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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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16 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Assuming what has been posted on here is accurate, hopefully the most controversial issue on the 11th is going to be the introduction of a second automatic promotion place from the sixth tier into the LL, so the west region and EoS champions don't have to play off against each other. The problem is that LL clubs will have to sign off on that before any change to the playoff format can be made, and turkeys...

What happens with the SoSFL champion then? What happens when certain clubs get relegated?

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1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SoS champions would be as much of a factor as they are now under that scenario. Probable losers on the playoff, if two out of three can go up. Not sure what you are referring to with the second bit?

Right now they have a chance of promotion. Two promotion places split between the EoS Premier Division Champion and West Premiership champion is zero chance of promotion. So its not the same.

Relegation from the LL is decided by the leagues and takes into account where they play and not historical ties. That's why Gretna 2008 as former EoSFL members and existing EoSFA members will be relegated to the SoSFL.

A club like Cumbernauld Colts right now would be relegated to the EoSFL having never played there and never been a member. Would they be relegated to the West Premiership in future? Would they be expected to join the SJFA?

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8 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You appear to be trying to start an argument just for the sake of it. All I stated is that having the west region champion fighting the EoS champion for the one automatic promotion place from tier 6 that is currently available is something that should be avoided.

I'm not starting argument. I'm pointing out its not as simple

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the introduction of a second automatic promotion place from the sixth tier into the LL, so the west region and EoS champions don't have to play off against each other.

Because you've got to think of the SoSFL's place in the pyramid and how relegation will work from the LL.

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As is the case now, prior to any season of the LL starting, teams would continue to identify what league they would fall into if relegated.

Given the sos holds tier 6 status, and when there are 2 positions opened up for promotion/relegation in the LL, there would have to be a playoff between the three winners of each league, for the 2 spots. (now it may become clear why two overlapping league set ups for the same area won't work)

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It's not a case of when 2 positions are opened up but if. My point several posts ago was that the LL have an effective veto over any changes, so turkeys are going to have to vote for an early Christmas to avoid it usually being either/or for the east and west champions rather than usually both 

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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It's is their right to do so. It becomes a question of preserving what you have right now vs what you could have (game wise, financially from higher crowds etc) if Talbot, Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Clydebank etc were in the LL.

I feel they will wait until the spfl open up a straight promotion spot. Again, their right to do so. That is the right you get by buying into something at the start and not joining just because it looks good 5 or 6 years later.

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It's is their right to do so. It becomes a question of preserving what you have right now vs what you could have (game wise, financially from higher crowds etc) if Talbot, Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Clydebank etc were in the LL.

I feel they will wait until the spfl open up a straight promotion spot. Again, their right to do so. That is the right you get by buying into something at the start and not joining just because it looks good 5 or 6 years later.
Surely opening up 2 or even 3 automatic spots from a 16 team Lowland league like most other leagues of the same size as in West Juniors have would mean a better standard of team in Lowland League more quickly then the SPFL League Two would then be more willing to open up automatic relegation too. Replacing the teams near the bottom of Lowland League with Boness, Camelon, Penicuik, Hill of Beath, if West join Talbot, Buffs etc would make it a far more appealing league.
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I don't disagree, in actual fact I agree 100% with this being what I would see as beneficial for non league football.

However, the LL reserve the right, as do the spfl clubs, to look after their position and status. They formed the league and fought hard to get where they are just now. Just because the ersjfa clubs (last year) and wrsjfa join (potentially next year) doesn't mean they should agree to, given that all those clubs turned their nose up at the idea 5 or 6 years ago. I guess what they have to weigh up is what they could lose in cash from potentially increased crowds etc if they choose not to open up the league, also how can they argue to get more promotion to the spfl if they themselves won't do it for the eos or wos leagues below?

It'll be an interesting piece of negotiation I suppose.

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3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Assuming what has been posted on here is accurate, hopefully the most controversial issue on the 11th is going to be the introduction of a second automatic promotion place from the sixth tier into the LL, so the west region and EoS champions don't have to play off against each other. The problem is that LL clubs will have to sign off on that before any change to the playoff format can be made, and turkeys...

The Lowland League should increase its membership from 16 to 18 clubs.  This would mean 34 league games per season, which  is perfectly achievable, as a stepping stone towards SPFL League Two membership, where the clubs already play 36 league games per season.  This would encourage an increase in the number of Tier 6 promotion spots, from 1 (currently) to 2, when (if) the West join next season.  This may encourage West clubs to join the pyramid, and reduce potential blockage at the top of the West, EoSL, and SoSL .

It would also be more likely to gain the support of the existing LL clubs, as the risk of relegation to Tier 6, would be reduced by 1 club, because (in most seasons),  the highest placed 16 LL clubs would not be relegated. Whereas, currently only 15 LL clubs are safe from relegation, or 14 if SPFL club 42 is relegated to the Lowland, and a Highland League club is promoted to the SPFL instead.

This would be a win-win situation, in my view.

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1 hour ago, Shannon said:
2 hours ago, G4Mac said:
It's is their right to do so. It becomes a question of preserving what you have right now vs what you could have (game wise, financially from higher crowds etc) if Talbot, Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Clydebank etc were in the LL.

I feel they will wait until the spfl open up a straight promotion spot. Again, their right to do so. That is the right you get by buying into something at the start and not joining just because it looks good 5 or 6 years later.

Surely opening up 2 or even 3 automatic spots from a 16 team Lowland league like most other leagues of the same size as in West Juniors have would mean a better standard of team in Lowland League more quickly then the SPFL League Two would then be more willing to open up automatic relegation too. Replacing the teams near the bottom of Lowland League with Boness, Camelon, Penicuik, Hill of Beath, if West join Talbot, Buffs etc would make it a far more appealing league.

Agreed - as per my post above

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The Lowland League should increase its membership from 16 to 18 clubs.  This would mean 34 league games per season, which  is perfectly achievable, as a stepping stone towards SPFL League Two membership, where the clubs already play 36 league games per season.  This would encourage an increase in the number of Tier 6 promotion spots, from 1 (currently) to 2, when (if) the West join next season.  This may encourage West clubs to join the pyramid, and reduce potential blockage at the top of the West, EoSL, and SoSL .
It would also be more likely to gain the support of the existing LL clubs, as the risk of relegation to Tier 6, would be reduced by 1 club, because (in most seasons),  the highest placed 16 LL clubs would not be relegated. Whereas, currently only 15 LL clubs are safe from relegation, or 14 if SPFL club 42 is relegated to the Lowland, and a Highland League club is promoted to the SPFL instead.
This would be a win-win situation, in my view.


HL has had real difficulty in getting a champion before the play-offs with 18 teams, I doubt the LL would want to be put in that position. Tho with floodlights becoming mandatory there is more scope for midweek games(again tho the HL has these and struggles)
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12 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I've already pointed out that they would still be the probable losers on the playoff given there would be two rather than one strong feeder to go along with the glorified pub league at tier 6. What more do you need than that to grasp that I am not suggesting the SoS be completely excluded?

Your first point was that you would like to see a 2nd automatic promotion spot so that the EoS and West Champions didn't have to face each other. Making it seem like you'd give both leagues automatic promotion without the need for a playoff.

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HL has had real difficulty in getting a champion before the play-offs with 18 teams, I doubt the LL would want to be put in that position. Tho with floodlights becoming mandatory there is more scope for midweek games(again tho the HL has these and struggles)
LL teams take part in more cups than HL clubs so 18 clubs playing 34 games is a non-starter.
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This is the approach adopted by tj and the sjfa consistently and it doesn't wash. No one mentioned an 18 team league structure when the sjfa were not interested. Now all of a sudden, because the sjfa want involved everyone has to:

- change league structures
- give up their tier 6 placing
- move a boundary line that's worked for years
- provide more promotion spots
- disregard a playoff system

And my personal favourite......

- allow for two structures to operate at the same level in the same geographical area regardless if there is already a recognised league structure for clubs in that area.

It still makes me giggle. Well some of it at least. The increase of promotion and relegation spots I'd like to see but the rest.....

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5 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:
6 hours ago, parsforlife said:


HL has had real difficulty in getting a champion before the play-offs with 18 teams, I doubt the LL would want to be put in that position. Tho with floodlights becoming mandatory there is more scope for midweek games(again tho the HL has these and struggles)

LL teams take part in more cups than HL clubs so 18 clubs playing 34 games is a non-starter.

No, it just means they might have to give up one or two of the cups.

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