Junior football, what is the future?

[Arthurlie1981]

Management committee would surely come from the clubs (like it does just now with all of the other leagues), probably fewer cup competitions - South Challenge Cup, League Cup, could maybe do a west cup with the SOS. The EOS offered previously to help get things started in the west, guessing they could help with fixtures to begin with if Kennie remains Junior. Disciplinary already running to the senior rules.
And if it's a new setup with say 12-16 clubs, that's probably easier to manage than other leagues.

Fair points. At the end of the day it’s going to take some of the big clubs to take the plunge. If they don’t then things won’t change. I hope they do but I’m certainly not willing to place any money on it. Most clubs in the west don’t care about licensing so I doubt the will be an issue.

[TFW]

1 hour ago, drs said:

Nonsense - plenty of people prefer artificial, most players under 25 will have grown up playing on it more than grass. The problem is there have been some horrific artificial pitches that were used for far longer than their lifespan or they have not been maintained appropriately - Petershill was an abomination for a couple of years.

I played on artificial pitches regularly over 30 years ago and it never did me any harm long term and having artificial pitches all over the country helped take Iceland to the most recent World Cup and European Championships whilst we sat at home and bemoaned our lack of progress on and off the pitch. 

People want to moan about progress as they are stuck in the past - its same reason why the Junior game is being left behind by the senior leagues.

I've yet to meet one, despite your claim. I watch Queen of the South at times, when my own Junior team do not have a game for whatever reason, and it's the same as every other plastic pitch, you see defenders racing to volley the long balls clear before they bounce because they have no idea where the ball will end up otherwise. That's not progress. Progress is playing the ball our from defence when you have the opportunity to do so, you simply can not when the ball has a mind of it's own because of the bounce of the pitch. Do keep believing though, I'll watch my games whenever possible on the real stuff.

[Salvo Montalbano]

I've yet to meet one, despite your claim. I watch Queen of the South at times, when my own Junior team do not have a game for whatever reason, and it's the same as every other plastic pitch, you see defenders racing to volley the long balls clear before they bounce because they have no idea where the ball will end up otherwise. That's not progress. Progress is playing the ball our from defence when you have the opportunity to do so, you simply can not when the ball has a mind of it's own because of the bounce of the pitch. Do keep believing though, I'll watch my games whenever possible on the real stuff.

Except defenders are easily able to pass the ball about at the back because there are no divots, there isn't a big sandy/muddy patch in the middle of the six yard box and the surface is ideally suited to playing on the deck as it is standardised across the whole pitch rather than having sticky/dry, short/long, slope/flat patches as they do on grass. I've seen plenty of good games on artificial surfaces and I've seen plenty of abysmal games on grass. I've seen a few games spoiled by poor astroturf (Stenhousemuir which was too dry, for example) and I've seen a few games spoiled by poor grass (some that more were like rugby pitches than football pitches). To suggest that all grass pitches are better than all artificial pitches is being very selective.

[DiegoDiego]

Pretty much everyone in Kazakhstan plays on astroturf including some of their top clubs. I'd better give their FA a call telling them to rip it all up and start again if they ever want to get the better of dross like Scotland.

[craigkillie]

As for SoS, I see this a lot. They are a senior league, why wouldn't they be entitled to remain at tier 6?  Sure, they are a weak league compared to the rest, but if they choose to remain at tier 6 and an independent league then it's their right to do so.

Just because they are Tier 6 now doesn't mean they should always be. At the moment there is nothing else in the West so there's no issue, but going forward if there is a strong WoS and EoS at Tier 6 then it would be very odd to consider what is mainly an amateur league to be at the same level as them purely because of a geographical quirk.

If the South (ie Dumfries and Galloway) can have their own Tier 6 league, why not the Borders or Fife or Argyll and Bute? A system which is based purely on historical priveliges is not fair.

Clubs in the South, as with clubs in every other part of Scotland should have the same sort of dilemma - play at a higher level with more travel or play at local level but accept your place in the overall scheme of things.

[Guest]

The problem with this is that the SOS originally bought I to the pyramid concept. Look at the LL and you will find clubs who formerly played in the SOS. I see no reason to automatically suggest they should give up their place at tier 6 just because the juniors now want to join.

This is the approach that frustrates people, the view that because the juniors want to access a system they have had no interest in for 5 years everyone else has to either adjust what they are doing, rejig their set up or give up their earned place at a certain level, even though their association was one of the founding members of the pyramid.

There is no need for any current association of the pyramid to move down the way, step aside or give up their current position because the sjfa want in on the action.

[FairWeatherFan]

39 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

The problem with this is that the SOS originally bought I to the pyramid concept. Look at the LL and you will find clubs who formerly played in the SOS. I see no reason to automatically suggest they should give up their place at tier 6 just because the juniors now want to join.

This is the approach that frustrates people, the view that because the juniors want to access a system they have had no interest in for 5 years everyone else has to either adjust what they are doing, rejig their set up or give up their earned place at a certain level, even though their association was one of the founding members of the pyramid.

There is no need for any current association of the pyramid to move down the way, step aside or give up their current position because the sjfa want in on the action.

Nobody is suggesting it will automatically happen. In fact the two ideas on the board juniors all in a tier 6 and the West region/WOSFL on its own all respect the SOSFL at tier 6.

However, to think the pyramid in 2020 will be the same in 2030 is foolish.

[craigkillie]

3 hours ago, G4Mac said:

The problem with this is that the SOS originally bought I to the pyramid concept. Look at the LL and you will find clubs who formerly played in the SOS. I see no reason to automatically suggest they should give up their place at tier 6 just because the juniors now want to join.

This is the approach that frustrates people, the view that because the juniors want to access a system they have had no interest in for 5 years everyone else has to either adjust what they are doing, rejig their set up or give up their earned place at a certain level, even though their association was one of the founding members of the pyramid.

There is no need for any current association of the pyramid to move down the way, step aside or give up their current position because the sjfa want in on the action.

Nobody would be automatically giving up anything. My ideal scenario would be a new all-encompassing West of Scotland League where a number of current South of Scotland league clubs would have the opportunity to participate. The remaining South of Scotland league would then become a feeder to that, alongside the West Junior structure.

If that's not possible, then you might well have the leagues running in parallel for some amount of time, but eventually it's going to make sense to have some sort of merger to avoid the imbalanced scenario where a team like Lochar Thistle are considered a Tier 6 side on a par with someone like Linlithgow Rose or Irvine Meadow when they are clearly not equals. Even the current situation where the SoS and EoS are considered equals is a bit farcical, since the leagues are patently nowhere near equal in strength. That was borne out in the Kelty v Threave play-off when Kelty won 10-0 on aggregate.

This is nothing to do with the SJFA muscling their way in, it's about creating the fairest possible system, and that means allowing teams to find their own natural level through promotion and relegation. Maintaining an artificial place in the pyramid just because you started out there isn't particularly fair, and I'm not sure it has any actual impact on the individual clubs involved anyway. If Threave wanted to get back to the Lowland League they would still have a route to get there, it's just that they would have to actually be one of the best clubs in the West of Scotland, rather than just one of the best in a very small region of the country.

[AlanCamelonfan]

12 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Nobody would be automatically giving up anything. My ideal scenario would be a new all-encompassing West of Scotland League where a number of current South of Scotland league clubs would have the opportunity to participate. The remaining South of Scotland league would then become a feeder to that, alongside the West Junior structure.

If that's not possible, then you might well have the leagues running in parallel for some amount of time, but eventually it's going to make sense to have some sort of merger to avoid the imbalanced scenario where a team like Lochar Thistle are considered a Tier 6 side on a par with someone like Linlithgow Rose or Irvine Meadow when they are clearly not equals. Even the current situation where the SoS and EoS are considered equals is a bit farcical, since the leagues are patently nowhere near equal in strength. That was borne out in the Kelty v Threave play-off when Kelty won 10-0 on aggregate.

This is nothing to do with the SJFA muscling their way in, it's about creating the fairest possible system, and that means allowing teams to find their own natural level through promotion and relegation. Maintaining an artificial place in the pyramid just because you started out there isn't particularly fair, and I'm not sure it has any actual impact on the individual clubs involved anyway. If Threave wanted to get back to the Lowland League they would still have a route to get there, it's just that they would have to actually be one of the best clubs in the West of Scotland, rather than just one of the best in a very small region of the country.

Threave beat kelty in a cup tie though

[Marshmallo]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Threave beat kelty in a cup tie though

And East Kilbride beat St Mirren this season. The Lowland Leagus shouldn't be elevated to tier 1 on that basis.

[Ginaro]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Threave beat kelty in a cup tie though

On penalties, when Kelty were down to 10 men early in the match.

5 hours ago, G4Mac said:

The problem with this is that the SOS originally bought I to the pyramid concept. Look at the LL and you will find clubs who formerly played in the SOS. I see no reason to automatically suggest they should give up their place at tier 6 just because the juniors now want to join.

This is the approach that frustrates people, the view that because the juniors want to access a system they have had no interest in for 5 years everyone else has to either adjust what they are doing, rejig their set up or give up their earned place at a certain level, even though their association was one of the founding members of the pyramid.

There is no need for any current association of the pyramid to move down the way, step aside or give up their current position because the sjfa want in on the action.

In the longer term though, you can't on one hand say that there shouldn't be two overlapping LL feeder leagues in the east - while ignoring the fact that WOS/WRJFA+SOS would be two overlapping leagues in the west.

So it's either a choice of:

 - creating a new WOS setup and inviting SOS clubs to take part in a regionwide west league, otherwise they can remain in their local league but further down the pyramid. OR

 - tell the Juniors to join the SOS where there would need to be conferences and then tier 6/7 divisions like in the east, so you have clubs in the west arranged on sporting merit.

The SOS can still buy into the pyramid system - but whichever way the Juniors join you won't have many SOS clubs in tier 6 because they aren't good enough to be there, just like how none of the 2017/18 EOS clubs are in tier 6.

[Spyro]

As harsh as it looks, moving the SoS league down a tier to create a new WoS tier at tier 6 should NOT really change much for them. As long as they keep any of their current perks (Cup rights, payments, etc) then I can’t see there being much of a problem

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

On penalties, when Kelty were down to 10 men early in the match.

In the longer term though, you can't on one hand say that there shouldn't be two overlapping LL feeder leagues in the east - while ignoring the fact that WOS/WRJFA+SOS would be two overlapping leagues in the west.

So it's either a choice of:

 - creating a new WOS setup and inviting SOS clubs to take part in a regionwide west league, otherwise they can remain in their local league but further down the pyramid. OR

 - tell the Juniors to join the SOS where there would need to be conferences and then tier 6/7 divisions like in the east, so you have clubs in the west arranged on sporting merit.

The SOS can still buy into the pyramid system - but whichever way the Juniors join you won't have many SOS clubs in tier 6 because they aren't good enough to be there, just like how none of the 2017/18 EOS clubs are in tier 6.

Its totally different Bonnyton had to JOIN SoSfl as that was the most local league other than that their is no overlap. The East is completely different theirs west lothian, Falkirk and fife teams in both leagues

[Hillonearth]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

On penalties, when Kelty were down to 10 men early in the match.

In the longer term though, you can't on one hand say that there shouldn't be two overlapping LL feeder leagues in the east - while ignoring the fact that WOS/WRJFA+SOS would be two overlapping leagues in the west.

So it's either a choice of:

 - creating a new WOS setup and inviting SOS clubs to take part in a regionwide west league, otherwise they can remain in their local league but further down the pyramid. OR

 - tell the Juniors to join the SOS where there would need to be conferences and then tier 6/7 divisions like in the east, so you have clubs in the west arranged on sporting merit.

The SOS can still buy into the pyramid system - but whichever way the Juniors join you won't have many SOS clubs in tier 6 because they aren't good enough to be there, just like how none of the 2017/18 EOS clubs are in tier 6.

The overlap - such as it is - consists of two outlier clubs; Kello, the sole D&G juniors and Bonnyton from Ayrshire playing in the SoS.

Other than those there's no geographical overlap whatsoever; while the area covered by the SoS gets called the south west of the country mainly to distinguish it from the Borders proper, it's easy to forget just how far EAST it stretches...Dumfries itself is almost exactly in line longitude-wise to Linlithgow, while the more easterly outposts of the SoS like Annan and Lochmaben are as far east as some of the western Edinburgh suburbs.

Until recently the SoS has never made any pretence of being anything other than a D&G league...in fact they had real reservations about admitting EK due to the travel involved although the way things panned put they never kicked a ball in anger in the league, and Edusport ended up playing at Annan for much the same reason.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hillonearth

[Ginaro]

25 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Its totally different Bonnyton had to JOIN SoSfl as that was the most local league other than that their is no overlap. The East is completely different theirs west lothian, Falkirk and fife teams in both leagues

So what's your argument, that there should be two leagues in the west at tier 6? If Bonnyton had to join the SOS then Junior clubs do the same, including the 14 who are further south than Bonnyton.

1 minute ago, Hillonearth said:

The overlap - such as it is - consists of two outlier clubs; Kello, the sole D&G juniors and Bonnyton from Ayrshire playing in the SoS.

Other than those there's no geographical overlap whatsoever; while the area covered by the SoS gets called the south west of the country mainly to distinguish it from the Borders proper, it's easy to forget just how far EAST it stretches...Dumfries itself is almost exactly in line longitude-wise as say Linlithgow, while the more easterly outposts of the SoS like Annan and Lochmaben are as far east as some of the western Edinburgh suburbs.

Until recently the SoS has never made any pretence of being anything other than a D&G league...in fact they had real reservations about admitting EK due to the travel involved although the way things panned put they never kicked a ball in anger in the league, and Edusport ended up playing at Annan for much the same reason.

There's also Caldeonian Braves reserves based in Motherwell. Nithsdale Wanderers are also further north than three West clubs.

And yes I know D&G stretches to the east but Dalbeattie and Gretna will be relegated to the SOS, and the road network puts those clubs closer to Glasgow than Edinburgh.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Ginaro

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Its totally different Bonnyton had to JOIN SoSfl as that was the most local league other than that their is no overlap. The East is completely different theirs west lothian, Falkirk and fife teams in both leagues

You've got teams out of Ayr and Lanarkshire in the SoSFL and Kello Rovers in the West Region. If the West Region gets in as it is there has to be a look at the boundaries between the SoSFL and West Region. Otherwise a new team could just apply for the SoSFL and get a step ahead on the pyramid.

Not having boundaries and just having Bonnyton, Caledonian and Kello grandfathered in keeps up the arugment that some Tayside clubs should be allowed in the East.

[AlanCamelonfan]

11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You've got teams out of Ayr and Lanarkshire in the SoSFL and Kello Rovers in the West Region. If the West Region gets in as it is there has to be a look at the boundaries between the SoSFL and West Region. Otherwise a new team could just apply for the SoSFL and get a step ahead on the pyramid.

Not having boundaries and just having Bonnyton, Caledonian and Kello grandfathered in keeps up the arugment that some Tayside clubs should be allowed in the East.

But isnt the kello Rovers one due to travel for easiness. Obviously if a west came in I think Bonnyton, Edusport reserves might disappear anyway and Glasgow uni would be involved in a WOSFL. I know when we played Bonnyton at Lockerbie, Mids are in their league, it took them the same travel time that it did for Camelon to get there.

Some Tayside clubs are allowed in. Tayport i'd think teams like scone and luncarty probably could because they are that close to the line. But teams that are way out like carnoustie or lochee should be nowhere near the eosfl

[AlanCamelonfan]

23 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

So what's your argument, that there should be two leagues in the west at tier 6? If Bonnyton had to join the SOS then Junior clubs do the same, including the 14 who are further south than Bonnyton.

There's also Caldeonian Braves reserves based in Motherwell. Nithsdale Wanderers are also further north than three West clubs.

And yes I know D&G stretches to the east but Dalbeattie and Gretna will be relegated to the SOS, and the road network puts those clubs closer to Glasgow than Edinburgh.

They are only further north if you are sticking a straight line across it. But life isn't as simple as that. They are dumfries and galloway. But Girvan is for example 21 miles from ayr. Nithsdale are 31 miles so your argument doesnt stack up

 

Newton stewart is further south than Bedlington because scottish border isnt a straight line. Are we going to ask the Terriers to join the EOSFL

Edited September 11, 2019 by AlanCamelonfan

[cmontheloknow]

D&G is pretty difficult to get around and about in, and all the clubs are effectively amateur.

The SoS shouldn't be at tier 6 indefinitely. Standard-wise it's on a par with the old Ayrshire district league, in some respects it is a winner and loser of Scottish football's unusual geography and history

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

D&G is pretty difficult to get around and about in, and all the clubs are effectively amateur.

The SoS shouldn't be at tier 6 indefinitely. Standard-wise it's on a par with the old Ayrshire district league, in some respects it is a winner and loser of Scottish football's unusual geography and history

maybe teams in that league would be comfortable dropping down. If teams like threave could go to a wosfl and if u had enough for 16 team west league then below that you have a west league and sosfl. Theirs loads of ways to do it. I think creating a WOSFL is likelyonly way as I can't see west as a whole coming in.