Junior football, what is the future?

[glensmad]

18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Followers of these clubs can no longer just sit back and say "but we're a Junior club and always will be". Times have changed dramatically.

I couldn't agree more, but convincing the people in power at many clubs is still an issue.

[Dev]

7 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I couldn't agree more, but convincing the people in power at many clubs is still an issue.

Many a cautious committee is trying to come to terms with an awkward situation, and it can't be easy. Supporters are now quizzing them, which is a difficult pressure to deal with. They'll also have AGM's ahead and the old certainties may not be so certain any more.

[glensmad]

43 minutes ago, Dev said:

Many a cautious committee is trying to come to terms with an awkward situation, and it can't be easy. Supporters are now quizzing them, which is a difficult pressure to deal with. They'll also have AGM's ahead and the old certainties may not be so certain any more.

I really can't see what would change for 99% of the West clubs to at least join the pyramid.

They would still be playing against the same teams, in the same league structure, in front of the same crowds.

The only change would come for the really ambitious clubs who seek to gain a licence and get promoted from tier 6 to tier 5, i.e. winning what is currently the West Region Premiership. And to do that you need a bit of money behind you, as it means finishing a league season above the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Kilwinning Rangers, Pollok etc.

So for almost all of the clubs there is absolutely nothing to lose, but in my opinion plenty to gain in terms of marketing opportunities.

[GNU_Linux]

I really can't see what would change for 99% of the West clubs to at least join the pyramid.
They would still be playing against the same teams, in the same league structure, in front of the same crowds.
The only change would come for the really ambitious clubs who seek to gain a licence and get promoted from tier 6 to tier 5, i.e. winning what is currently the West Region Premiership. And to do that you need a bit of money behind you, as it means finishing a league season above the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Kilwinning Rangers, Pollok etc.
So for almost all of the clubs there is absolutely nothing to lose, but in my opinion plenty to gain in terms of marketing opportunities.

Part of the issue there's a mentality of american exceptionalism within junior football ie it's something unique that can't be offered anywhere else & to cease to be junior clubs would lose what makes thr football they play/watch what it is. In the case of the west this is down to in part senior non-league never really being a thing in this part of the world thus senior football is percieved to be SPFL football.

Of course in reality there's nothing overly unique about 'junior' football & the experience whether watching Whittlets, Wick, Whitehill or Whitewills is broadly the same when you look past gradeism. It's affordable football at a regional level by clubs & people representing their town, village or district of a city that survives off the back of hard working individuals & volunteers.

[Hillonearth]

3 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:

Part of the issue there's a mentality of american exceptionalism within junior football ie it's something unique that can't be offered anywhere else & to cease to be junior clubs would lose what makes thr football they play/watch what it is. In the case of the west this is down to in part senior non-league never really being a thing in this part of the world thus senior football is percieved to be SPFL football.

Of course in reality there's nothing overly unique about 'junior' football & the experience whether watching Whittlets, Wick, Whitehill or Whitewills is broadly the same when you look past gradeism. It's affordable football at a regional level by clubs & people representing their town, village or district of a city that survives off the back of hard working individuals & volunteers.

That's a good analogy with American exceptionalism, where they think that they live in the greatest country in the world when it demonstrably isn't due to the simple fact they've never been anywhere else.

Aside from Glasgow University being ritually horsed every year in the "big" Scottish, most haven't been exposed to non league senior football at all unlike out East where senior and junior existed cheek by jowl for many years. It's only now filtering through that the likes of Linlithgow Rose and Bo'ness United didn't magically stop being Linlithgow Rose and Bo'ness United by dint of switching leagues, while even the most dyed in the wool juniors club treasurers must be looking at Kelty and Bonnyrigg right now and beginning to wonder.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Hillonearth

[LongTimeLurker]

Maybe worth bearing in mind that pyramid entry was agreed at the SJFA's 2018 AGM, so the stumbling block now is more to do with blazer politics than persuading committee members at club level. Hopefully, something sensible gets proposed at next month's PWG meeting that breaks the logjam.

[Whitburn Vale]

Add to it the Bridge of Don debacle last weekend,fox holes etc,Fauldhouse Utd getting shafted.

The SJFA ar their best,absolute joke of an organisation.

With the above and the great results and performances of former junior sides in the William Hill Scottish cup,its wakey wakey time.

[glensmad]

13 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Maybe worth bearing in mind that pyramid entry was agreed at the SJFA's 2018 AGM, so the stumbling block now is more to do with blazer politics than persuading committee members at club level. Hopefully, something sensible gets proposed at next month's PWG meeting that breaks the logjam.

Which prompts the question again which I've seen asked a few times. Was the mandate given by the clubs to the SJFA that they must have all the affiliated teams move into the pyramid together, or was it simply to get the affiliated teams into the pyramid ? If it is the latter, then what is stopping the West Region being incorporated now ? If it is the former, then surely the North Region's statement of non-interest in joining the pyramid surely is a "game changer" which should prompt another vote ?

A second "Jexit" referendum perhaps ? 

[Dev]

3 hours ago, glensmad said:

Which prompts the question again which I've seen asked a few times. Was the mandate given by the clubs to the SJFA that they must have all the affiliated teams move into the pyramid together, or was it simply to get the affiliated teams into the pyramid ? If it is the latter, then what is stopping the West Region being incorporated now ? If it is the former, then surely the North Region's statement of non-interest in joining the pyramid surely is a "game changer" which should prompt another vote ?

A second "Jexit" referendum perhaps ? 

But remember it is those who choose the question (s) to be asked who control the direction of the answers. This is what happened last time.

Clubs will now make up their own minds. The SFA will have learned a thing or two as well. 

[Beenzon-Toste]

Which prompts the question again which I've seen asked a few times. Was the mandate given by the clubs to the SJFA that they must have all the affiliated teams move into the pyramid together, or was it simply to get the affiliated teams into the pyramid ? If it is the latter, then what is stopping the West Region being incorporated now ? If it is the former, then surely the North Region's statement of non-interest in joining the pyramid surely is a "game changer" which should prompt another vote ?
A second "Jexit" referendum perhaps ? 

According to rumours/reports from the recent West region general meeting, the West is seeking entry for next season. This is supposedly supported by the East and North regions. The EOSL and the LL is also "allegedly" in favour of this, although they have changed their position on the Pyramid situation before, so I'd not bank on it remaining so.
The East Region entry will take longer to secure and negotiations will have to continue. Once the West Region is in, however, the balance of power might change and the negotiations for the East Region might become more favourable to them.

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

According to rumours/reports from the recent West region general meeting, the West is seeking entry for next season. This is supposedly supported by the East and North regions. The EOSL and the LL is also "allegedly" in favour of this, although they have changed their position on the Pyramid situation before, so I'd not bank on it remaining so.
The East Region entry will take longer to secure and negotiations will have to continue. Once the West Region is in, however, the balance of power might change and the negotiations for the East Region might become more favourable to them.

why would it change. They have always said for the west to come in that has never changed. They will still block the East from getting in.  ersjfa can't join as sfa aren't happy about their 2 leagues of 10 format

[Ranaldo Bairn]

is it not to do with overlapping geographical areas they are (correctly) unhappy?

[Beenzon-Toste]

why would it change. They have always said for the west to come in that has never changed. They will still block the East from getting in.  ersjfa can't join as sfa aren't happy about their 2 leagues of 10 format

I am aware of what has been said by the EOSL.
I'm just wary about whether it will remain that way.

[Beenzon-Toste]

is it not to do with overlapping geographical areas they are (correctly) unhappy?

'Overlapping geographical areas' wasn't a problem until the EOSL became 39 teams.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

Could it be something to do with the mooted idea of overlapping geographical areas having two separate play off paths towards the LL?

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

is it not to do with overlapping geographical areas they are (correctly) unhappy?

The EoS are the senior league in the east of Scotland in the Pyramid at tier 6 and 7 (and maybe tier 8 next season), they quite rightly maintain that there is therefore no need for a second, competitor league covering the same area at the same level.  I understand the SJFA/ERJFA have been told by the SFA to come up with a solution that would be acceptable to PWG.  The inclusion of the West Region next season wouldn't change that position.

Mind you, with recent goings on, another few clubs from the Juniors joining the EoS for next season is entirely possible.

The EoS have no objections to a west league coming on board next season, in fact it would be welcomed.

 

[glensmad]

34 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

According to rumours/reports from the recent West region general meeting, the West is seeking entry for next season. This is supposedly supported by the East and North regions. The EOSL and the LL is also "allegedly" in favour of this, although they have changed their position on the Pyramid situation before, so I'd not bank on it remaining so.
The East Region entry will take longer to secure and negotiations will have to continue. Once the West Region is in, however, the balance of power might change and the negotiations for the East Region might become more favourable to them.

That may well be the case, I wasn't at that meeting and haven't received any feedback from it.

However, as long as the SJFA position is "all in or none in", then the West Region are stuck where we are. My question, though, is to ask if that was what the mandate to the SJFA actually was, or was it simply to get the clubs into the pyramid without any stipulations on how or when or in what order ? I genuinely don't know. But if it was an "all in or none in" mandate, then the withdrawal of the North Region from that scenario is surely a "material change" to the circumstances which would prompt another vote to change the mandate. (I know, I sound like Nicola Sturgeon.  )

[Dev]

10 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

15 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

is it not to do with overlapping geographical areas they are (correctly) unhappy?

'Overlapping geographical areas' wasn't a problem until the EOSL became 39 teams.

If I remember correctly an old Post from FairWeatherFan showed that from the outset of the Pyramid the two eastern leagues were supposed to merge. However, the existing Senior league would be the priority league, or something along those lines EOSL.

Of course the EOSL has since grown stronger and the Eastern Juniors has become weaker than it used to be.  

[LongTimeLurker]

Sounds promising that the WRSJFA may be entering before anything gets sorted in the east and north regions and nobody appears to be opposing it if Beenzon-Toste's information is accurate. Hopefully common sense has prevailed. Would have thought that the eventual solution in the east will probably have to revolve around the ERSJFA feeding into the EoS in some way rather than the LL, if there isn't an effective merger south of the Tay through having more clubs joining the EoS next season. Will be interesting to see what if anything happens with the Tay Bridge boundary, which is the other issue that needs to be addressed.

Edited November 27, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[glensmad]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

Sounds promising that the WRSJFA may be entering before anything gets sorted in the east and north regions and nobody appears to be opposing it if Beenzon-Toste's information is accurate. Hopefully common sense has prevailed.

You'd have thought if that was the case then that major change in position would have been mentioned in the minutes of the recent West Region general meeting.