Junior football, what is the future?

[LongTimeLurker]

The NRSJFA, SJFA and SFA have never stated that's the case, as far as I'm aware. That's only the HL secretary's spin on what happened in a meeting and nothing more. As things stand the way into the HL is by application and they have potential vacancies and won't split into two divisions until they have more than 20 clubs. If there are no licensed clubs in the NRSJFA besides Banks o'Dee and no appetite to get licensed on the part of those other junior clubs there was no need to start promotion from a tier 6 and the meeting was a waste of time. If the other two superleagues get sorted then the north can easily be declared tier 6 on paper by the SFA with nothing actually changing until such time as there is an actual practical need for promotion and relegation due to there being more licensed clubs than potential places in the HL. The north is a red herring in all of this.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The NRSJFA, SJFA and SFA have never stated that's the case, as far as I'm aware. That's only the HL secretary's spin on what happened in a meeting and nothing more. As things stand the way into the HL is by application and they have potential vacancies and won't split into two divisions until they have more than 20 clubs. If there are no licensed clubs in the NRSJFA besides Banks o'Dee and no appetite to get licensed on the part of those other junior clubs there was no need to start promotion from a tier 6 and the meeting was a waste of time. If the other two superleagues get sorted then the north can easily be declared tier 6 on paper by the SFA with nothing actually changing until such time as there is an actual practical need for promotion and relegation due to there being more licensed clubs than potential places in the HL. The north is a red herring in all of this.

Oh c'mon FFS, the HL are hardly going to lie about it.  It's also been the feedback from PWG that the NRJFA aren't interested.  Nobody at the NRJFA or SJFA are coming out and claiming otherwise, and BoD turned down the HL.  The evidence is pretty clear

So we're back to the SJFA being selective about all-in entry.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The NRSJFA, SJFA and SFA have never stated that's the case, as far as I'm aware. That's only the HL secretary's spin on what happened in a meeting and nothing more. As things stand the way into the HL is by application and they have potential vacancies and won't split into two divisions until they have more than 20 clubs. If there are no licensed clubs in the NRSJFA besides Banks o'Dee and no appetite to get licensed on the part of those other junior clubs there was no need to start promotion from a tier 6 and the meeting was a waste of time. If the other two superleagues get sorted then the north can easily be declared tier 6 on paper by the SFA with nothing actually changing until such time as there is an actual practical need for promotion and relegation due to there being more licensed clubs than potential places in the HL. The north is a red herring in all of this.

It's a quote by someone directly involved it has more credence than anything suggested on here and is supported by the knowledge that from November to present day there have been no further discussions.

As for the North being a red herring by virtue of the Highland League being open to application. The Lowland League was open to applications years before it maxed out at 16 clubs.

Even while open to application, the EoS & SoS had agreed tier 6 status and promotion/relegation rules between the 3 leagues. The North appear to have simply walked away. 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Not at all clear that's the case despite what gets posted on here. If the mandate given to the SJFA officeholders at the 2018 AGM was to get the entire association in at tier 6 (where the three superleagues are concerned) it's not safe to assume that they are able to do it one region at a time. If all that was provided at the 2019 AGM was an update on progress, and the clubs didn't query what was happening and tell the SJFA officeholders to get the west region in pronto, it could easily be another year of trying to drive a square peg into a round hole.

That's the point it shouldn't have been left till the agm to give an update.

In March the West Region had clubs declaring licensing applications and dealt with the split Premiership proposal in order to fit into the pyramid playoff calendar. All of that was for nowt as it was already known the all in approach wasn't going to pass in time for 2019-20.

If an update/egm was given then with knowledge provided that the West could enter on its own, it might well have happened.

Why it didn't? Maybe more than Glenrothes and Kinnoull would have moved to the EoS so they could access the pyramid this season and the SJFA would have lost more than 2 members.

[LongTimeLurker]

My understanding of where things stand is that the NRSJFA clubs see the pyramid as something that doesn't really affect them directly because none of them (Banks O'Dee excepted obviously) are trying to get licensed (as with the NCL, they are more like amateur teams in central belt terms than genuine junior clubs) , but at the same time they are not going to stand in the way of the other two regions entering so will tag along in some way on paper at least, if necessary. It's that last bit where I think Burnie_man is going a step too far based on the available info.

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's the point it shouldn't have been left till the agm to give an update....

But it was and nobody seems to have rocked the boat over what was happening, so that's a recipe for going round and round in circles for another year, unless the SFA is receptive to a WoS breakaway, which remains to be seen.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's that last bit where I think Burnie_man is going a step too far based on the available info.

"....the NRJFA officials made it crystal clear that there was no appetite amongst junior clubs to become Tier 6 in the north, as indeed was their right so to do.”

[LongTimeLurker]

I was able to read it OK the first time even when there was no bold face. Most HL clubs don't want there to be any relegation from the HL, none of the NRSJFA clubs are interested in promotion, so the north doesn't see this as being anything to do with them. The SFA and SJFA subsequently ploughed on in southern PWG meetings as if this didn't change anything significant on SJFA entry, so where's the evidence that this means that the NRSJA are definitively out and at loggerheads with the rest of the SJFA over pyramid entry? You are taking things one step too far.

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I was able to read it OK the first time even when there was no bold face. Most HL clubs don't want there to be any relegation from the HL, none of the NRSJFA clubs are interested in promotion, so the north doesn't see this as being anything to do with them. The SFA and SJFA subsequently ploughed on in southern PWG meetings as if this didn't change anything significant on SJFA entry, so where's the evidence that this means that the NRSJA are definitively out and at loggerheads with the rest of the SJFA over pyramid entry? You are taking things one step too far.

It was in bold the first time round.

The SJFA, by your own admission, voted to enter the Pyramid intact and we're told that is why the SJFA negotiate at PWG and not the Regions themselves. However the NRJFA have made it clear they are not interested, hence why the HL have dropped out of PWG discussions recently, and the meetings progressed on that basis.

The SFA produced a plan for this season which included WRJFA and ERJFA at tier 6, but did not include NRJFA.  The SJFA were more than happy to see the WRJFA and ERJFA enter the play-offs, with the NRJFA continuing to do their own thing in isolation.

All that is fact, and all that drives a big hole through the theory that the SJFA are mandated to only discuss all-in entry.  That is false, a blind man can see that.

Which brings us all the way back to the WRJFA.  If they could have entered for this season, why didn't they? it cannot be because the SJFA can't be seen to leave other Regions behind because we have already established that they weren't too concerned with the NRJFA being left behind.

So the mandate is busted.  If the WRJFA want entry, get them round the table at PWG and start talking directly to them.  If they don't, the way is open for a WoS to be discussed.  The all-in entry excuse is no longer credible.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Burnie_man

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It was in bold the first time round.

Not when I read it on the P&J website months ago. What you are ignoring is the possibility that the NRSJFA still gets tier 6 status on paper with nothing changing in practice because there is no appetite for it amongst NRSJFA and HL clubs. If that's the case, the all three entering mandate is intact and the reason the WRSJFA didn't enter is because the SJFA had no mandate to do it one at a time any more than they would have to do it two at a time, which they were never actually trying to do. If the WRSJFA is mad keen on pyramid entry somebody should have kicked up a fuss at the SJFA's 2019 AGM, but we are led to believe noone did. The problem appears to be that many people are convinced that the SFA will swing a big club at some point and put the EoS in their place, so they are not buying the narrative you are peddling about needing to have a breakaway WoS.

Edited September 23, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Bestsinceslicebread]

Look its going round in circles here

You have the HL, LL, EOS, SOS, SJFA, SFA, EJFA, NRJFA, WRJFA, PWG are fighting for their own agenda and that's outwith the clubs views. (did I leave anyone out - sorry it was a momentary lapse of concentration)

SJFA;   I think we are all clear that the SJFA are only interested if all the teams join the ranks of seniors, If one is not allowed on their terms then they don't wanna anyone to go.
ERJFA;   are now, I believe from what I've read, is that they want in as a separate entity  at tier 6 (which wont happen).
NRJFA;   don't want involved stating all junior clubs are of the same view that they have no interest. ( many reasons why this could be but in reality's as most don't have the capability or standards to reach tier 5. This is their position at the moment but if the West Region or East Region join I suspect their views will change, so no point going any further on the matter.
EOS;    are happy for a WOS to be started straight away at tier 6 and so are SOS with the same view.
the EOS and SOS do not want the ERJFA in as a separate association at Tier 6.
HL;   are quite happy the way they are but will take offers of teams to make up the numbers of their league, once 20 has been reached, (I believe 17 so far), then they would allocate a division below which would be in tier 6
SOS;  Quite happy to stay the way its going as they are in tier 6 which some think the standard of teams are weak and should be lower.
LL;  different kettle of fish, with the border of tayside and who promoted, relegated to the LL makes it a bit time consuming.

 

Each should be worked on as separate entities and dealt with accordingly, might take a few years the way they are carrying on but get the West into Tier 6 asap.
If EOS and SOS stated that they are up for a WOS and there will be no objection then letters should be sent out to each individual club to make sure they know this and then its up to the WRJA to meet the demands of the clubs if most want a move.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The problem appears to be that many people are convinced that the SFA will swing a big club at some point and put the EoS in their place, so they are not buying the narrative you are peddling about needing to have a breakaway WoS.

I'm peddling no narrative, but the fact is it has been discussed, and remains an option. No clubs can be swung as we've already established, and the EoS are not preventing West entry.  I personally think a WoS should be the way forward, but understand clubs want to give the SJFA/WRJFA time to strike a deal, but that won't continue indefinitely. If the SJFA still want to cling to the East then there will be no progress.

Surely given your pro-Pyramid stance, a WoS makes more send than trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? If not, why not? do you have connections to the Juniors in the west?

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

But it was and nobody seems to have rocked the boat over what was happening, so that's a recipe for going round and round in circles for another year, unless the SFA is receptive to a WoS breakaway, which remains to be seen.

Which goes back to how much the SJFA updated their clubs about all the options.

And it should go round and round in circles by virtue of TJ having to work from the same mandate of all in he got in 2018. Don't think anyone reported any significant changes to the SJFA entry to the pyramid from 2019. So TJ has to go back into whenever the next PWG meeting is with the same approach that's already been voted down.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

....Surely given your pro-Pyramid stance, a WoS makes more send than trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? If not, why not? do you have connections to the Juniors in the west?

Explaining why something is happening is not the same as supporting what is happening or wanting it to happen. The square peg into a round hole scenario obviously suits any SJFA blazers who are anti-pyramid just fine. I think the EoS are making a mountain out of a molehill because as explained previously many pages back I think they would inevitably win any long term struggle for supremacy in the east if the ERSJFA entered, so would have preferred that Tom Johnston had not got his probable preferred outcome of no change and everything was up and running this season.

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I'm peddling no narrative, but the fact is it has been discussed, and remains an option. No clubs can be swung as we've already established, and the EoS are not preventing West entry.  I personally think a WoS should be the way forward, but understand clubs want to give the SJFA/WRJFA time to strike a deal, but that won't continue indefinitely. If the SJFA still want to cling to the East then there will be no progress.

Surely given your pro-Pyramid stance, a WoS makes more send than trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? If not, why not? do you have connections to the Juniors in the west?

The PWG should test the water (soon), by contacting the West Junior clubs to ask for their responses about joining the pyramid in 2020/21. Three simple questions might suffice  for each club to respond individually to the following:

Q1 join the pyramid under the existing West Region Junior structure (Tier 6 and below), but only if the East Region juniors also join the pyramid at the same time

Q2 or join the pyramid as part of the establishment of a new "senior" West of Scotland league, separate from the SJFA and the ERJFA

Q3 or remain junior and not join the pyramid, now or, in the forseeable future.

If clubs don't reply, it will be assumed that they don't wish to join the pyramid, as per Q3 above.

This would clarify the situation (impasse), and it would therefore be open to the SFA to circulate a consultation document to the West juniors, seeking their views on forming a new senior West of Scotland (iier 6) League next season, assuming that a sufficient number of clubs  declare an intention to apply. If not resolved,, send in Maxwell & Petrie, to "meet the junior clubs" and hear their views. first hand.

This approach would clarify the wishes of each club, and (probably) unblock the current  logjam.

  

[Spyro]

 

[Burnie_man]

15 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Explaining why something is happening is not the same as supporting what is happening or wanting it to happen. The square peg into a round hole scenario obviously suits any SJFA blazers who are anti-pyramid just fine. I think the EoS are making a mountain out of a molehill because as explained previously many pages back I think they would inevitably win any long term struggle for supremacy in the east if the ERSJFA entered, so would have preferred that Tom Johnston had not got his probable preferred outcome of no change and everything was up and running this season.

As has been said umpteen times, the EoS are right to dig their heels in over the inclusion of another senior league at the same level covering the same geographical area, whilst pointing out Tayside clubs cannot join the LL as it stands.

If you let the ERJFA in at tier 6, I will guarantee you they will seek to establish themselves and expand by whatever means necessary to keep their place, and an artificial division will continue in the Lothians and Fife for the foreseeable future. You may also find clubs jump between leagues to whichever offers the better chance of progression. A completely ridiculous situation to be in.  The only compromise I could possibly see happening is that they are allowed in for one season only to facilitate a merger, but again, that seems unlikely and doesn't address the Tayside issue.

The focus at the next PWG whenever it happens, should be on getting the west on-board in whatever form for next season.  It's fate should not be linked to the east.

[Gordon EF]

It seems ridiculous to look for a one size fits all approach to integrating the juniors since the situation in all three regions is materially different

[Beenzon-Toste]

 

As has been said umpteen times, the EoS are right to dig their heels in over the inclusion of another senior league at the same level covering the same geographical area, whilst pointing out Tayside clubs cannot join the LL as it stands.

If you let the ERJFA in at tier 6, I will guarantee you they will seek to establish themselves and expand by whatever means necessary to keep their place, and an artificial division will continue in the Lothians and Fife for the foreseeable future. You may also find clubs jump between leagues to whichever offers the better chance of progression. A completely ridiculous situation to be in.  The only compromise I could possibly see happening is that they are allowed in for one season only to facilitate a merger, but again, that seems unlikely and doesn't address the Tayside issue.

The focus at the next PWG whenever it happens, should be on getting the west on-board in whatever form for next season.  It's fate should not be linked to the east.

 

At last, Burnie has provided us with the answer we've all been seeking.

"Tayside clubs can't join the LL as it stands"

Change that to allow the Tayside Junior clubs to join the LL.

That then means that the ERSJFA is covering a different geographical area to the EOSL albeit with an overlap. Similar to the WRSJFA and the SOSL.

Both the WRSJFA and the ERSJFA enter at tier 6. That gives us a 4 way play-off for entry to the LL.

Go for it, what have you got to fear?

 

Burnie also states that the ERSJFA will seek to establish themselves and expand.

So that's a bad thing?

Is it not what a dying on its arse EOSL done?

They established themselves and expanded, which was probably the right thing for them to do. Only problem now is, that they want to expand and encompass the East to give them overall control of tier 6, and destroy the Juniors in the process.

 

[GNU_Linux]

 

 
At last, Burnie has provided us with the answer we've all been seeking.
"Tayside clubs can't join the LL as it stands"
Change that to allow the Tayside Junior clubs to join the LL.
That then means that the ERSJFA is covering a different geographical area to the EOSL albeit with an overlap. Similar to the WRSJFA and the SOSL.
Both the WRSJFA and the ERSJFA enter at tier 6. That gives us a 4 way play-off for entry to the LL.
Go for it, what have you got to fear?
 
Burnie also states that the ERSJFA will seek to establish themselves and expand.
So that's a bad thing?
Is it not what a dying on its arse EOSL done?
They established themselves and expanded, which was probably the right thing for them to do. Only problem now is, that they want to expand and encompass the East to give them overall control of tier 6, and destroy the Juniors in the process.
 

Do explain why the lothians & fife area should get two pathways to tier 6 but every other part of the country gets one all for sake of retaining the 'junior' label. Also with the east regions current format & no published plan of returning to a single league the region couldn't get in at tier 6 anyway. When the EOS split last season there was a plan published to form a 16 team EOS top flight.

As for the tayside issue thats a matter for the professional game body as its they who decide the HL/LL boundry line. If tayside clubs got slotted at tier 6 they'd be in the position whereby they'd be in an LL feeder but unable to promote to it.