Junior football, what is the future?

[Cyclizine]

It makes perfect sense for D&G to be included in the west. If a Dumfries club joined the juniors, they'd be admitted to the west region. There's already Ayrshire and Lanarkshire clubs in the SoSFL and D&G clubs in the juniors. I'd say SoSFL and old district level crowds aren't too dissimilar anyway.

[FairWeatherFan]

37 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

 I suspect SoSFL would not be as open to this as EoSFL were, mind.

Don't know unless you try. They've been pretty open so far and said yes to everything so far.

Remember East Kilbride were joining before there was a pyramid.

You've also got Gretna and Dalbeattie likely coming back in the next few years. That's an 18 team league with more than 4 cups to participate in. So there's changes coming.

You also don't have the same historical ties in that more than half the league have been there for less than 20 years.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

A mass application to the SoSFL by WRJFA clubs in a similar way to what happened in the east is the most straightforward way to deal with this....

Although the precedent has been set by the EoS that they could run parallel conferences for a season to accommodate all the new teams, it's not so obvious what D&G clubs get out of it. There's a reason why they are not objecting to the emergence of a west feeder. The SoS comes across as being a local league for local people. Think there's much more chance that the EoS would be willing to do something active in the west to get a west feeder going given they clearly have an axe to grind with the SJFA over east region entry at the moment and already gave deferred entry to Clydebank in the past. There was also the EoS(west) thing that appeared on Kilwinning's website at one point. What's not clear is how the SFA would react to something like that.

[jimbaxters]

How do you boys get any work done?

[Black & Red Socks]

1 hour ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

That old chestnut again.
Ok, I got it wrong.
There, I said it, does that make you happy.

I have no 'source' other than my own viewpoint, unlike your hangers-on, that believe that the gospel according to Burnie is the only way.

The EOSL is still fearful of allowing any of the Juniors access to the Pyramid and that includes the West despite their seemingly welcoming platitudes to the contrary.
They lived in the shadows of the SJFA for decades and now that they're in a position of power they want the SJFA to suffer.
If that is not the case, then why don't we get the WRSJFA in for next season and continue to look for a solution for the rest.

This is exactly the proposal - apparently made from the floor - that every single EoSFL club representative supported at the General Meeting attended by Rod Petrie and Ian Maxwell, as did the top table. Every. Single. One. You'd have to ask the SFA and, in particular, the SJFA why this didn't then come to pass.

[ian44wood]

18 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Although the precedent has been set by the EoS that they could run parallel conferences for a season to accommodate all the new teams, it's not so obvious what D&G clubs get out of it. There's a reason why they are not objecting to the emergence of a west feeder. The SoS comes across as being a local league for local people. Think there's much more chance that the EoS would be willing to do something active in the west to get a west feeder going given they clearly have an axe to grind with the SJFA over east region entry at the moment and already gave deferred entry to Clydebank in the past. There was also the EoS(west) thing that appeared on Kilwinning's website at one point. What's not clear is how the SFA would react to something like that.

comedy again

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

Thing is, it wouldn't just be six clubs who would join the SOS. As we saw in the east, once you get a few clubs moving over the dominoes begin to fall as clubs want to remain with their rivals and avoid being left in a weaker league.

If six clubs - e.g. Auchinleck, Cumnock, Clydebank, Kilwinning, Petershill, Rutherglen, who either have or are getting floodlights and are close to a licence - joined the SOS, it would cause other clubs to follow. Glenafton would surely move since their two closest clubs have left, and then there's also ambitious clubs like Darvel who would try and steal a march on others.

Any recent updates regarding the six clubs you mention :  Cumnock and Petershill (licence applications submitted), Clydebank ('new' ground with floodlights), Talbot (proposed floodlights), Kilwinning  (new ground and floodlights), and Rutherglen Floodlight proposals) ?  It  is possible/probable that these clubs could be 'preparing' to join the pyramid, with or without an SJFA 'deal' .

Maybe also  Darvel and  Glenafton as you suggest ?  Possibly Benburb as well ?

Has anyone picked up any pyramid  interest (eg plans to install floodlights)  from the likes of Beith, Pollock, Irvine Meadow, Rob Roy, Girvan, or A N Others ? 

[superbigal]

If im not mistaken the sos league is currently at capacity as required by the sfa of 16 teams.

Not sure if say 6 big juniors applied how they could keep 16 intact.

Of course that 16 team expectation may just be another thing made up on the hoof by the sfa.

Seems to be gospel for the sjfa east and any prospect of pyramid entry though.

 

 

[Dev]

Uncle Bob, clubs don't need to be licenced to join Senior leagues so there's no real obstacle for any clubs, Juniors or otherwise, joining next season.

Clubs which choose to pursue Licencing can do so at their own pace after making the decision to move. 

Also, non-licenced clubs in the SoS and the EoS still have a way to quality for the Scottish FA Cup through their own Cups for non-licenced teams, so that mitigates the loss of the chance to gain entry by winning a Junior top division or winning the SJFA Cup. 

I doubt that it will be just existing Juniors which are considering a move up to the Senior leagues.

[Salvo Montalbano]

Just in case you missed it on some of the other 870 + pages. Some of the clubs still in the SJFA would prefer to stay within that Association. It has also been stated that joining the Pyramid will change nothing for the majority of the clubs. Leaving the SJFA to join the EOSL surely throws that statement out the window.

If they think joining the pyramid will change nothing and so don't want to join the pyramid, then fine - I've always said that clubs shouldn't be forced into the pyramid if they don't want to be involved - but surely that would leave clubs with a choice of either 1. Stay Junior and not join the pyramid or 2. Join the pyramid by joining the EoSL? That would then let the West come in as a whole (if every club wants to) or a WoSL to get set up with the remaining clubs who don't want to be part of the pyramid playing in a reduced West Juniors. I really don't understand why this hasn't happened yet to be honest.

One more thing, why are some clubs saying that they would prefer to be part of the SJFA? Given that they could be members (full or associate) of the SFA and wouldn't have to pay tribute for the blazers salaries etc. what possible benefit do they see by staying "Junior" (sic) in a Senior League?

[Vollyman]

The only people TJ has fooled are fools, but there are enough of them for him to have succeeded admirably. I now feel we should just accept that "Juniors in at Tier Six" is dead, the WOSL is dead, and nothing will change. Which is fine, that's what a great many people want. The only further action I would take would be to end the Scottish Cup places for Junior teams. Why should they take places away from the SFA's own members? Talbot are quite good at playing (admittedly eye-bleeding) football in cup ties, if they want to prove they are "bigger" than all those "diddy" clubs (now where have I heard that before?) in the EOS and the Lowland League, they know what to do, but there is no reason why they should have it handed to them at others' expense.

SFA member clubs automatically enter the William Hill Scottish Cup provided they have the necessary licence no SFA club is excluded because of the participation of junior or amateur clubs

[GNU_Linux]

11 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

 

 

If they think joining the pyramid will change nothing and so don't want to join the pyramid, then fine - I've always said that clubs shouldn't be forced into the pyramid if they don't want to be involved - but surely that would leave clubs with a choice of either 1. Stay Junior and not join the pyramid or 2. Join the pyramid by joining the EoSL? That would then let the West come in as a whole (if every club wants to) or a WoSL to get set up with the remaining clubs who don't want to be part of the pyramid playing in a reduced West Juniors. I really don't understand why this hasn't happened yet to be honest.

One more thing, why are some clubs saying that they would prefer to be part of the SJFA? Given that they could be members (full or associate) of the SFA and wouldn't have to pay tribute for the blazers salaries etc. what possible benefit do they see by staying "Junior" (sic) in a Senior League?

There's a way of thinking that being 'junior' somehow gives people the football they watch & it's culture something that can't be found anywhere else. To change that in this line of thinking those things would be lost if they were no longer junior whether outside of the pyramid or in all but name within the pyramid. I've compared it before the American exceptionalism i.e. thinking you have something unique & distinct but in reality it's no different from something else equitable, in this case non-league football outwith the junior umbrella.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

...One more thing, why are some clubs saying that they would prefer to be part of the SJFA? Given that they could be members (full or associate) of the SFA and wouldn't have to pay tribute for the blazers salaries etc. what possible benefit do they see by staying "Junior" (sic) in a Senior League?

People tend to be creatures of habit, which is why it's easiest just to slot all the existing leagues in as the starting point. The main function of the SJFA as an association is to run the junior cup. Most of the other things that directly affect clubs are already being done by the three regions or the SFA. In the event the three regions did get to join and keep the SJFA intact, it would effectively only be running one cup competition in a similar manner to the special associations that have been set up over the years to run cup competitions that involve more than one junior region. That would quickly turn it into a quirky irrelevance, and there would soon be proposals to combine the junior cup with the south challenge cup and merge the two leagues in the east.

[FairWeatherFan]

36 minutes ago, superbigal said:

If im not mistaken the sos league is currently at capacity as required by the sfa of 16 teams.

Not sure if say 6 big juniors applied how they could keep 16 intact.

Of course that 16 team expectation may just be another thing made up on the hoof by the sfa.

Seems to be gospel for the sjfa east and any prospect of pyramid entry though.

 

 

Well if you recall Maxwell's email at the end of last season he thinks the SOSFL has 18 teams in it.

[Beenzon-Toste]

This is exactly the proposal - apparently made from the floor - that every single EoSFL club representative supported at the General Meeting attended by Rod Petrie and Ian Maxwell, as did the top table. Every. Single. One. You'd have to ask the SFA and, in particular, the SJFA why this didn't then come to pass.

It's easy to show support for something when you know that it cannot happen. It makes you look good to those outwith the process. Meanwhile, inwardly you're smiling, because you know that the SJFA couldn't go for this at the time because it meant leaving the ERSJFA on the outside looking in.
What I'm suggesting should happen now is that the ERSJFA should recognize that they are the stumbling block at present and should inform the SJFA that they wish to withdraw their interest at present to allow for the integration of the WRSJFA into the Pyramid.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Beenzon-Toste said:

It's easy to show support for something when you know that it cannot happen. It makes you look good to those outwith the process. Meanwhile, inwardly you're smiling, because you know that the SJFA couldn't go for this at the time because it meant leaving the ERSJFA on the outside looking in.
What I'm suggesting should happen now is that the ERSJFA should recognize that they are the stumbling block at present and should inform the SJFA that they wish to withdraw their interest at present to allow for the integration of the WRSJFA into the Pyramid.

The NRJFA were going to be left on the outside looking in if the proposal had been accepted, so it's irrelevant.  The only thing stopping the WRJFA being in right now was the SJFA.

[craigkillie]

42 minutes ago, superbigal said:

If im not mistaken the sos league is currently at capacity as required by the sfa of 16 teams.

Not sure if say 6 big juniors applied how they could keep 16 intact.

Of course that 16 team expectation may just be another thing made up on the hoof by the sfa.

Seems to be gospel for the sjfa east and any prospect of pyramid entry though.

 

 

The SoSL would have to split into two divisions (or conferences), just as any other league would do if it had too many teams.

[superbigal]

The SoSL would have to split into two divisions (or conferences), just as any other league would do if it had too many teams.

Yes and a league 16 and 6 would look pretty odd.The conferences option the eos used I think was only allowed for the 1 season to get a 16 team top league in play. If the sos stayed at say 22 members conference would not solve anything.

I think the sos would need at least 10 new applicants to actually alllow any expansion.

 

[Beenzon-Toste]

It's easy to show support for something when you know that it cannot happen. It makes you look good to those outwith the process. Meanwhile, inwardly you're smiling, because you know that the SJFA couldn't go for this at the time because it meant leaving the ERSJFA on the outside looking in.
What I'm suggesting should happen now is that the ERSJFA should recognize that they are the stumbling block at present and should inform the SJFA that they wish to withdraw their interest at present to allow for the integration of the WRSJFA into the Pyramid.

I'd even go as far as suggesting that now might be as good a time as any to resurrect the so called 'SOOPER-DOOPER' League Idea.
The WRSJFA and the ERSJFA form a league at tier 6 with tiers 7, 8, and 9 feeders below that.

[Beenzon-Toste]

The NRJFA were going to be left on the outside looking in if the proposal had been accepted, so it's irrelevant.  The only thing stopping the WRJFA being in right now was the SJFA.

That red herring again.
The NRSJFA chose to stay outside and removed themselves from the negotiations. Which is exactly what I'm suggesting should happen with the ERSJFA.