Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

On 01/12/2019 at 09:06, parsforlife said:

 

HL has had real difficulty in getting a champion before the play-offs with 18 teams, I doubt the LL would want to be put in that position. Tho with floodlights becoming mandatory there is more scope for midweek games(again tho the HL has these and struggles)

 

The HFL has coped with 18 clubs, and the region has far worse weather than that which the Lowland clubs experience.  Let's get real here.

[Robert James]

On 07/12/2019 at 15:07, FairWeatherFan said:

There's meant to have been some sort of change to the licensing process. The licensing committee sits for the final time very early in the year February/March instead of April/May. Before being officially confirmed at the SFA AGM in June.

I've not seen it said that Cumnock and Petershill had their applications accepted and are actually in the licensing process right now. I know it took Dunipace quite some time before being confirmed.

If the PWG is only sitting next week and confirms the West's entry into the pyramid it doesn't leave a lot of time to be accepted into the Licensing process, be audited and approved in time for 2020-21.

 

 

Surely Cumnock and Petershill would need a special dispensation, to get past the first licensing stage in February, on the basis that these clubs are not currently members of a "senior" league ? Or am I missing something ?

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Surely Cumnock and Petershill would need a special dispensation, to get past the first licensing stage in February, on the basis that these clubs are not currently members of a "senior" league ? Or am I missing something ?

This was in response to the idea the the West Region is accepted into the pyramid for 2020-21 at the December PWG allowing clubs to start the licencing process.

[FairWeatherFan]

40 minutes ago, Robert James said:

The HFL has coped with 18 clubs, and the region has far worse weather than that which the Lowland clubs experience.  Let's get real here.

There is a bit of a difference. The HFL have their 34 game season, then HFL League Cup (5 Rounds) and then either the North of Scotland Cup (4 Rounds) or Aberdeenshire Cup (4 Rounds) & Shield (4 Rounds). So the potential for 43-47 Rounds of fixtures + Scottish Cup runs.

The Lowland League has a 30 game season, LL League Cup (4 Rounds), the SCC (7 rounds). That alone takes every team upto 41 games plus the Scottish Cup. You've then got to consider those clubs that compete in the likes of the Qualifying Cup, Southern Counties Cup, Fife Cup plus some others.

Due to the number of clubs and variety of cups in the Lowland region.  The Lowland League are already accounting for the same number of rounds of fixtures per season as the HFL. If not more.

[parsforlife]

The HFL has coped with 18 clubs, and the region has far worse weather than that which the Lowland clubs experience.  Let's get real here.

Your definition of coping is obviously different to mine. Cos needing to ask for the entire play-off fixtures to be re-arranged doesn’t sound like coping at all.

[Robert James]

15 hours ago, parsforlife said:

 

Your definition of coping is obviously different to mine. Cos needing to ask for the entire play-off fixtures to be re-arranged doesn’t sound like coping at all.

 

The EoSL dealt okay with the 'round robin'  Conference play-offs last season.  If the West clubs join, only ONE promotion spot to the SLL, shared with the EoSL (no, I haven't forgotten the much weaker SoSL), sounds like a pyramid 'log jam'. to me. 

Also, Edinburgh City (and now Cove Rangers) seem to have coped, even though they now play 36 league games in the SPFL each season. Discounting the popular Scottish Cup, would fans prefer cup games to league fixtures ? Which attracts the higher attendances ?

Status quo 'protectionism' for existing SLL clubs ?  Surely not, as with a future  league of 18 SLL clubs, 16 clubs would be safe from relegation each season, whereas with the current 16 club league, only 15 clubs are safe from relegation each season. 

Footnote: before someone mentions it, if SPFL club 42 is relegated, and the HFL champions are promoted in their place, an extra SLL club would be relegated. This extra SLL relegation place, would be the same under both a 16 or an 18 club Lowland League.

Comparison : The English pyramid seems to be promotion/relegation vibrant. Scotland should surely follow suit ?

 

[Dev]

On 07/12/2019 at 15:07, FairWeatherFan said:

There's meant to have been some sort of change to the licensing process. The licensing committee sits for the final time very early in the year February/March instead of April/May. Before being officially confirmed at the SFA AGM in June.

I've not seen it said that Cumnock and Petershill had their applications accepted and are actually in the licensing process right now. I know it took Dunipace quite some time before being confirmed.

If the PWG is only sitting next week and confirms the West's entry into the pyramid it doesn't leave a lot of time to be accepted into the Licensing process, be audited and approved in time for 2020-21.

 

 

Presumably any club which is applying for a licence and is expecting to be in a Senior League for 2020/21 couldn't be held back by the SFA?

… so maybe the SFA will be in a position to start the licencing process for Cumnock and Petershill, and any other current West Region Junior club moving into a senior league situation in 2020/21. Indeed, or any other club moving into the EoS (or the Highand League for that matter) for next season.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Dev said:

Presumably any club which is applying for a licence and is expecting to be in a Senior League for 2020/21 couldn't be held back by the SFA?

… so maybe the SFA will be in a position to start the licencing process for Cumnock and Petershill, and any other current West Region Junior club moving into a senior league situation in 2020/21. Indeed, or any other club moving into the EoS (or the Highand League for that matter) for next season.

Blackburn & Dalkeith were unable to start the licensing process until they had been accepted by the EoS in April 2018. Even then I believe it's up to the Licensing Committee to confirm the acceptance of the application. That didn't happen until May/June.

Until it's confirmed the West Region will be in the pyramid for 2020-2021 I don't believe any club would be allowed to start the process. If that happens at this week's PWG, applications probably won't be heard by the Licensing Committee until February. February being the new deadline to have everything assessed and completed for SFA membership in 2020-21.

Going on past precedence and the new deadline it doesn't look like enough time for current junior clubs to be licensed in time for 2020-21.

That doesn't stop clubs joining the EoS. Doesn't stop the West Region entering the pyramid in 2020-21. It is only a potential problem for a club wanting to join the HFL, but Banks O'Dee are already licensed and nobody else is rumoured as interested.

 

[GNU_Linux]

Blackburn & Dalkeith were unable to start the licensing process until they had been accepted by the EoS in April 2018. Even then I believe it's up to the Licensing Committee to confirm the acceptance of the application. That didn't happen until May/June.
Until it's confirmed the West Region will be in the pyramid for 2020-2021 I don't believe any club would be allowed to start the process. If that happens at this week's PWG, applications probably won't be heard by the Licensing Committee until February. February being the new deadline to have everything assessed and completed for SFA membership in 2020-21.
Going on past precedence and the new deadline it doesn't look like enough time for current junior clubs to be licensed in time for 2020-21.
That doesn't stop clubs joining the EoS. Doesn't stop the West Region entering the pyramid in 2020-21. It is only a potential problem for a club wanting to join the HFL, but Banks O'Dee are already licensed and nobody else is rumoured as interested.
 

re: clubs looking to join the Highland League I saw a rumour on another forum that Bridge Of Don Thistle are interested in moving up to the HL. Ofc do to so the club would need a waiver of sorts as they have no licence & can't obtain one currently being outwith the pyramid.

[Dev]

26 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

38 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Blackburn & Dalkeith were unable to start the licensing process until they had been accepted by the EoS in April 2018. Even then I believe it's up to the Licensing Committee to confirm the acceptance of the application. That didn't happen until May/June.
Until it's confirmed the West Region will be in the pyramid for 2020-2021 I don't believe any club would be allowed to start the process. If that happens at this week's PWG, applications probably won't be heard by the Licensing Committee until February. February being the new deadline to have everything assessed and completed for SFA membership in 2020-21.
Going on past precedence and the new deadline it doesn't look like enough time for current junior clubs to be licensed in time for 2020-21.
That doesn't stop clubs joining the EoS. Doesn't stop the West Region entering the pyramid in 2020-21. It is only a potential problem for a club wanting to join the HFL, but Banks O'Dee are already licensed and nobody else is rumoured as interested.
 

re: clubs looking to join the Highland League I saw a rumour on another forum that Bridge Of Don Thistle are interested in moving up to the HL. Ofc do to so the club would need a waiver of sorts as they have no licence & can't obtain one currently being outwith the pyramid.

However, it is a Chicken and Egg situation now and if the SFA mean to facilitate a Pyramid they could perhaps take a step back and try to understand that they are causing a blockage with regard to licencing and to movement up to the Highland League - but not to clubs moving to senior football in the east of Scotland.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

25 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

37 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Blackburn & Dalkeith were unable to start the licensing process until they had been accepted by the EoS in April 2018. Even then I believe it's up to the Licensing Committee to confirm the acceptance of the application. That didn't happen until May/June.
Until it's confirmed the West Region will be in the pyramid for 2020-2021 I don't believe any club would be allowed to start the process. If that happens at this week's PWG, applications probably won't be heard by the Licensing Committee until February. February being the new deadline to have everything assessed and completed for SFA membership in 2020-21.
Going on past precedence and the new deadline it doesn't look like enough time for current junior clubs to be licensed in time for 2020-21.
That doesn't stop clubs joining the EoS. Doesn't stop the West Region entering the pyramid in 2020-21. It is only a potential problem for a club wanting to join the HFL, but Banks O'Dee are already licensed and nobody else is rumoured as interested.
 

re: clubs looking to join the Highland League I saw a rumour on another forum that Bridge Of Don Thistle are interested in moving up to the HL. Ofc do to so the club would need a waiver of sorts as they have no licence & can't obtain one currently being outwith the pyramid.

That's probably the case and has probably always been so. Its not much different to how they were meant to lower some of their ground standards when accepting Formartine, Turriff and Strathspey knowing they had made a commitment to improve them.

[Ray Patterson]

Well BOD Thistle play at Aberdeen Sports Village which is certainly not far off HL requirements. Needs turnstiles, and a peh shop.

But I'm pretty sure when that poster on another thread said BOD Thistle, he meant Banks o' Dee and not Foxholes Thistle as some are calling them.

[Boswelldriver]

Haven't been on here for a while and there is no way I am looking through these pages.

Question : "The Scottish Junior Cup" will it be retained and we'll it be changed to s different name once the move with the juniors is made?

[Robert James]

10 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

Well BOD Thistle play at Aberdeen Sports Village which is certainly not far off HL requirements. Needs turnstiles, and a peh shop.

But I'm pretty sure when that poster on another thread said BOD Thistle, he meant Banks o' Dee and not Foxholes Thistle as some are calling them.

Interesting, especially if two BOD's apply for HFL membership in 2020/21, as it is hard to see if a 36 match season is manageable in the Highlands.

Bridge of Don and Bank O'Dee (already rumoured for 20/21 (despite declining to join this season) at the same time ? Also, how about Aberdeen University FC, which has the facilities, and floodlights, also applying ? The Uni was a full member of the SFA in the early 70's.

[Guest]

Haven't been on here for a while and there is no way I am looking through these pages.

Question : "The Scottish Junior Cup" will it be retained and we'll it be changed to s different name once the move with the juniors is made?

Unconfirmed. In short no one knows. My view, it isnt required in the pyramid as there is already enough cups on the go.

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

29 minutes ago, Boswelldriver said:

Haven't been on here for a while and there is no way I am looking through these pages.

Question : "The Scottish Junior Cup" will it be retained and we'll it be changed to s different name once the move with the juniors is made?

 

Unconfirmed. In short no one knows. My view, it isnt required in the pyramid as there is already enough cups on the go.

Short term it will remain as there aren't existing senior cup competitions that the West Region in the pyramid would be obligated to participate in. To fit their season into the pyramid calendar the Junior Cup will probably have to be rejigged a little to help avoid fixture congestion. So replays and two legged semi finals might have to be looked at.

The cup's already been hit with the loss some of the biggest East Juniors, there's going to be the gradual loss of other clubs to promotion or league movements and the cup will have to be streamlined as noted. Eventually you'll see some sort of merger or the creation of a new competition as the senior clubs don't seem as tied to the junior nostalgia. A newer name with SFA support would probably be more attractive for sponsorship purposes as well.

[Spyro]

5 hours ago, Dev said:

However, it is a Chicken and Egg situation now and if the SFA mean to facilitate a Pyramid they could perhaps take a step back and try to understand that they are causing a blockage with regard to licencing and to movement up to the Highland League - but not to clubs moving to senior football in the east of Scotland.

 

Or a 2-tier highland league???

[Ginaro]

4 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Well BOD Thistle play at Aberdeen Sports Village which is certainly not far off HL requirements. Needs turnstiles, and a peh shop.

But I'm pretty sure when that poster on another thread said BOD Thistle, he meant Banks o' Dee and not Foxholes Thistle as some are calling them.

Aberdeen Sports Village would also need floodlights surely? http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/bridgeofdon.htm

4 hours ago, Boswelldriver said:

Question : "The Scottish Junior Cup" will it be retained and we'll it be changed to s different name once the move with the juniors is made?

Well the junior clubs have the Junior Cup, and the senior non-league clubs have the South Challenge Cup - if/when everyone comes together then there should be one cup competition for all non-league clubs in the south. So either the Junior Cup accepts all the senior teams, or everyone enters the South Challenge Cup instead.

[Black Pennel]

41 minutes ago, Spyro said:

Or a 2-tier highland league???

They can't allow a chicken & egg situation to develop due to all the foxes in their area.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Aberdeen Sports Village would also need floodlights surely? http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/bridgeofdon.htm

Some of the pics show there are lights around the area of the pitch. Going by the pricing the Outdoor Athletics area, which has the pitch at its centre, is available both peak and off peak. Which would mean its available till 10.30pm on some days.

13 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Well the junior clubs have the Junior Cup, and the senior non-league clubs have the South Challenge Cup - if/when everyone comes together then there should be one cup competition for all non-league clubs in the south. So either the Junior Cup accepts all the senior teams, or everyone enters the South Challenge Cup instead.

Or they eventually just merge or scrap them for a new competition.