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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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12 hours ago, KRRAdamslie said:

Definitely against any sort of pyramid entry. If Talbot are interest in this they will regret it. Joining the pyramid will mean any Junior club will lose their magic; what makes them tic, they will just become another run of the mill Scottish side. The Junior game should not be included in any such promotion system

I hope the west comes into the pyramid as a bloc, but what will it cause it to lose its "magic"? You'll still play the same clubs in the same league, the only differences will be that you can get licensed and guarantee yourselves Scottish Cup access and the champions can get promoted. The latter won't be a "worry" to 90% of the clubs at first anyway...

Talbot are right to get prepared. Even though I disagree with their stance on the pyramid, they are realistic enough to not want to be left behind. Look what happened in the east to the clubs that didn't move, Talbot understandably don't want a situation like that in the west.

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17 hours ago, KRRAdamslie said:

Definitely against any sort of pyramid entry. If Talbot are interest in this they will regret it. Joining the pyramid will mean any Junior club will lose their magic; what makes them tic, they will just become another run of the mill Scottish side. The Junior game should not be included in any such promotion system

Wha's like us?!! Football is quite different in the Juniors compared to the *eeek* Seniors.

Different laws, teams sizes, ground standards... the list goes on and on!

image.png.15982e12627aefeae6331b43762492a0.png

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1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

Wha's like us?!! Football is quite different in the Juniors compared to the *eeek* Seniors.

Different laws, teams sizes, ground standards... the list goes on and on!

image.png.15982e12627aefeae6331b43762492a0.png

Agreed Cmon, from what I've seen so far there are different levels.
What are the pros and cons of Juniors teams going senior or staying

Here is a list of some pros and cons of joining the senior league system from what I have learned.
The list is non-exclusive and is open to expansion from anyone.
This is obviously my take but I'm sure many can add genuine points for and against

PROS
1.     Possible promotion to higher divisions, ( no end to asperations, division, 3, 2, championship etc..).
2.     Entry to Scottish Cup.
3.     Standard of football at a higher level ?.
4.     Rise in attendances.
5.     Easier to get new fans involved due to being a senior team.
6.     Youth team/Development squad in the reserve league.
7.     A share of money from the SFA pot (potentially).
8.     Easier to get sponsorship ?.
9.     If reached a higher division eventually allowed to vote on decisions.
10.   Allegedly a higher level of football.
11.   More chance of exposure of their youth players going to a higher level, thus making money from them allowing to grow.
12.   Leaving a league where possibility quite a few teams will exit, leaving league standard very low.
13.   Better standard of stadium
14.   ?
15.   ?
16.   ?


CONS
1.   Staying in a structure which is known.
2.   Promotion to reach the highest division in your league, the junior premiership, either west, east or north.
3.   Entry to the Scottish Junior Cup.
4.   Knowing club is stable at the league they are in.
5.   Having to change stadia to fall inline with the Senior level, so if staying juniors can keep the way they are and not need to spend money that they don't have.
6.   ?
7.   ?
8.   ?


Am I 'for' or 'against' Junior teams going senior, yes I most definitely are 'FOR' but obviously only the ones who want to do so or have asperations of doing so.
I have watched many games, junior, senior, reserve games and my views are taken from the whole experience of watching these games, going to these games and sampling everything that is involved with the games at each of those levels.

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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Agreed Cmon, from what I've seen so far there are different levels.
What are the pros and cons of Juniors teams going senior or staying
Here is a list of some pros and cons of joining the senior league system from what I have learned.
The list is non-exclusive and is open to expansion from anyone.
This is obviously my take but I'm sure many can add genuine points for and against
PROS
1.     Possible promotion to higher divisions, ( no end to asperations, division, 3, 2, championship etc..).
2.     Entry to Scottish Qualifying cup.
3.     Standard of football at a higher level ?.
4.     Rise in attendances.
5.     Easier to get new fans involved due to being a senior team.
6.     Youth team/Development squad in the reserve league.
7.     A share of money from the SFA pot (potentially).
8.     Easier to get sponsorship ?.
9.     If reached a higher division eventually allowed to vote on decisions.
10.   Allegedly a higher level of football.
11.   More chance of exposure of their youth players going to a higher level, thus making money from them allowing to grow.
12.   Leaving a league where possibility quite a few teams will exit, leaving league standard very low.
13.   Better standard of stadium
14.   ?
15.   ?
16.   ?

CONS
1.   Staying in a structure which is known.
2.   Promotion to reach the highest division in your league, the junior premiership, either west, east or north.
3.   Entry to the Scottish Junior Cup.
4.   Knowing club is stable at the league they are in.
5.   Having to change stadia to fall inline with the Senior level, so if staying juniors can keep the way they are and not need to spend money that they don't have.
6.   ?
7.   ?
8.   ?

Am I 'for' or 'against' Junior teams going senior, yes I most definitely are 'FOR' but obviously only the ones who want to do so or have asperations of doing so.
I have watched many games, junior, senior, reserve games and my views are taken from the whole experience of watching these games, going to these games and sampling everything that is involved with the games at each of those levels.

I agree with your list of pros and cons and have said for a long time that the best answer is for the sjfa to split, there clearly are a large number of clubs against going senior and they should never be made to do something they dont want to. That said these clubs shouldnt be able to hold the other clubs back.
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33 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Agreed Cmon, from what I've seen so far there are different levels.
What are the pros and cons of Juniors teams going senior or staying

Here is a list of some pros and cons of joining the senior league system from what I have learned.
The list is non-exclusive and is open to expansion from anyone.
This is obviously my take but I'm sure many can add genuine points for and against

PROS
1.     Possible promotion to higher divisions, ( no end to asperations, division, 3, 2, championship etc..).
2.     Entry to Scottish Qualifying cup.
3.     Standard of football at a higher level ?.
4.     Rise in attendances.
5.     Easier to get new fans involved due to being a senior team.
6.     Youth team/Development squad in the reserve league.
7.     A share of money from the SFA pot (potentially).
8.     Easier to get sponsorship ?.
9.     If reached a higher division eventually allowed to vote on decisions.
10.   Allegedly a higher level of football.
11.   More chance of exposure of their youth players going to a higher level, thus making money from them allowing to grow.
12.   Leaving a league where possibility quite a few teams will exit, leaving league standard very low.
13.   Better standard of stadium
14.   ?
15.   ?
16.   ?


CONS
1.   Staying in a structure which is known.
2.   Promotion to reach the highest division in your league, the junior premiership, either west, east or north.
3.   Entry to the Scottish Junior Cup.
4.   Knowing club is stable at the league they are in.
5.   Having to change stadia to fall inline with the Senior level, so if staying juniors can keep the way they are and not need to spend money that they don't have.
6.   ?
7.   ?
8.   ?


Am I 'for' or 'against' Junior teams going senior, yes I most definitely are 'FOR' but obviously only the ones who want to do so or have asperations of doing so.
I have watched many games, junior, senior, reserve games and my views are taken from the whole experience of watching these games, going to these games and sampling everything that is involved with the games at each of those levels.

There is no Scottish Qualifying Cup, you either have a Licence to allow you SFA membership and therefore entry, or you don't.

There is no obligation to become Licenced and spend money on ground improvements if you don't want to (or change stadia).  A Licence allows for Scottish Cup entry and entry to Lowland/Highland League.  For many clubs, the latter will not be a concern short term.

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4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There is no Scottish Qualifying Cup, you either have a Licence to allow you SFA membership and therefore entry, or you don't.

There is no obligation to become Licenced and spend money on ground improvements if you don't want to (or change stadia).  A Licence allows for Scottish Cup entry and entry to Lowland/Highland League.  For many clubs, the latter will not be a concern short term.

Yes apologies about the qualifying cup, I was more thinking of the preliminary rounds before the main rounds where the teams form higher divisions enter..

The rest most know about as I believed that no ground improvement is needed to join senior ranks only until your team reach a certain division or tier then grounds are required to be a certain standard.

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22 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There is no Scottish Qualifying Cup, you either have a Licence to allow you SFA membership and therefore entry, or you don't.

Camelon won the equivalent of a Scottish Qualifying Cup last season and will play in the Scottish Cup this season as a result.

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15 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Camelon won the equivalent of a Scottish Qualifying Cup last season and will play in the Scottish Cup this season as a result.

It's not the Scottish Qualifying Cup though, that has been retired.  The Alex Jack Cup offers the winners (in the EoS) the chance to qualify by beating the SoS equivalent.  If the West come on board who knows if that would continue.

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30 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Yes apologies about the qualifying cup, I was more thinking of the preliminary rounds before the main rounds where the teams form higher divisions enter..

The rest most know about as I believed that no ground improvement is needed to join senior ranks only until your team reach a certain division or tier then grounds are required to be a certain standard.

In order to gain promotion to the Lowland League, you need to have an SFA Licence, and yes, there are some basic ground requirements which now includes floodlights.

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1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

It's not the Scottish Qualifying Cup though, that has been retired.  The Alex Jack Cup offers the winners (in the EoS) the chance to qualify by beating the SoS equivalent.  If the West come on board who knows if that would continue.

I suppose if the West had a big move of Junior teams joining the seniors like the East did a few years ago, say another 20 teams then  I don't see any existing junior teams having any gateways through to the Main Scottish Cup like the winners of the 3 junior regions and the winner of the Junior Scottish Cup. 

 

I suppose the list I added was for people to look at and run down what they think the pros and cons are and consider both sides before they come to their own decision

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2 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:


I agree with your list of pros and cons and have said for a long time that the best answer is for the sjfa to split, there clearly are a large number of clubs against going senior and they should never be made to do something they dont want to. That said these clubs shouldnt be able to hold the other clubs back.

If people don't want to go they don't have to is correct but in reality their is no differences. The pros that are for Camelon could have easily been achieved by SJFA a fixture list joining up to get promotion to lowland league. But some people refuse to change.

 

The Junior cup became diluted when east teams left so does it have the utopia for Forth Wanderers if they can draw Auchinleck Talbot in teh West Of scotland Cup is the draw for it being in the Junior cup any different. In the past they may have faced a Bo'ness, Linlithgow Rose the real ones not the kid on that they could have faced in the past. Is Lochee or Whitburn that big draw for them I don't think it is.

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8 minutes ago, KRRAdamslie said:

Also wouldn’t any such pyramid system to the Seniors require he approval of League 2 clubs? No chance any of them would vote for such a thing. Death wish

You seem to be a bit behind the game..........both East Stirlingshire and Berwick Rangers have been relegated to the Lowland League if you hadn't noticed. Edinburgh City and Cove Rangers taking their place.

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You seem to be a bit behind the game..........both East Stirlingshire and Berwick Rangers have been relegated to the Lowland League if you hadn't noticed. Edinburgh City and Cove Rangers taking their place.

No I get that. Would junior teams be promoted to the lowland league through a playoff system?
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3 minutes ago, KRRAdamslie said:


No I get that. Would junior teams be promoted to the lowland league through a playoff system?

 

You said no way would SPFL clubs vote for relegation, that already  happened about 5 years ago.

There wont be Junior teams if you join up with the Pyramid.

Any new West League would play-off with the East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues for promotion to LL, although chances are the Lowland League would relegate 2 or perhaps 3 clubs eventually.

Edited by Burnie_man
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Also wouldn’t any such pyramid system to the Seniors require he approval of League 2 clubs? No chance any of them would vote for such a thing. Death wish
The SPFL have 0 involvment in the pyramid working group so they don't get a say on the matter. SPFL is only on the professional game body which has main function of setting terms of promotion/relegation between SPFL2 & HL/LL plus the geographic boundry of HL & LL.
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You said no way would SPFL clubs vote for relegation, that already  happened about 5 years ago.
There wont be Junior teams if you join up with the Pyramid.
Any new West League would play-off with the East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues for promotion to LL, although chances are the Lowland League would relegate 2 or perhaps 3 clubs eventually.

That makes sense. I’m still not completely comfortable with the idea but if the clubs are in favour of it I will be as well. A playoff system between the East, South and West which would lead to a playoff final between the winner and the lowest places lowland club side could work.
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