Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

But isnt the kello Rovers one due to travel for easiness. Obviously if a west came in I think Bonnyton, Edusport reserves might disappear anyway and Glasgow uni would be involved in a WOSFL. I know when we played Bonnyton at Lockerbie, Mids are in their league, it took them the same travel time that it did for Camelon to get there.

Some Tayside clubs are allowed in. Tayport i'd think teams like scone and luncarty probably could because they are that close to the line. But teams that are way out like carnoustie or lochee should be nowhere near the eosfl

Nobody knows what any imagined WoSFL would look like and nobody is organising one right now. The only proposals even attempted are Juniors all in and the West Region in now on its own. So the idea that these SoSFL anomalies are just going to disappear into a new league is as hypothetical as saying the SoSFL will step down a tier.

In terms of travel Bonnyton pretty much have to go past 6 Junior sides before they play their nearest SoSFL club Nithsdale. The last of the 6 being Kello.

 

For Tayside having the SoS and West Region exist with overlapping clubs opens up the argument over how significant the HL/LL boundary really should be and the issue over the two East leagues.

Why should they be the only region impacted by a boundary, especially as the concentration of clubs makes it look more sensiible for them to be playing in the East.

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Nobody knows what any imagined WoSFL would look like and nobody is organising one right now. The only proposals even attempted are Juniors all in and the West Region in now on its own. So the idea that these SoSFL anomalies are just going to disappear into a new league is as hypothetical as saying the SoSFL will step down a tier.

In terms of travel Bonnyton pretty much have to go past 6 Junior sides before they play their nearest SoSFL club Nithsdale. The last of the 6 being Kello.

 

For Tayside having the SoS and West Region exist with overlapping clubs opens up the argument over how significant the HL/LL boundary really should be and the issue over the two East leagues.

Why should they be the only region impacted by a boundary, especially as the concentration of clubs makes it look more sensiible for them to be playing in the East.

 

That's only because theirs more clubs south.  Give you an example camelon are 20 mins from kilsyth and the same from boness and linlithgow so what do you do.

We play haddington on saturday and that's 55 mins but when we went to kilwinning it was about an hour so what do you do.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

That's only because theirs more clubs south.  Give you an example camelon are 20 mins from kilsyth and the same from boness and linlithgow so what do you do.

We play haddington on saturday and that's 55 mins but when we went to kilwinning it was about an hour so what do you do.

 

Right now the only league structure in Scotland being asked to change is the Junior East Region. The only boundary that exists is the HL/LL. Everyone else gets to pick and choose, making up the rules to suit them.

[Guest]

All the current structures, the eos and the sos are the leagues in place within the pyramid, so logically and objectively they shouldn't be asked to change.

There is a requirement for a wos league (Glasgow area is a rather large area currently uncovered, other than a couple sos teams who may well wish to apply to move to a wos league when it is formed and others in the wos who may wish to apy to the sos in due course)

There is no requirement to let Tayside clubs above the boundary line play lowland football. There is no requirement to have two leagues at the same level in the same area, particularly in the east. (this may be the case for the wos in a couple of instances but the wos and sos would be there to represent different areas, the east wouldn't)

This has been gone over for months and it is becoming so tedious to continually go over and over the same old stuff.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 hours ago, G4Mac said:

There is no requirement to let Tayside clubs above the boundary line play lowland football. 

And yet it has been a point open to discussion and can't be continually fobbed off as a misunderstanding of Iain Maxwell's.

September PWG, Maxwell's first, everyone discussed the issue of juniors entering all in with the EoS suggesting West & Tayside as the don't want a competitor East league.

October Professional Game Board presented with the Junior all in model as done deal.

November first and last Highland PWG meeting with no Tayside representation.

April(?) Maxwell sends out his Lowland pyramid playoff proposal with the East Region included intact.

[LongTimeLurker]

5 hours ago, G4Mac said:

All the current structures, the eos and the sos are the leagues in place within the pyramid, so logically and objectively they shouldn't be asked to change...

They are not being asked to change. They are being asked to agree to a playoff format change to accommodate the entry as is of two extra existing leagues and are blocking it. 

It's not at all clear that's a logical rather than a selfish posture. In England, the Southern League were in first and the Isthmian League joined later with an overlapping geography that got fixed considerably later. Pretty sure our other nearest neighbour, NI, still has overlapping tier 4 leagues as well because all the top existing intermediate leagues were simply tacked on as is beneath the three national divisions.

Edited September 12, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2019 at 14:09, TFW said:

If you knew about bad deals some of these clubs did with buying grounds, the attitude to committee men about Astro pitches, their attitude to youth teams and the potential of having a youth academies then you would be shocked so don't be surprised if they decide to stay, some out of stubbornness, what chance has these clubs of continuing in the future.  What I will say, in 20/30 years time when the younger generations are older and joining the committees of teams and those people are out of the committee, you will see different attitude and more clearer visions for the clubs. its just progression

There's a reason England banned the use of artificial pitches in 1995. They're awful, and have no place in the game. Yes, I know the arguments about being able to be used 365 days per year and community involvement etc, but they are the dregs in terms of being able to play on them. The only reason we have them in Scotland isn't the weather but a lack of finance from other sources, ie SKY. There's no disguising the fact that they are very much second rate in relation to their grassy counterparts. I've yet to meet ant football fan who doesn't agree with that assertion.

We are also very early on into their history, and the extent of injuries - especially longer term ones - are still yet to be really identified. In short, we have them in Scotland because we have a second rate game, and administration, from the very top down into the non league set up.

Viva grass!

As someone who watches a lot of football on 3g, you barely notice the difference on a well maintained 3g pitch. the match is no different.    You get badly maintained 3g as you get badly maintained grass pitches (We've all seen horrendous games spoiled by the state of the pitch whether it's brick hard in summer or a soft quagmire in winter, or the grass too long, or more sand than grass etc). 

Similarly (as you're about to find out), you get very very good 3g pitches and very very good grass pitches.  However, the former you can play on every day, the latter you can't.   In order to obtain a Licence, a 3G pitch needs to pass a FIFA test, grass pitches have no such requirement.

Injuries is just another often quoted unproven myth, used by those who don't like 3g. There's a reason why evidence is "still to be identified", you can't identify what isn't there.

The Lowland U20 Development League is dominated by games on 3g pitches.  Kids are brought up on them, players train on them, and an increasing amount of games are played on them. Iceland do not bad using them, we play Internationals on them. 

We need to move on from this and stop repeating lazy stereotypes. As Scotland falls further behind the best European nations, overtaken by Iceland, some still moan about 3g.

[Burnie_man]

16 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

They are not being asked to change. They are being asked to agree to a playoff format change to accommodate the entry as is of two extra existing leagues and are blocking it. 

It's not at all clear that's a logical rather than a selfish posture. In England, the Southern League were in first and the Isthmian League joined later with an overlapping geography that got fixed considerably later. Pretty sure our other nearest neighbour, NI, still has overlapping tier 4 leagues as well because all the top existing intermediate leagues were simply tacked on as is beneath the three national divisions.

There's a difference between a bit of overlapping, and two large leagues covering exactly the same territory.  Still baffled as to why people think this is a good idea when there's a simple solution.

Also, why do we need to follow what England do? I'd say having overlapping leagues is a good guide as to how not to do it.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Burnie_man

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

There's a difference between a bit of overlapping, and two large leagues covering exactly the same territory....

The Southern and Isthmian leagues in England were very much a case of the latter. You should know the geography involved on that having followed Wimbledon in the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Isthmian_League

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Southern_Football_League

It's easier to get things going on an all-encompassing genuine pyramid by incorporating existing leagues as is and fine-tuning things later on once it has bedded in rather than trying to force mergers and deliberately engineering scenarios that leave a lot of clubs continuing on the outside.

[Dev]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The Southern and Isthmian leagues in England were very much a case of the latter. You should know the geography involved on that having followed Wimbledon in the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Isthmian_League

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Southern_Football_League

It's easier to get things going on an all-encompassing genuine pyramid by incorporating existing leagues as is and fine-tuning things later on once it has bedded in rather than trying to force mergers and deliberately engineering scenarios that leave a lot of clubs continuing on the outside.

But, in fairness, the English FA is actively sorting out the issue of over-lapping leagues at the same level in the same area so you're a little behind the picture on this particularly point.

[LongTimeLurker]

9 minutes ago, Dev said:

But, in fairness, the English FA is actively sorting out the issue of over-lapping leagues at the same level in the same area so you're a little behind the picture on this particularly point.

That's mentioned in the text you are quoting and also in my earlier post. The key point is that things continued as is after Isthmian League entry on the geographies of the leagues involved for many seasons, so having overlapping ERSJFA and EoS tier 6 leagues as a starting point to an all-encompassing pyramid at the semi-pro level would be nothing drastically unusual. If you want something genuinely bizarre, in Holland Protestant and Catholic teams still play in separate leagues with overlapping regional geographies in the same overall pyramid but on Saturdays and Sundays, respectively. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The Southern and Isthmian leagues in England were very much a case of the latter. You should know the geography involved on that having followed Wimbledon in the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Isthmian_League

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Southern_Football_League

It's easier to get things going on an all-encompassing genuine pyramid by incorporating existing leagues as is and fine-tuning things later on once it has bedded in rather than trying to force mergers and deliberately engineering scenarios that leave a lot of clubs continuing on the outside.

No, let's get it right to begin with and if you must look towards England, learn from their mistakes.

If history tells you anything, getting Junior football to change is a tad difficult.  So let then either stay outside the Pyramid or join the EoS,  It's fairly straightforward and simple, otherwise you will have the scenario of;

Whitburn (ERJFA) - 3 miles - Blackburn (EoS) - 4 miles - Livingston Utd (ERJFA) - 2 miles - Pumpherston (ERJFA) - 3 miles - Broxburn (EoS).  All in theory at the same level in the Pyramid but two different leagues almost along the same stretch of road. Nobody looking at that rationally thinks it's a good idea and it could take many years to sort if you agree to that set-up.

But hey, we've been over this umpteen times.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

No, let's get it right to begin with and if you must look towards England, learn from their mistakes.

If history tells you anything, getting Junior football to change is a tad difficult.  So let then either stay outside the Pyramid or join the EoS,  It's fairly straightforward and simple, otherwise you will have the scenario of;

Whitburn (ERJFA) - 3 miles - Blackburn (EoS) - 4 miles - Livingston Utd (ERJFA) - 2 miles - Pumpherston (ERJFA) - 3 miles - Broxburn (EoS).  All in theory at the same level in the Pyramid but two different leagues almost along the same stretch of road. Nobody looking at that rationally thinks it's a good idea and it could take many years to sort if you agree to that set-up.

But hey, we've been over this umpteen times.

Right to begin with was 2013  but let's not let facts get in the way.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Right to begin with was 2013  but let's not let facts get in the way.

Sorry, not sure what you mean.

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Sorry, not sure what you mean.

Pyramid was started in 2013. Not last year or next year. The time to get it right was in its inception.

We're years down the road now and saying "let's get it right to begin with" is bull.

Junior all in approach had its flaws. However, another 100+ clubs would be in the pyramid by now and potentially saw the NCL is as well.

The Junior Cup would have been streamlined to fit the senior calendar and the need for at least two weeks at the end of the season for the LL playoff.

By the end of the PWG meetings you had the SFA confirming it would oversee all tier 6 leagues.

You also had Cumnock, Petershill and probably Clydebank at the very least applying for SFA membership.

Those 3 things knock the standing and relevance of the SJFA and brings all the clubs closer together without the grade divide.

A merged East of Scotland league set up seems more likely at that point. Same for the West and North of Scotland.

Now boundaries, LL2, Tayside are still sat waiting to be resolved.

Your way and the all in way both take years to get right and none do it right from the start.

[San Starko Rover]

The SOS really can’t continue as a tier 6 league indefinitely just because they helped set up the pyramid all it would do is cause a poor balance. Once the WOS and EOS leagues are established the trapdoor to the LL needs to come up but if you gave automatic promotion to the SOS along with the EOS and WOS they would be the absolute whipping boys as the league is too weak. You’ve really got 3 options for the SOS league.

1. Stay as is and becomes a feeder to the WOS league (current SOS licensed teams need to be invited to a WOS league.

2. Have both a WOS and SOS but the SOS needs to expand their area north To include the southern West Juniors to strengthen the league.

3. SOS becomes the WOS and has a season of conferences, SJFA stay outside the pyramid all clubs who want in the pyramid from Oban down to the border join the WOS. All clubs who don’t want to join stay Junior or amateur.

We should eventually end up with 2 feeders to the LL one East and one West each gets an automatic promotion spot and an East v West playoff for the third place. Personally id like to see options 3 and let any juniors who want to stay Junior do so until such time as they decide to move or the grade is no longer viable.

[Burnie_man]

26 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Pyramid was started in 2013. Not last year or next year. The time to get it right was in its inception.

We're years down the road now and saying "let's get it right to begin with" is bull.

Junior all in approach had its flaws. However, another 100+ clubs would be in the pyramid by now and potentially saw the NCL is as well.

The Junior Cup would have been streamlined to fit the senior calendar and the need for at least two weeks at the end of the season for the LL playoff.

By the end of the PWG meetings you had the SFA confirming it would oversee all tier 6 leagues.

You also had Cumnock, Petershill and probably Clydebank at the very least applying for SFA membership.

Those 3 things knock the standing and relevance of the SJFA and brings all the clubs closer together without the grade divide.

A merged East of Scotland league set up seems more likely at that point. Same for the West and North of Scotland.

Now boundaries, LL2, Tayside are still sat waiting to be resolved.

Your way and the all in way both take years to get right and none do it right from the start.

The SJFA weren't interested in 2013, so it's not "bull" as you politely put it.

They are now interested, so if integration is to happen, let's get it right at the beginning (in stages) and remove the need to find agreement and consensus further down the line to fix not getting it right to start with via an all-in approach (which isn't all-in as North appears to be excluded).

As has been said umpteen times, and by other posters, set-up a WoSFL - it's straightforward - and let clubs apply as a first step.  The gap in the Pyramid south of the line is therefore filled, HL/LL -- EoS/WoS/SoS.  All Junior clubs  then have an option.

Second step is to deal with Tayside/North, which may take longer, or may not happen at all if they are happy to remain as they are, same with the North Juniors.

Linking the fate of the west with the east means no progress at all.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Burnie_man

[LongTimeLurker]

46 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Those 3 things knock the standing and relevance of the SJFA and brings all the clubs closer together without the grade divide...

It's also abundantly obvious that a 16 team ERSJFA tier 6 league as opposed to the current south:north split would have a geography that would skew heavily towards Tayside and that the geographical overlap issue would hence almost certainly sort itself out over time in the EoS's favour as teams south of the Forth and in the southern portions of Fife would not see that as the answer for them long term, so the vehemence of some of the EoS opposition looks completely out of proportion in a making a mountain out of a molehill sort of way. The ERSJFA would not be a significant threat to them now they have the east superleague format most of the top Fife & Lothians clubs would always have preferred.

Edited September 12, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's also abundantly obvious that a 16 team ERSJFA tier 6 league as opposed to the current south:north split would have a geography that would skew heavily towards Tayside and that the geographical overlap issue would hence almost certainly sort itself out over time in the EoS's favour as teams south of the Forth and in the southern portions of Fife would not see that as the answer for them long term, so the vehemence of some of the EoS opposition looks completely out of the proportion in a making a mountain out of a molehill sort of way. The ERSJFA would not be a significant threat to them now they have the east superleague format most of the top Fife & Lothians clubs would always have preferred.

You've just made an assumption, which may never happen.  You can't go forward hoping that something happens based on an assumption.

I know you like pointing fingers at the EoS but not having two leagues covering the same area at the same level is just plain common sense, not "vehement.....opposition" or a "significant threat". It's just plain daft.  That's not to mention that Tayside clubs can't feed the LL as it stands.

However, this is groundhog day.

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You've just made an assumption, which may never happen.  You can't go forward hoping that something happens based on an assumption.

That's exactly what you've done with your WoS league conjured out of thin air followed by another series of if, buts and maybes.