Junior football, what is the future?

[LongTimeLurker]

4 hours ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

What planet are you lot on?
The SOSL is not remotely interested in the Pyramid, they don't have anyone capable of joining the LL, they don't want to merge with the West Region, they've got their own set-up and are happy with it. I doubt that they care about any of it.

Basically agree with this. The only contentious issues lumbering over the horizon might be what happens to Bonnyton Thistle and whether a west junior club could ever try to use the SoS as a shortcut to the LL.

[Robert James]

4 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Presumably any Year One set up in the North would look like this:

There's only one club in that set up that could currently get promoted to the Highland League which is Banks O'Dee. So it's likely that the Tayside clubs wouldn't have to worry about travelling North for until they have clubs that are getting licensed. So Banks O'Dee would probably replace Fort William following the first season taking away one awkward trip a year for future Tayside clubs.

As for the Highland League the running tally for the last 10 years since they returned to 18 teams is as follows:

The current Top 6 in the North Super League are 4 Aberdeen based clubs, Culter who are south of Aberdeen and Montrose Roselea a former Tayside club. The 10 year standings for the North Super League also shows the most consistent teams in the North Region are from the Aberden area.

It'd take time to change the current Highland League but it is only going to become more convenient for Tayside area clubs as there isn't the depth in the North of Scotland. If all you do is look at the snapshot of what the Highland League is just now, then you have to think the same way about current Lowland League. Dundee to Dalbeattie, Dundee to Gretna, Dundee to Innerleithen, Dundee to Galashiels.

An interesting post. As an aside,  like many Highland League fans of other clubs, I very much enjoy the visit to Claggan Park. It is a popular day out, which usually results in going back home with 3 points, and usually embraces a few bevvies.  Other HFL clubs would not want to lose Fort, and I think Tayside clubs would be quite happy to go there once per season, if the North Region & Tayside clubs become Highland feeder pyramid league, with a much stronger/merged Superleague for the juniors.

Also, as a feeder league, the NCL would represent the North & West Highlands/Islands, giving depth and (a separate) geographical balance to the northern pyramid.    

[lowenan]

On 13.3.2019 at 08:54, jc1 said:

As league stands

There are some tight battles to get into next year’s top leagues.

Kinnoull Juniors vs Dundee East Craigie can be an important decider, while Harthill holds all the cards against Stoneyburn and Rosyth in the south. 

[parsforlife]

There are some tight battles to get into next year’s top leagues.

Kinnoull Juniors vs Dundee East Craigie can be an important decider, while Harthill holds all the cards against Stoneyburn and Rosyth in the south. 

 

EoS premier for comparison.

 

Can we seriously have a structure where that and the East juniors south premier are on the same level? Someone has honestly thought that through and thought it ok?

 

[Hillonearth]

8 hours ago, parsforlife said:

 

EoS premier for comparison.

 

Can we seriously have a structure where that and the East juniors south premier are on the same level? Someone has honestly thought that through and thought it ok?

 

We're now a lot closer to having something workable, but playing level wise the structure's all over the place.

Much like the West Premier winner will be likely to defeat the SoS winner nineteen time out of twenty in any playoff, the EoS champions will be equally likely to do similar to anything left in the remnants of the ERSJFA south.

The worst that can be said is that there will now be two leagues involved who will be nominally Tier 6 but strength-wise probably should be a couple of tiers below that. 

I'd be confident of the playoffs taking care of the situation almost every year in both cases, however one worry is that it's added another level of essentially nugatory playoffs to the calendar which means the season will need to end even earlier in order to facilitate them.

[parsforlife]

We're now a lot closer to having something workable, but playing level wise the structure's all over the place.
Much like the West Premier winner will be likely to defeat the SoS winner nineteen time out of twenty in any playoff, the EoS champions will be equally likely to do similar to anything left in the remnants of the ERSJFA south.
The worst that can be said is that there will now be two leagues involved who will be nominally Tier 6 but strength-wise probably should be a couple of tiers below that. 
I'd be confident of the playoffs taking care of the situation almost every year in both cases, however one worry is that it's added another level of essentially nugatory playoffs to the calendar which means the season will need to end even earlier in order to facilitate them.

SoS at least largely covers a separate geographical area, 'the best teams below tier 5 in that region'. It makes sense it is a tier 6, for now, should the west juniors come in, many get licensed then we should see a LL expansion of some kind happen(a single 2nd division, a LL2 west and LL2 east, or possibly in an extreme scenario having a west and an east league at tier 5)

At that point the vast majority of the clubs are going to come from EoS premier and west premiership.

If you had LL2 west at tier 6 then SoS feeding into that would make more sense.

In the east the problem is still not solved without a proper merger. I think the best we can hope for (and I'm being pretty optimistic here) is that the south region super league is treated as a tier 7 conference by the EoS next year.

[Jack Burton]

You are going to have the winners of the North Super play off against the winners of the South Super. The winner of that then play off against the winners of the EOS Premier. The winner of that then play off with the winner of the West Junior against South of Scotland league play off to decide who gets promoted to the Lowland league [emoji23]

It should be the West Junior league and The EOS Premier that feed into the Lowland league. Anything else is just nonsense.

[santheman]

44 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

You are going to have the winners of the North Super play off against the winners of the South Super. The winner of that then play off against the winners of the EOS Premier. The winner of that then play off with the winner of the West Junior against South of Scotland league play off to decide who gets promoted to the Lowland league

It should be the West Junior league and The EOS Premier that feed into the Lowland league. Anything else is just nonsense.

Let’s recap then.

When this thread started one of the main selling points was that the pyramid would eliminate the glass ceiling and would let any club in the land progress up the leagues as far as they were able with no obstacles put in their way.

Now you’re saying yeah (as long as they’re in the EOSL or WRSJFA)??

Realistically that’s what might probably happen but it’s a bit disrespectful to our Northern and Southern cousins who too often on here are a bit of an afterthought.

[Hillonearth]

44 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

You are going to have the winners of the North Super play off against the winners of the South Super. The winner of that then play off against the winners of the EOS Premier. The winner of that then play off with the winner of the West Junior against South of Scotland league play off to decide who gets promoted to the Lowland league

It should be the West Junior league and The EOS Premier that feed into the Lowland league. Anything else is just nonsense.

Which is the most confusing aspect of what now seems to be the situation. In the ERSJFA, the North will consistently win against the South - most of what strength remains in the East Juniors is around Tayside. 

It seems completely pointless for the North winners to then face two further sets of playoffs to attempt to secure a place in a league they're not going to be allowed into anyway based on geography and an arbitrary line on the map.

The West seems more cut and dried at least although it would be a genuine shock if any future SoS champions were to win out over the West champions, especially over two legs which always removes the random element of a one-off poor performance.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

Which is the most confusing aspect of what now seems to be the situation. In the ERSJFA, the North will consistently win against the South - most of what strength remains in the East Juniors is around Tayside. 

It seems completely pointless for the North winners to then face two further sets of playoffs to attempt to secure a place in a league they're not going to be allowed into anyway based on geography and an arbitrary line on the map.

The West seems more cut and dried at least although it would be a genuine shock if any future SoS champions were to win out over the West champions, especially over two legs which always removes the random element of a one-off poor performance.

Given the pyramid boundary problem, the (north) Tayside Juniors should become a Highland feeder league at tier 6. Possibly forming a merged Superleague with the north Juniors.  

Lochee Utd  v  Banks O'Dee           Broughty Athletic  v  Culter           Bridge of Don  v  Carnoustie Panmure                   Tayport v  Stonehaven

Would add strength and depth to both the North Region & (north) East Juniors, assuming the latter still want pyramid access ? Do they ?

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Robert James
additional question added

[superbigal]

Some have objected to the principle of the east juniors having 2 super leagues at level 6 as opposed to the 1 on the proposal which is in line with the current junior structure.

Just a reminder that the eos have actually had 3 leagues at level 6 this season.

 

The point being I believe all leagues should be allowed to dictate their own structure.

 

As it turns out the eos do not actually have a firm proposal in place yet for below the premier.

[AlanCamelonfan]

Just now, superbigal said:

Some have objected to the principle of the east juniors having 2 super leagues at level 6 as opposed to the 1 on the proposal which is in line with the current junior structure.
Just a reminder that the eos have actually had 3 leagues at level 6 this season.

YEs but that was for 1 season you want to go on for the rest of your life like this

[superbigal]

YEs but that was for 1 season you want to go on for the rest of your life like this

Why do you quote me as a junior ?

I'm not a junior.

I'm just stating facts.

 

Also wheres your facts that the juniors want that structure for ever ?

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 minute ago, superbigal said:

Why do you quote me as a junior ?
I'm not a junior.
I'm just stating facts.

You are ignoring the facts. The fact is its 1 season for EOSFL to resolve a problem. The Juniors are doing it forever because they are scared of their own shadow

[Jack Burton]

Let’s recap then.
When this thread started one of the main selling points was that the pyramid would eliminate the glass ceiling and would let any club in the land progress up the leagues as far as they were able with no obstacles put in their way.
Now you’re saying yeah (as long as they’re in the EOSL or WRSJFA)??
Realistically that’s what might probably happen but it’s a bit disrespectful to our Northern and Southern cousins who too often on here are a bit of an afterthought.

Tier 6 should be the West Junior and East of Scotland Premier leagues. Both leagues are much stronger than the South of Scotland league or the East junior North & South. That's not to say the other teams and leagues should sit outwith the pyramid.

[GNU_Linux]

Why do you quote me as a junior ?I'm not a junior.
I'm just stating facts.
 
Also wheres your facts that the juniors want that structure for ever ?

The east junior format as far as my understanding was adjusted in part due to increased travel costs. Said costs would indicate the north/south divide will be around for the foreseeable future

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, superbigal said:

As it turns out the eos do not actually have a firm proposal in place yet for below the premier.

They do, it's two Conferences at tier 7 next season.  It will be decided at AGM what will happen 2020-2021 and thereafter.

[Beenzon-Toste]

You are ignoring the facts. The fact is its 1 season for EOSFL to resolve a problem. The Juniors are doing it forever because they are scared of their own shadow

Oh dear, Fanny on a Camel strikes again.
If the East Juniors are so inferior and scared, why is the EOSFL so desperate to swallow them up.
It looks to me like the EOSFL are the ones scared of having the ERSJFA sitting alongside them.

[GNU_Linux]

Oh dear, Fanny on a Camel strikes again.

If the East Juniors are so inferior and scared, why is the EOSFL so desperate to swallow them up.

It looks to me like the EOSFL are the ones scared of having the ERSJFA sitting alongside them.

 

Do explain why Bathgate & Blackburn (2 miles apart) or Jeanfield & Kinnoul (from the same bloody city) should be playing in seperate feeders within the pyramid? The EOS aren't scared of anything rather they have legitimate issue with a new league getting shoehorned in it's territory despite it being the established pathway for pyramid acess in that part of the country. Why should the east juniors get special treatment when if the proposal goes through all other parts of the country will have one league covering the area & not two. The EOS want a merger for the sake of unity in the east so one area has one feeder like everywhere else.

 

[Ginaro]

On 20/04/2019 at 10:43, Junior_Arab said:

Not so sure about this. Looking at the winners / runners up of the HL for the past 10 years you’ve got Buckie, Forres, Clach, Brora, Formartine, Deveronvale etc, none of which are easily accessible from Dundee and even a decent distance from Aberdeen, again over terrible roads. Only really Cove or Inverurie are within a 4hr round trip from Dundee.

Several highland league sides have massive budgets for that level, that dwarf anything in Tayside and all but one or two junior clubs across the entire country. Lochee United could probably be reasonably competitive, the next couple of clubs could maybe hold their own in the middle/lower reaches of the table. Similarly, only 1 or 2 Aberdeen based junior clubs could compete in the top division of a combined set up. I don’t think the balance of power would centralise there as readily as it will further south. 

According to the AA route planner - Cove, Inverurie, Formartine, Huntly, and Turiff are within a 4hr round trip from Dundee.

But to begin with, Tayside clubs should be merged with the North Superleague to form a league at tier 6 - only two sides are more than 4hrs away and neither of those would feature in the top league anyway. Almost all of the teams are in the Aberdeen(shire) area within 3hr return from Dundee, the same as going to Penicuik. That would allow clubs time to get a licence if they wanted to move up to the HL.

On 20/04/2019 at 11:04, Beenzon-Toste said:

What planet are you lot on?
The SOSL is not remotely interested in the Pyramid, they don't have anyone capable of joining the LL, they don't want to merge with the West Region, they've got their own set-up and are happy with it. I doubt that they care about any of it.

Great, in which case they don't need to be in the LL play-off at tier 6 - that simplifies the west side of things!

12 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Can we seriously have a structure where that and the East juniors south premier are on the same level? Someone has honestly thought that through and thought it ok?

Indeed, the East Juniors have chosen to go for even smaller regional leagues next season for more local football - basically all of the teams who want to play at LL level have already left.