Junior football, what is the future?

[LongTimeLurker]

and the Highland League isn't really interested in the pyramid and hasn't made any concrete moves to have tier 6 feeders meaning the Tayside junior clubs are likely to be stuck in limbo in pyramid terms unless the boundary gets shifted up to around Montrose.

[Shite state of affairs]

Would it be daft to suggest Tayside be included in EoS, and that EoS be regionalised further itself with conferences (informally if not enough teams for a clean divisional split)?

[LongTimeLurker]

The main problem with shifting the boundary further north is there is already a very large population imbalance between the LL and HL catchments. It only takes one of the HL, LL, SPFL and SFA to be opposed for no change to be possible, so it's no sure thing that it can happen.

[invergowrie arab]

It's gone on on long enough. 

If the SFA had any gumption they would start the league in 20/21 and invite applications now, closing before Christmas.

Rather than pull in amateur and island teams simply do an all in with new applicants and teams in EOS and come up with two geographical leagues. If the new WoS league is all teams from West Lothian & Falkirk plus Clydebank then so be it.

I have a feeling once people realise its last chance saloon it won't be though.

[santheman]

1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said:

It's gone on on long enough. 

If the SFA had any gumption they would start the league in 20/21 and invite applications now, closing before Christmas.

Rather than pull in amateur and island teams simply do an all in with new applicants and teams in EOS and come up with two geographical leagues. If the new WoS league is all teams from West Lothian & Falkirk plus Clydebank then so be it.

I have a feeling once people realise its last chance saloon it won't be though.

Nothing will happen until the SFA come out with a definitive statement one way or another to the SJFA clubs about their mandate to join the pyramid as a unit. Clubs are waiting with bated breath on that announcement.

If they say no to that which they inevitably will then it will be up to the clubs to decide which course of action to take.

Whether that is choosing to remain Junior, the WRJFA choosing to go it alone, individual clubs deciding to get together to form a new WOSL, or the SFA sticking 2 fingers up at the SJFA and setting up a new WOSL themselves is open to debate.

Edited June 8, 2019 by santheman

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, santheman said:

Nothing will happen until the SFA come out with a definitive statement one way or another to the SJFA clubs about their mandate to join the pyramid as a unit. Clubs are waiting with bated breath on that announcement.

It's been blatantly obvious for months that this self-declared 'mandate' was an absolute non-starter, so any competent club should have been looking for the exit door instead of believing some self-serving pish from a blazer. 

[santheman]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

It's been blatantly obvious for months that this self-declared 'mandate' was an absolute non-starter, so any competent club should have been looking for the exit door instead of believing some self-serving pish from a blazer. 

Clubs will not act until they hear it from the horses mouth regardless of what their personal opinions are.

Do you actually know anything about the Juniors other than what you've read on these forums. I don't mean that as a dig but a genuine question

[AlanCamelonfan]

6 minutes ago, santheman said:

Clubs will not act until they hear it from the horses mouth regardless of what their personal opinions are.

Do you actually know anything about the Juniors other than what you've read on these forums. I don't mean that as a dig but a genuine question

I think most people are looking at it from a common sense point of view. But I'm not sure the appetite is their in the West for the pyramid but if the west was dropped into the pyrmaid their wouldn't be any objection to it.

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, santheman said:

Nothing will happen until the SFA come out with a definitive statement one way or another to the SJFA clubs about their mandate to join the pyramid as a unit. Clubs are waiting with bated breath on that announcement.

If they say no to that which they inevitably will then it will be up to the clubs to decide which course of action to take.

Whether that is choosing to remain Junior, the WRJFA choosing to go it alone, individual clubs deciding to get together to form a new WOSL, or the SFA sticking 2 fingers up at the SJFA and setting up a new WOSL themselves is open to debate.

By the sounds of things the SFA punted everything until the next PWG meeting, which won't be until September presumably. The SFA aren't going to make definitive statements. To them its all up to the PWG to resolve.

All these Working Groups are basically a dead end which is why there are versions dating back nearly 20 years.

[Arthurlie1981]

It's been blatantly obvious for months that this self-declared 'mandate' was an absolute non-starter, so any competent club should have been looking for the exit door instead of believing some self-serving pish from a blazer. 

Where would they go though. To a starter league where there crowds would drop? It easy from people outside to make statements like this.

Let’s be honest here the EOS league was going no where until the junior teams came across. Any new west league would be the same to begin with without the bigger clubs. We need a pyramid that works. That means the SFA taking the bull by the horns and for once in this whole situation LEAD. They need to debunk all the ridiculous theories that are out there and give straight answers to clubs questions.

If after all this we still aren’t forward then create a west league that will for-fill the pyramid but it will be ask weak as the SoS has been.

[Guest]

To be fair the eos was a strong and vibrant league up until its clubs took a punt on the pyramid, where those in a position to do so and the stronger sides amongst the eos league moved to the LL. The rest then spent a few years trying to catch up, which they did. The ersjfa clubs moving across made it better absolutely, but to say it was going no where is a bit of a manipulation if fact.

Would wrsjfa clubs atye dances drop? Maybe, maybe not,if enough clubs moved then it wouldn't have a drastic impact. I wouldn't think attendances are the only thing holding up progress.

[Arthurlie1981]

To be fair the eos was a strong and vibrant league up until its clubs took a punt on the pyramid, where those in a position to do so and the stronger sides amongst the eos league moved to the LL. The rest then spent a few years trying to catch up, which they did. The ersjfa clubs moving across made it better absolutely, but to say it was going no where is a bit of a manipulation if fact.

Would wrsjfa clubs atye dances drop? Maybe, maybe not,if enough clubs moved then it wouldn't have a drastic impact. I wouldn't think attendances are the only thing holding up progress.

I’m sceptical it was vibrant league compared to the juniors but I agree if enough clubs move then there won’t be an impact. Clubs don’t want to gamble with their futures without know what it would look like.

We need proper leadership from those who should be leading.

[Guest]

I can assure you the old eos league was a very good level. Clubs can communicate with one another and take their future in their own hands. If enough feel the move is of benefit they can approach the sfa on their own to form a wos league. Why wait in the sjfa to deliver when they haven't progressed anything thus far. They failed to show interest 5 years ago, they have failed to secure the current done deal and won't make any progress until they accept an all for one, one for all approach isnt going to work.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

Clubs will not act until they hear it from the horses mouth regardless of what their personal opinions are.

Clubs in the East of Scotland did not need to hear from the SFA or some braying dinosaur of a Junior official for confirmation of where things stood - Kelty recognised that the Junior 'mandate' was going nowhere years ago and moved, then half the rest of them followed suit once they all realised that the game was a bogey. There's no obstacle to clubs setting up a WoS league with the assistance of officials who already have experience of handling this level of administration in the EoS - that offer still seems to be on the table. It's time for Junior clubs in the west to shite or get off the pot then. 

The only intervention that the SFA should be making at this point in the process is to push for the creation of a West league regardless of what Junior clubs decide to do. 

1 hour ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Where would they go though. To a starter league where there crowds would drop? It easy from people outside to make statements like this.
 

 

If you want to be in the pyramid then yes. Kelty moved from their league to what many Junior clubs would consider a lower status and lower crowd league and it hasn't exactly done them any harm. 

Quote

Let’s be honest here the EOS league was going no where until the junior teams came across. 

That's not honesty, that's revisionism. There were already ambitious EoS clubs who were pushing to get into the Lowland League and who were already making a decent fist of things in cup competitions against the levels above: the likes of Leith Athletic and Lothian Thistle HV were not just sitting around waiting for the league to fold or for some Juniors to come in and provide a big payday. Their chances of making the step-up have only been set back significantly in the short term by the inclusion of some strong Junior teams into the league as well - it is to their credit and that of the EoS league as a whole that they've proven so welcoming instead of maintaining a closed shop. 

[Arthurlie1981]

I can assure you the old eos league was a very good level. Clubs can communicate with one another and take their future in their own hands. If enough feel the move is of benefit they can approach the sfa on their own to form a wos league. Why wait in the sjfa to deliver when they haven't progressed anything thus far. They failed to show interest 5 years ago, they have failed to secure the current done deal and won't make any progress until they accept an all for one, one for all approach isnt going to work.

Who says they haven’t accepted that it won’t happen with the current all in mandate? How do you know the SFA will allow a new league to be created? Where should these clubs that move to? There were options on in the East for clubs to move too; there isint in the west. The sfa could have end all the debate when the made their announcements regarding next season, but they didn’t. Is that a tacit approval that they want the west in as is? I still believe the the only way out of this mess is for a WOSFL from season 2020/21 but that will need the sfa to sanction a new league and if they really wanted that they would do it.

As I have said before junior clubs did express an interest in joining the pyramid and it seems the Lowland League/EOSFL want to rewrite history to suit their own narrative by saying there wasn’t.

[Guest]

The sfa want a feeder league in the West for the LL, so they can have a pyramid structure covering the main areas of the Lowland area, they made that clear a considerable while ago. You miss my point regarding the west clubs. At present they don't have somewhere to go, however the eosfl offered to help and assist set up a wosfl so that clubs did have somewhere to go in the West should they wish to join the pyramid structure. What I was trying to say, maybe not well, is that the west clubs can take the power away from the sjfa and forge their own future rather than wait on one man, who is at best failing miserably to follow through on the mandate he was given and at worst doing everything he can to save his job, and assume control of their own future in the pyramid.

 

 

[Arthurlie1981]

That's not honesty, that's revisionism. There were already ambitious EoS clubs who were pushing to get into the Lowland League and who were already making a decent fist of things in cup competitions against the levels above: the likes of Leith Athletic and Lothian Thistle HV were not just sitting around waiting for the league to fold or for some Juniors to come in and provide a big payday. Their chances of making the step-up have only been set back significantly in the short term by the inclusion of some strong Junior teams into the league as well - it is to their credit and that of the EoS league as a whole that they've proven so welcoming instead of maintaining a closed shop. 

Of course there was some clubs who were pushing on, but in the main the standard wasn’t great. I remember speaking to the committee of a club who left and rejoined the league who said that apart from 2/3 teams the standard wasn’t good. I’m not criticising them, they seem to be better run in a lot of ways to the SJFA and have done well with their conferences this season.

[LongTimeLurker]

17 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

...As I have said before junior clubs did express an interest in joining the pyramid and it seems the Lowland League/EOSFL want to rewrite history to suit their own narrative by saying there wasn’t.

Since then the SFA were told by the HL and NRSJFA that they weren't interested on working on the pyramid and the ERSJFA opted for a split division format for 2019-20 despite being told by the SFA that only a 16 club single division could be accepted at tier 6. Don't doubt that the WRSJFA still wants in but subsequent events suggest that it's not at all clear that the other two regions do and that makes the posture of keeping the SJFA intact on pyramid entry a non-starter even before issues like the Tayside boundary problem and EoS/LL opposition to a second east tier 6 feeder get added to the mix.

[GNU_Linux]

Since then the SFA were told by the HL and NRSJFA that they weren't interested on working on the pyramid and the ERSJFA opted for a split division format for 2019-20 despite being told by the SFA that only a 16 club single division could be accepted at tier 6. Don't doubt that the WRSJFA still wants in but subsequent events suggest that it's not at all clear that the other two regions do and that makes the posture of keeping the SJFA intact on pyramid entry a non-starter even before issues like the Tayside boundary problem and EoS/LL opposition to a second east tier 6 feeder get added to the mix.

From my understanding the East region was never made aware of the 16 team requirement & only came to light after the EOS meeting Petrie & Maxwell attended. I'm not privvy to matters out east but I'd guess they too were getting the 'in at tier six ' line. I'm all unsure if the SFA were aware of the split Superleague changes being proposed.

[Pyramidic]

27 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

 What I was trying to say, maybe not well, is that the west clubs can take the power away from the sjfa and forge their own future rather than wait on one man, who is at best failing miserably to follow through on the mandate he was given and at worst doing everything he can to save his job, and assume control of their own future in the pyramid.

It may be an odd question to ask but I will ask it.

Why are WRJFA clubs so afraid to speak out against TJ/SJFA Executive re Pyramid progress and lack of feedback?  What special hold does he and the SJFA Executive have over them?

Is it issues of respect? loyalty (to the man and the grade)? unwillingness to rock the boat? timidity? fear of repercussions? or is it simply sincere patience that the matter will eventually be sorted out for the benefit of the whole membership?

Edited June 8, 2019 by Pyramidic