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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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16 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:

I'd rather see the Junior & South Challenge Cup merged to facilitate the west juniors playing LL/EOS et al teams

I expect if/when the West enters the pyramid they will be invited to enter the South Challenge Cup.  The LL, EoS and SoS run the comp between them.

Where this leaves the Junior Cup who knows, I can't see there being any room for it, and definitely not in it's current format. Unless the West continue to enter instead of the SCC.

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34 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I expect if/when the West enters the pyramid they will be invited to enter the South Challenge Cup.  The LL, EoS and SoS run the comp between them.

Where this leaves the Junior Cup who knows, I can't see there being any room for it, and definitely not in it's current format. Unless the West continue to enter instead of the SCC.

I doubt they'd accept the invite right now due to the conflict with the Junior Cup. 

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31 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

The Junior Cup is an emaciated skeleton. A kindness would be a bolt to the head.

An SCC plus the West juniors would have over 128 teams in it. So the same number of rounds as the Junior Cup.

The Junior Cup has a sponsor, prize money when you get to the semis and has greater recognition because of its history. 

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The Junior Cup has a sponsor, prize money when you get to the semis and has greater recognition because of its history. 


What is the prize for the winner of the South Challenge Cup? What is the prize for the Junior Cup? How much money do the junior clubs get who participate in the junior cup? If the sponsorship money doesn't go to the clubs where does it go?
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39 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

An SCC plus the West juniors would have over 128 teams in it. So the same number of rounds as the Junior Cup.

The Junior Cup has a sponsor, prize money when you get to the semis and has greater recognition because of its history. 

The last year of Macron's sponsorship is next season.  If the west move into Senior football, where does that leave the Junior Cup and it's sponsorship?

The South Challenge Cup won't just simply go away, that is the main cup competition for LL, EoS and SoS outwith the William Hill Scottish.  Both can't realistically run for all clubs, so if West stick with Junior Cup it's just a glorifed WoS Cup.

Of course, it will be the only reason for the SJFA to continue to exist.

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Just now, Burnie_man said:

The South Challenge Cup won't just simply go away, that is the main cup competition for LL, EoS and SoS outwith the William Hill Scottish.  Both can't realistically run for all clubs, so if West stick with Junior Cup it's just a glorifed WoS Cup.

I'm not saying it will. I'm just saying right now comparing the current SCC to the current Junior Cup there's more incentive for West Region clubs in the pyramid to continue to participate in the Junior Cup over the SCC.

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1 hour ago, G4Mac said:


 

 


What is the prize for the winner of the South Challenge Cup? What is the prize for the Junior Cup? How much money do the junior clubs get who participate in the junior cup? If the sponsorship money doesn't go to the clubs where does it go?

I'm not aware of the South Challenge Cup have set prize money. Certainly never seen it mentioned. For the first two years the SFA put in £20,000 each to both North and South Challenge Cups. After two years the SFA pulled the funding which is one of the reasons the HFL scrapped the North version. They couldn't find sponsors for it and it was basically the HFL League Cup.

For the SJFA Scottish Cup the SJFA guarantee a minimum of £5,000 to each club competing in the semi finals and £12,000 to each finalist. I found it a little strange no mention of the Winner making more. Maybe that's somewhere else in the constitution. So it appears you make a minimum £5,000 as a losing semi finalist and £17,000 as a finalist. Plus the Cup Winner would be guaranteed entry to the SFA Scottish Cup as a qualifier.

image.png.6df8bec08c9421d9f61ad21ff50f5456.png

The Senior leagues need to get the SFA back to funding a national non-league cup. Even just that £40,000 the Challenge Cups used to get and an additional sponsor it'd be more attractive than the Junior Cup.

EDIT:

Found the SCC regulations dated from 2017

http://slfl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/SFA-South-Region-Challenge-Cup-regulations-version-4.pdf

They mention financing the competition but no specific numbers. Also all gate receipts go to the home side until the Final. So the leagues aren't taking a cut of the gate through the early rounds to use as prize money and there's no sponsor. It's not clear what kind of prize money they could offer other than any surplus from the Final.

image.png.124fc41121cbcc3c8969fed0dc969fb2.png

Edited by FairWeatherFan
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59 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm not saying it will. I'm just saying right now comparing the current SCC to the current Junior Cup there's more incentive for West Region clubs in the pyramid to continue to participate in the Junior Cup over the SCC.

If there's a choice right now then of course, the SJFA aren't a poor organisation either.  However going forward...

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Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

Going forward it's more likely to be a new competition formed. Which has always been the idea from the Senior side of things.

image.png.e4abf87ae919663d8176c77071ccc3f1.png

It we be good if it happened, but I have my doubts. If it happens it may be piecemeal to begin with as I don't think the HL are too keen, plus you have the question of how long the remaining Juniors hang around without moving to senior football.

Plus, I doubt Rod Petrie even is aware of that documents existence!

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2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It we be good if it happened, but I have my doubts. If it happens it may be piecemeal to begin with as I don't think the HL are too keen, plus you have the question of how long the remaining Juniors hang around without moving to senior football.

Plus, I doubt Rod Petrie even is aware of that documents existence!

Right now the assumption is that the West Region joins the pyramid for 2020-21. There's no talk of it being a breakaway. The SJFA are still representing them in the PWG meetings and the West Region will remain a part of the SJFA. No different than the EoSFL and EoSFA relationship.

So just look at it from the West Region perspective regardless of how the East and North regions play out in accessing the pyramid.

2020-21 they stick with the Junior Cup because of the two birds one stone idea. It offers a pathway for a non-licensed winner to enter the Scottish Cup and a is major end of season trophy. With so many non-licensed clubs in the region the Junior Cup should be workable in pyramid time constraints as the Senior Calender combines Scottish/Alex Jack/Alba Cup and SCC. dates set aside in the calendar.

2021-22 you've now got a bunch of West Region clubs licensed. That definitely forces the Junior Cup to restructure to make it fit into the Senior Calendar. Hitting the finances of the SJFA further having already lost revenue from meeting SFA rules and regs.

2022+ The lines between Junior and Senior are well and truly blurred. The West Region has potentially seen a club or two promoted to the Lowland League losing entry to the Junior Cup as they would be expected to participate in the SCC. Even more West Region clubs are licensed leaving lots of idle dates for non-licensed clubs that don't participate in the Scottish Cup. You see the talk of a National Non-League Trophy and a West "Alex Jack/Alba Cup" for non-licensed teams.

***

As for the HL not being keen. I'm still hoping that the HL/LL boundary doesn't move. Tayside clubs would probably be interested in a National Non-League trophy to renew old rivalries and you can't have Northern clubs like Lochee United play in the South Challenge Cup :)

 

 

 

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If the West Region clubs come into the Pyramid en masse for 2020/21 then surely a good few of them will be capable of becoming licenced in readiness for 2020/21 ? This would put them straight into the Scottish Cup too. Why wait?

There may be approaching 20 clubs which already have Flood-lights or are  planning to have them soon. It is supposed that Cumnock and Petershill are already in the licencing process. I don't suppose that Clydebank and others will just hold back a year before going for licencing. Why would they?

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18 minutes ago, Dev said:

If the West Region clubs come into the Pyramid en masse for 2020/21 then surely a good few of them will be capable of becoming licenced in readiness for 2020/21 ? This would put them straight into the Scottish Cup too. Why wait? ...

Think clubs would need to already have their application in by now to have a shot at the 2020/21 Scottish Cup.

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1 hour ago, Dev said:

If the West Region clubs come into the Pyramid en masse for 2020/21 then surely a good few of them will be capable of becoming licenced in readiness for 2020/21 ? This would put them straight into the Scottish Cup too. Why wait?

There may be approaching 20 clubs which already have Flood-lights or are  planning to have them soon. It is supposed that Cumnock and Petershill are already in the licencing process. I don't suppose that Clydebank and others will just hold back a year before going for licencing. Why would they?

There's meant to have been some sort of change to the licensing process. The licensing committee sits for the final time very early in the year February/March instead of April/May. Before being officially confirmed at the SFA AGM in June.

I've not seen it said that Cumnock and Petershill had their applications accepted and are actually in the licensing process right now. I know it took Dunipace quite some time before being confirmed.

If the PWG is only sitting next week and confirms the West's entry into the pyramid it doesn't leave a lot of time to be accepted into the Licensing process, be audited and approved in time for 2020-21.

 

 

Edited by FairWeatherFan
Tried to add Gaz5's quote but it wouldn't let me.
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On 03/09/2019 at 12:28, gaz5 said:

More changes to the club licencing process announced today.

The SFA board will, with immediate effect, only award licences once per year at their annual meeting in May or June.

Any applicant clubs must conform to criteria and be accepted by the licencing board at their February meeting, to be eligible to be awarded in May/June.

So, unless in mistaken:

Any currently unlicensed EoS premier League club (like Bo'ness) will be ineligible for promotion to the LL this year unless the LL waive their 31/03 deadline again or change their playoff rules permanently to note the new date as end June.

Also means that anyone in the process, like we have been since February 2019, who currently meet all the criteria have to wait with some trepidation for the licence update in December, despite meeting all current criteria.

If anything else is added you (and everyone else) have 4-7 weeks to get it done, get re-audited and through the licencing board or you have to wait another 18 months to have your licence awarded, having to go through the same period of uncertainty with everyone else the following year.

I won't give my opinion, just presenting the information to keep people updated.

The changes to the Licensing Process.

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