams furthest North go into HL and, if that happens to be Lochee in the HL or it happens to be Brechin in the LL so be it? The divide will find its own natural boundary in time

[santheman]

I see the cavalry has arrived

[Burnie_man]

We are not in kansas anymore toto...... [emoji1787]

If I click my heels will I get back from this alternate reality?

Don't shatter his delusions [emoji23]

[cmontheloknow]

3 hours ago, santheman said:

I see the cavalry has arrived

The pyramid could ultimately see the end of the SJFA as with greater integration with the senior non-leagues (who exist without a nebulous national association) it The SJFA has had a proud history but it may struggle for relevance as time passes.

Edited December 14, 2019 by cmontheloknow

[BTID]

It’s already irrelevant 

[Burnie_man]

OK, the four "suggestions" are;

1. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA remain out of Pyramid.

2. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA join at tier 7 and feed into EoS Premier.

3. Same proposal as a year ago, West and East in at tier 6 next season.

4. LL splits into West and East of 12-16 clubs each for 2021-22, WRJFA and SoS feed into West, ERJFA and EoS feed into East.

None of these are considered firm SFA proposals.   NRJFA remain out of Pyramid.  Leagues to discuss with members and feedback at PWG meeting end of January. 

Views also sought about removing HL/LL boundary.

The only one I can see that will be acceptable to LL and EoS is option 1.  I doubt EoS clubs will agree to option 2, LL won't agree to split, and option 3 has already been rejected.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

OK, the four "suggestions" are;

1. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA remain out of Pyramid.

2. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA join at tier 7 and feed into EoS Premier.

3. Same proposal as a year ago, West and East in at tier 6 next season.

4. LL splits into West and East of 12-16 clubs each for 2021-22, WRJFA and SoS feed into West, ERJFA and EoS feed into East.

None of these are considered firm SFA proposals.   NRJFA remain out of Pyramid.  Leagues to discuss with members and feedback at PWG meeting end of January. 

Views also sought about removing HL/LL boundary.

The only one I can see that will be acceptable to LL and EoS is option 1.  I doubt EoS clubs will agree to option 2, LL won't agree to split, and option 3 has already been rejected.

Has the SPFL basically given it's approval for these since Option 4 was meant to be something they didn't want?

 

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Has the SPFL basically given it's approval for these since Option 4 was meant to be something they didn't want?

I'm lead to believe that all these are, are suggestions from Rod Petrie based on what has been discussed at previous PWG meetings.    Therefore, I doubt the SPFL are even aware.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I'm lead to believe that all these are, are suggestions from Rod Petrie based on what has been discussed at previous PWG meetings.    Therefore, I doubt the SPFL are even aware.

Well, option 4 would be my preference even if it's pie in the sky at the moment. With only 5 of the LL being in the West (6 if BSC can get a groundshare in the WoS in time) the LL West is going to most likely add 10 SJFA West clubs. With those clubs out of the SJFA, then the SJFA is done.

Eventually you could see the HFL, LL West and LL East evolve into being the top divisions in unified NoSFL, WoSFL and EoSFL structures.

Can also extend the league season as there wouldn't be the need for the HL/LL playoff before facing SPFL42. You can have the League Two playoff at the same time as the League One and Championship playoffs.

[cmontheloknow]

The E/W split of LL makes sense *if* there is any concession to the Angus 4. A league game of Glenafton v Brechin in LL is daft. If the boundary remains in place and the Angus 4 have to accept signing players from 'up north' rather than Glasgow should they ever be HFL, not sure it is needed... not sure.

[GNU_Linux]

Option 1 is only viable & correct out of those. Option 4 I could find agreeable without the ERJFA slotting in intact.

 

Regarding a boundry change proposal the LL/EOS could take the position of agreeing to it on the condition a full EOS/ERJFA merger occurs.

 

 

[parsforlife]

Option 1 is the only one with any hope of passing.

Well, option 4 would be my preference
Can also extend the league season as there wouldn't be the need for the HL/LL playoff before facing SPFL42. You can have the League Two playoff at the same time as the League One and Championship playoffs.

Presumably you’d be looking at a play-off of (randomly draw)

East champions vs club 42
West champions vs HL

Winner tie A vs winner tie B. Winning finalist in spfl.

In which case there’s no chance of spfl approval. It effectively doubles the chance of relegation.

Tho I kinda agree option 4 works long term, it needs far more to happen first tho. You need WJFA in the pyramid for a few years for clubs to get licensed and time for a few more EoS clubs licensed. You probably need 40+ Lowland region clubs licensed to justify the extra opportunity to go up and to provide strong enough leagues to get relegated into. You would also need the situation in the east sorted so the EJFA does just become a tayside league and EoS takes south of tay. You would need to re-address the infamous boundary and agree on where the west/east line lies as well.

2031 maybe, but 2021 is never achievable and it’s far too long of time scale to commit anything to right away, it only works if those goals are achieved ‘naturally’