Junior football, what is the future?

[Guest]

It amazes me that almost a year and a half on and we are still going round and round in the same circles. The same artificial divide and the same questions regarding people trying to destroy the sjfa.

What cannot be misunderstood is that the associations within the current pyramid worked hard to get there, they have sacrificed their own set ups to get the LL up and running 5 years ago when the sjfa declined as they felt they had a better product. What they are standing for right now (correctly in my view) is that they will not simply take step to the side just because the sjfa want involved.

Those posters who want the sjfa in are forgetting that the other associations don't have to take that side step just because the sjfa now want a seat at the table, particularly in the east and Tayside.

Most are happy to get the sjfa involved, more so in the West, but not by bending over for everything the sjfa want. When you are joining something sometimes you have to accept the terms you are provided.

[LongTimeLurker]

All fine and good, but bear in mind that the SFA officeholders involved seemed to have no issue with the SJFA getting pretty much what they wanted in the PWG minutes, so this is mainly about the EoS at this point rather than the SFA, SoS or HL. I suggested a page or two back that a possible compromise would be that the two superleague divisions of the ERSJFA could enter as what would effectively be tier 7 conferences (rather than being at tier 6 like the WRSJFA would be) and would then feed into the EoS premier rather than the LL. Would you see that as being a problem? Can you envisage any way that the ERSJFA can enter the pyramid and remain part of the SJFA, if that is their wish?

Edited September 27, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Guest]

All fine and good, but bear in mind that the SFA officeholders involved seemed to have no issue with the SJFA getting pretty much what they wanted in the PWG minutes, so this is mainly about the EoS at this point rather than the SFA, SoS or HL. I suggested a page or two back that a possible compromise would be that the two superleague divisions of the ERSJFA could enter as what would effectively be tier 7 conferences (rather than being at tier 6 like the WRSJFA would be) and would then feed into the EoS premier rather than the LL. Would you see that as being a problem? Can you envisage any way that the ERSJFA can enter the pyramid and remain part of the SJFA, if that is their wish?

You continue to use old evidence prior to the eos meeting where the sfa and their apparent stance was shot down in flames.

 

The sfa wanted to shoe horn the sjfa In with a batshit crazy idea that gave the sfa ceo the power to decide which team would be promoted to the LL..... It was never going to go that way and the two gentleman from the sfa left the eos meeting with their tale between their legs.

 

But please dont let the facts derail a good story or narrative regarding the sfa and their apparent backing of the tj led sjfa steam train.

 

The sjfa in the east should join at the bottom of the eos. They have had 2 years to come on board within a conference structure. The eos is all set up to go to straight divisions next season. Why should they delay that move just because the sjfa want involved? Delaying their own set up in order to allow another on board at the same level and operating as a seperate entity?

[Salvo Montalbano]

All fine and good, but bear in mind that the SFA officeholders involved seemed to have no issue with the SJFA getting pretty much what they wanted in the PWG minutes, so this is mainly about the EoS at this point rather than the SFA, SoS or HL. I suggested a page or two back that a possible compromise would be that the two superleague divisions of the ERSJFA could enter as what would effectively be tier 7 conferences (rather than being at tier 6 like the WRSJFA would be) and would then feed into the EoS premier rather than the LL. Would you see that as being a problem? Can you envisage any way that the ERSJFA can enter the pyramid and remain part of the SJFA, if that is their wish?

That sounds fine in principle but where would relegated teams go from the EoS Premier - would only teams who came up from the East Juniors be allowed to rejoin that league, or would there be a geographic element? Given some of the rhetoric from East Junior committee rooms, would a former Junior club (e.g. Crossgates) be accepted in that league and would they want to be part of that same set up that bas criticised them? Would a team with no Junior connections be allowed into this division? Will clubs be happy if a Coldstream or a Berwick ended up in that league when many of the clubs wanted regional leagues due to travelling concerns? Which clubs (if any) would be eligible for the Junior Cup if it remained a thing? While your solution looks like it gets these clubs on board, it still keeps am artificial divide and also doesn't take into account those clubs who maybe don't want to join the pyramid. That's not forgetting the Tayside issue. And for what? Keeping the Junior "name"? Keeping some blazers in a job? I really don't understand why there is the need for that.

[Black & Red Socks]

All fine and good, but bear in mind that the SFA officeholders involved seemed to have no issue with the SJFA getting pretty much what they wanted in the PWG minutes, so this is mainly about the EoS at this point rather than the SFA, SoS or HL. I suggested a page or two back that a possible compromise would be that the two superleague divisions of the ERSJFA could enter as what would effectively be tier 7 conferences (rather than being at tier 6 like the WRSJFA would be) and would then feed into the EoS premier rather than the LL. Would you see that as being a problem? Can you envisage any way that the ERSJFA can enter the pyramid and remain part of the SJFA, if that is their wish?

You endlessly peddle the same old stuff from which you erroneously derive your skewed opinions that you then put forth as some sort of established fact. No matter how many times you do so, you will still be misrepresenting where we are and how we got here.

 

Your suggestion of the ERSJFA at Tier 7 presents no different a problem as the ERSJFA at Tier 6, the geographical overlap still provides for a huge wedge driven between neighbouring teams in the east for no good reason other than to maintain a ‘grade’ of football. Why? It made no sense when first mooted, makes no sense now and will make no sense at any time in the future. Sadly, the simple truth of this will continue to elude you and you’ll be peddling it all again soon enough.

 

 

 

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, Black & Red Socks said:

You endlessly peddle the same old stuff from which you erroneously derive your skewed opinions that you then put forth as some sort of established fact. No matter how many times you do so, you will still be misrepresenting where we are and how we got here.

 

Your suggestion of the ERSJFA at Tier 7 presents no different a problem as the ERSJFA at Tier 6, the geographical overlap still provides for a huge wedge driven between neighbouring teams in the east for no good reason other than to maintain a ‘grade’ of football. Why? It made no sense when first mooted, makes no sense now and will make no sense at any time in the future. Sadly, the simple truth of this will continue to elude you and you’ll be peddling it all again soon enough.

 

 

 

In my view, the 'Lurker' keeps peddling "the same old stuff", because he knows that it won't be agreed, and that  it will therefore achieve another delay in the West Juniors joining the pyramid in 2020/21.  A clever tactic on his part, perhaps ? Probably best not to encourage him..  

 

[cmontheloknow]

Open to the floor, Monty Python style: what has the SJFA ever done for us?

[LongTimeLurker]

9 hours ago, Black & Red Socks said:

...Your suggestion of the ERSJFA at Tier 7 presents no different a problem as the ERSJFA at Tier 6, the geographical overlap still provides for a huge wedge driven between neighbouring teams in the east for no good reason other than to maintain a ‘grade’ of football. Why? ...

All the grade basically does in reality is run a national cup competition. Issues like player registration and referee appointments are already handled by the SFA so junior football is nothing like as separate from the seniors as some people like to think.

 I don't see a compromise scenario having some clubs in parallel conferences at tier 7 in the east playing in the junior cup and some in the south challenge cup as an insirmountable barrier to progress. It would sort itself out over time.

Finding a bizarre but workable formula like that and proposing it at a PWG meeting would be a good way for the SFA to smoke out people's true motivations including Tom Johnston's, who is probably all too happy right now to push something he doesn't really want because he knows the EoS is going to block it.

[Guest]

Open to the floor, Monty Python style: what has the SJFA ever done for us?

To be fair to the sjfa, say 10 to 15 years ago, they had the strongest non league set up covering the LL area and their product was good. They were also pretty good to their clubs within the context of what was expected of an association at that time.

 

The problem is that times have moved on, expectations of an association and the way it runs have increased astronomically and the sjfa have kept running as they were, without any advancements or attempts to modernise their practice. This has held back the clubs they are elected to represent and they don't seem to know (or choose not to) how to change things up or adapt to get better for their clubs. (prime example is the 'all in' mandate that became the 'east and west in' mandate and now appears to be dead in the water, delaying the west clubs having access to the pyramid..... I hope it isn't but it isn't looking clever.)

 

[FairWeatherFan]

7 hours ago, Robert James said:

In my view, the 'Lurker' keeps peddling "the same old stuff", because he knows that it won't be agreed, and that  it will therefore achieve another delay in the West Juniors joining the pyramid in 2020/21.  A clever tactic on his part, perhaps ? Probably best not to encourage him..  

 

Don't think they hold any position within the Junior game. Not sure how an opinion can be a clever tactic.

And the basic principle is correct. If the all-in approach had happened all the non-league pyramid in 2019 would probably have the HL, LL, EoSFL, SoSFL, NCL, West Region, East Region and North Region within it. The SFA would be overseeing all Tier 6 leagues as that was a point that the senior leagues pursued relentlessly. The boundary issue would have been settled in some fashion to incorporate all those leagues. The Junior Cup would have been streamlined to work around the senior calendar. So the importance of the SJFA would take a hit both in governance and financially.

Roll on 2020 and a bunch of 'junior' clubs become SFA members and it only gets worse for the SJFA.

Would mergers happen? Probably. People seem to forget that the East, Tayside and Fife got together to form the East Region set up less than 20 years ago. Then in that 20 years they continued to restructure to increase the number of region wide clubs. The EoS and East Region sat down together to discuss things between themselves outwith the PWG. Nothing came of it, but apparently that ability to listen and consider their options will magically evaporate on entering the pyramid.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

20 hours ago, Ped said:

Isn’t that basically what some sjfa and some deluded posters are asking with east juniors getting slotted in alongside an already established EOS league they will be the new teams to pyramid in that area should surely be slotted in underneath the already established league 

The problem you have is that there is a power struggle.
The ERJFA want a separate association in at tier 6 along side the EOS.
The EOS and the SOS do not want the ERJFA to come in along side them, quite rightly so. 

Think of the 28 teams, I believe who came across from ERJFA to join the EOS a few years ago, quite a few top teams I may add and now only to find out that after 2 years, in their eyes, sub standard teams, (no sorry not sub standard, I meant lower standard), from a league they left will be joining them in at tier 6. So obviously none of them will be happy, well I don't believe so.

I do not want another East association alongside the EOS, why, not because I'm from the West, I just think it makes sense to have a NOS, WOS, EOS and a SOS at tier 6.
We all know,, well hoping and expecting the WRJFA to fill the void for the WOS.
In the North, think it was a year ago, maybe longer, the NRJFA said to the PWG that their members don't wanna make up a NOS so stopped with negotiations, but that may change if the whole WRJFA joined.

 

No matter whatever the way the regions are structured you will obviously have weaker regions than others. If it did form this way, N,S,E, W, then from what I gather on here and outside most think the SOS are the weakest association due the their member teams.
So again with that in mind the SOS association right now are happy to stay where they are.

There is only one way I'd have the ERJFA come in separately would be due to large numbers including the EOS,
For example if the West have 60 teams in their association, the South had 20 teams in their association, the north had 20 teams in their association and the two combined East associations have about 140 give or take 20.  If this was so I'd have a total reshuffle of the EOS and the joining ERJFA merging together then split it in two so there's a North EOS and a South EOS. but the North EOS would have to be definitive who they are feeding into, which is LL or HL.  That's the SFA fault from history past they should have just got the border sorted throughout the country from the start.

I believe piecing everything together on here, well the true parts and other information outside of here that Right now the SJFA want the three junior associations to join the seniors as an 'All - in' but the EOS and SOS knocked this back but then right after said they both have 'no objection' to the WRJFA joining straight away as the new WOS but the SJFA didn't inform the WRJFA members of such, they just let them all know that its a no go to join the seniors as a whole.  The reason is, the SJFA don't want to lose one association at a time because it leaves them with one less bargaining chip in all these crappy power struggles.

 

###   interestingly enough spoke to a former pro youth coach and who played with Auchinleck Talbot to get his take on it all and he says team like Auchinleck who have dominated Junior football would not want to join their seniors just to fight out eventually it in division 2 meaning it gives them less chance of winning many trophies, the fans could not handle that, that's why he thinks Auchinleck would like to stay in the juniors and I suppose a few junior teams who are in with a shout of trophies in the junior ranks and lessening their chances if moving up to a harder level once they won their league  ###

Edited September 28, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Don't think they hold any position within the Junior game. Not sure how an opinion can be a clever tactic.

And the basic principle is correct. If the all-in approach had happened all the non-league pyramid in 2019 would probably have the HL, LL, EoSFL, SoSFL, NCL, West Region, East Region and North Region within it. The SFA would be overseeing all Tier 6 leagues as that was a point that the senior leagues pursued relentlessly. The boundary issue would have been settled in some fashion to incorporate all those leagues. The Junior Cup would have been streamlined to work around the senior calendar. So the importance of the SJFA would take a hit both in governance and financially.

Roll on 2020 and a bunch of 'junior' clubs become SFA members and it only gets worse for the SJFA.

Would mergers happen? Probably. People seem to forget that the East, Tayside and Fife got together to form the East Region set up less than 20 years ago. Then in that 20 years they continued to restructure to increase the number of region wide clubs. The EoS and East Region sat down together to discuss things between themselves outwith the PWG. Nothing came of it, but apparently that ability to listen and consider their options will magically evaporate on entering the pyramid.

Very informative.

If the north Tayside and the North juniors merged, with one superleague and regional leagues below at tier 7 and 8, it would contribute towards a solution for the East and North Juniors. To me it would be common sense, as the travelling between Aberdeenshire/North East, and Dundee/Angus is much easier than it was in the past.

I also remember the intense  Aberdeen v Dundee/Dundee United 'local derbies'/rivalries in the old Scottish League. 

[PastyMan]

There doesn't appear to be any urgency in re-convening the PWG to address the issues, particularly the Lowland/Highland split. After swallowing TJ's dog's dinner "done deal" and then got comprehensively schooled at the EoS meeting,  does anyone else get the impression that the SFA have lost interest in the pyramid for now?

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, PastyMan said:

There doesn't appear to be any urgency in re-convening the PWG to address the issues, particularly the Lowland/Highland split. After swallowing TJ's dog's dinner "done deal" and then got comprehensively schooled at the EoS meeting,  does anyone else get the impression that the SFA have lost interest in the pyramid for now?

I certainly don't think it has ever been on their list of priorities. The SFA and SJFA can get away with being inactive at this point as both sides will probably be saying they're only a couple of months into trialling the new rules they have to abide by.

As soon as there are any noises about clubs moving leagues i'm sure they'll be back at panic stations.

[ibenji]

What teams have made some indication they want to go to the pyramid from the West?

[GNU_Linux]

What teams have made some indication they want to go to the pyramid from the West?

Outwith the survey that was done by the SJFA the only one I know of is Clydebank. The pyramid was also on the agenda of a Kilwinning Rangers meeting earlier this year iirc.

Of course behind the scenes there may be clubs taking steps/actions in private.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Of course behind the scenes there may be clubs taking steps/actions in private.

There are.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

39 minutes ago, ibenji said:

What teams have made some indication they want to go to the pyramid from the West?

 

26 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Outwith the survey that was done by the SJFA the only one I know of is Clydebank. The pyramid was also on the agenda of a Kilwinning Rangers meeting earlier this year iirc.

Of course behind the scenes there may be clubs taking steps/actions in private.

Clydebank definitely yes.
I'm sure there are quite a few but if for example 1 supporter of a team who have 300 supporters of a team cannot be the spokesperson on here for them lol, it would be scaremongering and windups galore.  Suppose only the official statements from the club/committee would be the best way to find out.  Think in realty most don't want to show their cards incase it doesn't materialize.

[Edgar81]

How about taking the results of the last 10 years in Scottish football (all of it - SPFL, HL, LL, EOS, SOS, Juniors etc. - including cups), running a certain number of iterations using an Elo-like rating system and see what you get? Based on the output you could build leagues (from a certain level - perhaps below HL/LL) based on real team strength and avoid rugby scores. Just a thought from someone outside Scotland. 

[LongTimeLurker]

Probably not a bad way to go about it but to paraphrase a line in Goodfellas, it's amongst the Scots real mince and tatties stuff. What it all boils down to is league and association officeholders keeping hold of as much power as possible, so anything that emerges is likely to be a compromise that keeps all the blazers reasonably happy on that score or there will have to be a mass exodus of clubs from at least one of the leagues involved.