Junior football, what is the future?

[Guest]

Doubt anybody is pushing hard against the pyramid other than the SFA making a complete hash of it. No doubt one day a team with licence from the West will move up and enjoy a day out at Berwick or East Stirling.
If Berwick or East Stirling are still the LL that is.

So are West clubs interested or not? Your first post said you didn't think they were and yet your next reply suggests they are looking to progress, but by the sounds of it only when everyone else steps aside and let's the sjfa do as they wish?

[Cyclizine]

20 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Since then the SFA were told by the HL and NRSJFA that they weren't interested on working on the pyramid and the ERSJFA opted for a split division format for 2019-20 despite being told by the SFA that only a 16 club single division could be accepted at tier 6. Don't doubt that the WRSJFA still wants in but subsequent events suggest that it's not at all clear that the other two regions do and that makes the posture of keeping the SJFA intact on pyramid entry a non-starter even before issues like the Tayside boundary problem and EoS/LL opposition to a second east tier 6 feeder get added to the mix.

When were the SFA told by the HFL and NRJFA they weren't interested? The HFL is already in the pyramid, they won't relegate anyone as there's nowhere to go below them at present, they can't promote into the league, as there's no -one interested (looking at you, Banks o' Dee). There have been meetings between the two and also the NCL. NRJFA have declined to be involved, the NCL have expressed interest. The issue in the North is what happens with the ERJFA clubs North of the Tay.

[FairWeatherFan]

25 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

When were the SFA told by the HFL and NRJFA they weren't interested? The HFL is already in the pyramid, they won't relegate anyone as there's nowhere to go below them at present, they can't promote into the league, as there's no -one interested (looking at you, Banks o' Dee). There have been meetings between the two and also the NCL. NRJFA have declined to be involved, the NCL have expressed interest. The issue in the North is what happens with the ERJFA clubs North of the Tay.

The PWG spun off into Highland and Lowland sub-groups after September. While the Lowland sub-group has continued, the Highland sub-group seemed to end after the initial meeting in November.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/1744053/we-cant-offer-spots-in-the-highland-league-says-secretary-rod-houston/

Rod Houston HFL secretary

“The fact of the matter is that the pyramid system is an all-Scotland arrangement governed by the Scottish FA. There is a working group, on which the Highland League is represented, that meets regularly in Glasgow to monitor the working of the pyramid and consider possible routes for development.

“One such route was to consider the introduction of a pyramid tier below the Highland League in the North of Scotland with the North Region Junior Superleague housing what would have been called Tier 6.

“Part of that process was for representatives of the Highland League to meet with representatives of the North Region Junior FA to consider the possibility. That meeting took place in Huntly on November 18, last year and in the course of a cordial discussion, the NRJFA officials made it crystal clear that there was no appetite amongst junior clubs to become Tier 6 in the north, as indeed was their right so to do.”

[Cyclizine]

59 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The PWG spun off into Highland and Lowland sub-groups after September. While the Lowland sub-group has continued, the Highland sub-group seemed to end after the initial meeting in November.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/1744053/we-cant-offer-spots-in-the-highland-league-says-secretary-rod-houston/

Rod Houston HFL secretary

“The fact of the matter is that the pyramid system is an all-Scotland arrangement governed by the Scottish FA. There is a working group, on which the Highland League is represented, that meets regularly in Glasgow to monitor the working of the pyramid and consider possible routes for development.

“One such route was to consider the introduction of a pyramid tier below the Highland League in the North of Scotland with the North Region Junior Superleague housing what would have been called Tier 6.

“Part of that process was for representatives of the Highland League to meet with representatives of the North Region Junior FA to consider the possibility. That meeting took place in Huntly on November 18, last year and in the course of a cordial discussion, the NRJFA officials made it crystal clear that there was no appetite amongst junior clubs to become Tier 6 in the north, as indeed was their right so to do.”

I've seen this before but I still don't see where the HFL has said they're not interested. They're the tier 5 league; I don't think it's incumbent on them to set up tier 6 leagues in the North. We're not asking the Lowland League to set up a West of Scotland League.

[ekok]

Yes they are quite happy with the present set up, no promotion in and no relegation out, clearly a vital and vibrant  part of the Pyramid to take Scottish Football forward. And oh yes with all of that they happily accept exactly the same winner of their league in play offs as the Lowland League, which currently has about 60 Clubs feeding in and as and when the Tier 6 situation is resolved regarding " The Juniors" this could rise to about 160 Clubs ie everybody at Tier 6. If I was them I would keep head down as well

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

I've seen this before but I still don't see where the HFL has said they're not interested. They're the tier 5 league; I don't think it's incumbent on them to set up tier 6 leagues in the North. We're not asking the Lowland League to set up a West of Scotland League.

The not interested is being used collectively HFL & NRJFA. At the very least going by that article the HFL went from "we can't offer spots in the HFL" to actually offering Banks O'Dee an invite.

As for not asking the Lowland League to set up a WoSFL that's not exactly true. Plenty of people round here have suggested the LL and EoSFL at times to help start up LL2 or LL2 West/East or a WoSFL. Which is based on BSC trying to drum up interest in a WoSFL, EoSFL offer of supporting a WoSFL and the LL's working group investigating a LL2.

[Pyramidic]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The PWG spun off into Highland and Lowland sub-groups after September. While the Lowland sub-group has continued, the Highland sub-group seemed to end after the initial meeting in November.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/1744053/we-cant-offer-spots-in-the-highland-league-says-secretary-rod-houston/

Rod Houston HFL secretary

“The fact of the matter is that the pyramid system is an all-Scotland arrangement governed by the Scottish FA. There is a working group, on which the Highland League is represented, that meets regularly in Glasgow to monitor the working of the pyramid and consider possible routes for development.

“One such route was to consider the introduction of a pyramid tier below the Highland League in the North of Scotland with the North Region Junior Superleague housing what would have been called Tier 6.

“Part of that process was for representatives of the Highland League to meet with representatives of the North Region Junior FA to consider the possibility. That meeting took place in Huntly on November 18, last year and in the course of a cordial discussion, the NRJFA officials made it crystal clear that there was no appetite amongst junior clubs to become Tier 6 in the north, as indeed was their right so to do.”

Does anyone know if TJ attended this meeting or whether the NRJFA officials attended independently?

If it is the latter this would then lead to the key issue of why the WRJFA and ERJFA are not represented at Lowland Sub-Group meetings?

The lack of representation by the WRJFA and ERJFA at such important meetings is very hard to understand and justify.

 

Can anyone explain to me the logic of their absence?

Edited June 9, 2019 by Pyramidic

[SensibleSoccer]

On 08/06/2019 at 19:33, LongTimeLurker said:

The main problem with shifting the boundary further north is there is already a very large population imbalance between the LL and HL catchments. It only takes one of the HL, LL, SPFL and SFA to be opposed for no change to be possible, so it's no sure thing that it can happen.

The boundary part confuses me too

that tier 5 is split along HL and LL, what would the populationh be in each catchment? I assume at least 4m in LL if not closer to 4.5m of Scotland’s 5m population.

surely tier 5 should be split along the same logical geography as the juniors, N (HL) E (rename the LL to EL) and W (create a new division at tier 5).

Then invite tayside teams to the EL (I assume the geographical  split of the juniors worked ok as it was)

[lowenan]

Or do like Germany, and give more promotion spots to the more populated area. That way you can keep to Lowland League for both the east and west. Winner of LL gets promoted, bottom of SPFL2 gets relegated. Second in LL, winner of HL, and second bottom in SPFL2 have a playoff similar to how it is today.

[Enigma]

Or do like Germany, and give more promotion spots to the more populated area. That way you can keep to Lowland League for both the east and west. Winner of LL gets promoted, bottom of SPFL2 gets relegated. Second in LL, winner of HL, and second bottom in SPFL2 have a playoff similar to how it is today.

 

Not sure this is a perfect way of doing it. You can have the scenario of a team finishing second by goal difference missing out on promotion in the HL but a team 30 points off first in the LL being promoted.

[Guest]

The boundary part confuses me too

that tier 5 is split along HL and LL, what would the populationh be in each catchment? I assume at least 4m in LL if not closer to 4.5m of Scotland’s 5m population.

surely tier 5 should be split along the same logical geography as the juniors, N (HL) E (rename the LL to EL) and W (create a new division at tier 5).

Then invite tayside teams to the EL (I assume the geographical  split of the juniors worked ok as it was)

The boundary line has worked for the past 5 years. I dont see a need to change it. Create a wosfl to sit at the same level as the eosfl at tier six, feeding the LL and its job done. No need to use any form of set up the juniors have, particularly when what you currently have works for all involved (promotion spaces excluded) .... Apart from some of the junior clubs who are unfortunately North of the line.

 

This is the frustrating thing, the juniors have now had 2 bites at the cherry to become involved and both times, because it doesn't suit them to make changes to anything they do, they have remained as they were. Other well run leagues should not be adopting what the juniors do, just because the juniors want in, how and when they like.

 

[santheman]

12 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

Does anyone know if TJ attended this meeting or whether the NRJFA officials attended independently?

If it is the latter this would then lead to the key issue of why the WRJFA and ERJFA are not represented at Lowland Sub-Group meetings?

The lack of representation by the WRJFA and ERJFA at such important meetings is very hard to understand and justify.

 

Can anyone explain to me the logic of their absence?

Lack of interest? ?

[Ped]

I agree junior football should now be left in a closed shop and have there big Scottish Cup rights revoked they had there chance to be involved

[santheman]

1 hour ago, Ped said:

I agree junior football should now be left in a closed shop and have there big Scottish Cup rights revoked they had there chance to be involved

And still do until told differently by the SFA

[SensibleSoccer]

4 hours ago, G4Mac said:

The boundary line has worked for the past 5 years. I dont see a need to change it. Create a wosfl to sit at the same level as the eosfl at tier six, feeding the LL and its job done. No need to use any form of set up the juniors have, particularly when what you currently have works for all involved (promotion spaces excluded) .... Apart from some of the junior clubs who are unfortunately North of the line.

 

This is the frustrating thing, the juniors have now had 2 bites at the cherry to become involved and both times, because it doesn't suit them to make changes to anything they do, they have remained as they were. Other well run leagues should not be adopting what the juniors do, just because the juniors want in, how and when they like.

 

That’s clearly incorrect, my understanding is that the teams in and around Dundee (Lochee, Broughty, Carnoustie etc.) currently have nowhere to go (Lowland is outside their area and Highland aren’t letting anyone in, even if they did it’s too far away).

I’m not advocating copying the juniors because they’re the juniors, I’m pointing out that the geographical split doesn’t make any sense, when

1. Tayside teams can’t fit in

2. The geographical split between Highland and Lowland Leagues represents a population split of about 10%/90%.

so I figured that the geographical split that was there before probably makes sense, North, East and West.

[Ginaro]

9 minutes ago, SensibleSoccer said:

and Highland aren’t letting anyone in, even if they did it’s too far away)

The HL, just like the LL, can't let anyone in who doesn't have an SFA licence. The only club north of the dividing line with a licence is Banks o'Dee, who have so far declined to join. The issue for Tayside clubs is there's no league below the HL, but that's mostly up to the Tayside and North Junior clubs to sort out.

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, SensibleSoccer said:

That’s clearly incorrect, my understanding is that the teams in and around Dundee (Lochee, Broughty, Carnoustie etc.) currently have nowhere to go (Lowland is outside their area and Highland aren’t letting anyone in, even if they did it’s too far away).

I’m not advocating copying the juniors because they’re the juniors, I’m pointing out that the geographical split doesn’t make any sense, when

1. Tayside teams can’t fit in

2. The geographical split between Highland and Lowland Leagues represents a population split of about 10%/90%.

so I figured that the geographical split that was there before probably makes sense, North, East and West.

The splits more like 80-20. And even with the 3 region split there's a lot of people that would prefer Tayside teams in the north section.

Population is also a bit of a red herring in this, as it comes down the make up of clubs.

The Highland area with HFL, NCL, North Region & North of Tay East Region clubs = 74

The Lowland area with LL, EOS, SOS, West Region & South of Tay East Region clubs = around 140 odd with possible changes this summer.

Twice as many clubs in the Lowland, but not as dramatic a difference population suggests. And until there's more than a handful of licensed West of Scotland clubs the HL/LL split won't change anytime soon.

[Whitburn Vale]

The "travelling" line being peddled for tayside sides north is a hutch of crap.

As I've mentioned before on other threads,with the opening of the new AWPR dual carriageway round Aberdeen,30 mins of travel time has been whipped aff.

The A9 being dualled between Inverness and Perth will help too.

If they eventually set up a league below the SHFL then that's where the Tayside teams should go,as the boundary line dictates.

 

[Marten]

36 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

The "travelling" line being peddled for tayside sides north is a hutch of crap.

As I've mentioned before on other threads,with the opening of the new AWPR dual carriageway round Aberdeen,30 mins of travel time has been whipped aff.

The A9 being dualled between Inverness and Perth will help too.

If they eventually set up a league below the SHFL then that's where the Tayside teams should go,as the boundary line dictates.

 

I went to Armadale yesterday for the East Region League Cup final. I also went to Cove Rangers v Berwick rangers in the play-offs early May. From Dundee, Cove was much quicker to get to than Armadale...

North juniors shouldn't be much more travel for Tayside teams. Obviously, if they'd go up to the HL, the travel distance gets worse. But still, even a team like Clachnacuddin is much easier to get to than the likes of Dalbeattie. Brora and Wick are the only real outliers here.

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

The HL, just like the LL, can't let anyone in who doesn't have an SFA licence. The only club north of the dividing line with a licence is Banks o'Dee, who have so far declined to join. The issue for Tayside clubs is there's no league below the HL, but that's mostly up to the Tayside and North Junior clubs to sort out.

That claim that the HL aren't letting anyone in, hasn't been tested since they committed to the pyramid. Apparently, they even invited BoD to replace Cove. What else are they supposed to do? They can hardly force them...

As there is no pyramid in the north, any Tayside team (or North juniors or NCL) should be able to apply for a license. If they get it, they can apply to the HL. Only if they'd then be turned down, this could be held against the HL. The question whether or not the HL would admit a Tayside team like Lochee has never been tested, so nobody can say whether or not they deem them "too far away" to let them join.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Marten