Junior football, what is the future?

[Sergeant Wilson]

Just now, Spyro said:

Sorry my bad, still can’t get my head round the fact that they are actually going to pull this stunt, I think we agree that even an expansion of the SoS league like the EoS have done this season would be more fair

I wouldn't be averse to conferences in the West to produce a league set up for the following season, but don't see the West clubs buying it. I

Alternatively, I don't think SoS clubs would be that hard to deal with. They could run a division next year and league places could indicate a West Division for them to be absorbed. Or the Divisions could go back to districts.

[Hillonearth]

Perhaps a way of amalgamating the West and SoSL once and for all is a transitional season like this one has been in the East with conferences to decide startup divisions for the following season.

There would be more travel involved than in the East were this to happen however and there might need to be an option for teams to opt out of the process with the understanding they would automatically start the following season in the lowest division.

It never was a realistic solution to expect West teams to consistently traipse down to D&G, and even less so to expect South teams to go the other way, but mixing it up for a season might finally sort things out.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Hillonearth

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

Perhaps a way of amalgamating the West and SoSL once and for all is a transitional season like this one has been in the East with conferences to decide startup divisions for the following season.

There would be more travel involved than in the East were this to happen however and there might need to be an option for teams to opt out of the process with the understanding they would automatically start the following season in the lowest division.

It never was a realistic solution to expect West teams to consistently traipse down to D&G, and even less so to expect South teams to go the other way, but mixing it up for a season might finally sort things out.

It's doesn't need to be anything like as complicated as the east, because the SoS teams are nowhere near West Premiership level. They didn't win a single game against EoS opposition in the cups this season - the closest Bonnyton came to a win was 2-3 v Preston Athletic, who might just make it into the EoS top 5.

Ask the SoS teams if they have ambitions of playing at LL level - if not then why do they need to be at tier 6?

Then ask if they want to play at a region-wide level in the west - if not then you can just put them as a notional "League Two South" at tier 9.

If some teams want to play at West Region level then slot the league in alongside League One or Two and have a play-off with 3rd for a place in the division above.

Only other thing is the West Premiership needs to accept Dalbeattie or Gretna if they get relegated from the LL.

[parsforlife]

It never was a realistic solution to expect West teams to consistently traipse down to D&G, and even less so to expect South teams to go the other way, but mixing it up for a season might finally sort things out.

If you want to play at tier 6 then you absolutely need to be willing to make relevantly short journeys. 2 hours at most ffs, covering a small proportion of the county, this isn't a tough ask

[Hillonearth]

9 hours ago, parsforlife said:

 

If you want to play at tier 6 then you absolutely need to be willing to make relevantly short journeys. 2 hours at most ffs, covering a small proportion of the county, this isn't a tough ask

Obviously, but I was referring to the previous "the South covers the West" lunacy which prevailed, in which two distinct geographical areas were posited to be somehow congruent for an easy solution for facilitation of some sort of a pyramid with the result that there wasn't even a sniff of interest in something so inherently unworkable.

In the East, things were much more workable in as much as the two areas already overlapped to large degree and the centre of gravity of the structure, both existing and "new" was within a very few miles of Edinburgh with only a handful of true outliers.

Granted, teams should be willing to make reasonable journeys to play - and the truth is that even the most dyed in the wool "mon the Juniors" types won't moan too much about a couple of long road trips to face Invernaewhere Thistle in the Junior Cup - but the reality of a Glasgow area team facing 5/6 hour trips every fortnight in the SoS meant there was absolutely no interest in this as a solution .

If you still think that attitude was unreasonable, in East terms think of the trip from Linlithgow to Tweedmouth which is fine once a season, but would soon wear on fans, players - and club treasurers! - were they asked to make it every other week. That was essentially what was being asked.

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Hillonearth

[Junior_Arab]

18 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Obviously, but I was referring to the previous "the South covers the West" lunacy which prevailed, in which two distinct geographical areas were posited to be somehow congruent for an easy solution for facilitation of some sort of a pyramid with the result that there wasn't even a sniff of interest in something so inherently unworkable.

See also “the Highland League covers Tayside”. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Obviously, but I was referring to the previous "the South covers the West" lunacy which prevailed, in which two distinct geographical areas were posited to be somehow congruent for an easy solution for facilitation of some sort of a pyramid with the result that there wasn't even a sniff of interest in something so inherently unworkable.
In the East, things were much more workable in as much as the two areas already overlapped to large degree and the centre of gravity of the structure, both existing and "new" was within a very few miles of Edinburgh with only a handful of true outliers.
Granted, teams should be willing to make reasonable journeys to play - and the truth is that even the most dyed in the wool "mon the Juniors" types won't moan too much about a couple of long road trips to face Invernaewhere Thistle in the Junior Cup - but the reality of a Glasgow area team facing 5/6 hour trips every fortnight in the SoS meant there was absolutely no interest in this as a solution .
If you still think that attitude was unreasonable, in East terms think of the trip from Linlithgow to Tweedmouth which is fine once a season, but would soon wear on fans, players - and club treasurers! - were they asked to make it every other week. That was essentially what was being asked.
 

Just out of interest, where in the SoS is a 5/6 hour drive from Glasgow? Glasgow to Dumfries is a 1hr 19min drive. I agree though that having a WOSL covering tier 6 would hopefully balance out travel. I genuinely think that only a few sosl teams would take up any promotion etc into it.

[Hillonearth]

7 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Just out of interest, where in the SoS is a 5/6 hour drive from Glasgow? Glasgow to Dumfries is a 1hr 19min drive. I agree though that having a WOSL covering tier 6 would hopefully balance out travel. I genuinely think that only a few sosl teams would take up any promotion etc into it.

In terms of round trips, a good bit of it. As you say, the D part of D&G is easy enough to get to straight down the A74 although it has to be said anyone's who's managed it in 1hr 19min must have been doing the journey in an F-15

It's more the G part - your teams strung along the coast. Past Dumfries and turning west, the area's covered by not-great A-roads which seriously bumps up travelling time. Even Dumfries-Castle Douglas which is maybe only another 20 miles can easily take 40-45 minutes each way in anything less than optimum conditions.

[cmontheloknow]

I'm down in the SW a lot and as is said, roads are not great. If the SoS was in the same region as the West, regionalisation is essential. West N/S for example. Like most clubs in the West L1/2, the SoS is almost fully amateur.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Junior_Arab said:

See also “the Highland League covers Tayside”. 

Saying the Highland League covers North of the Tay Bridge is no different to saying the Lowland League covers Gretna to Perth. Much as the Lowland League will change to be more central belt based through promotion and relegation. The Highland League would become more Aberdeenshire/Tayside dominated.

 

7 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

I'm down in the SW a lot and as is said, roads are not great. If the SoS was in the same region as the West, regionalisation is essential. West N/S for example. Like most clubs in the West L1/2, the SoS is almost fully amateur.

In the ideal pyramid building time post formation of the Lowland League having the SoS slot in under or merging with the Ayrshire district to ultimately create South Divisions One and Two would of been nice.

[AlanCamelonfan]

47 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

In terms of round trips, a good bit of it. As you say, the D part of D&G is easy enough to get to straight down the A74 although it has to be said anyone's who's managed it in 1hr 19min must have been doing the journey in an F-15

It's more the G part - your teams strung along the coast. Past Dumfries and turning west, the area's covered by not-great A-roads which seriously bumps up travelling time. Even Dumfries-Castle Douglas which is maybe only another 20 miles can easily take 40-45 minutes each way in anything less than optimum conditions.

I managed to get to lockerbie from falkirk 1 hr 25 mins and you're that bit closer

[Burnie_man]

Has anyone asked the SoSFL if they would like to be consumed by the West Juniors?

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Has anyone asked the SoSFL if they would like to be consumed by the West Juniors?

I'm going to guess it has never once been brought up in any PWG meeting. Going back to the BSC proposal of a WoSFL in line with the SoSFL and EoSFL and now the SFA proposal of the 4 leagues at Tier 6, I don't think anyone has ever seriously discussed mergers of any kind.

[Wee Smiler]

16 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm going to guess it has never once been brought up in any PWG meeting. Going back to the BSC proposal of a WoSFL in line with the SoSFL and EoSFL and now the SFA proposal of the 4 leagues at Tier 6, I don't think anyone has ever seriously discussed mergers of any kind.

juniors stated they had no interest in taking in borders and south clubs. 

[Junior_Arab]

57 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Much as the Lowland League will change to be more central belt based through promotion and relegation. The Highland League would become more Aberdeenshire/Tayside dominated.

Not so sure about this. Looking at the winners / runners up of the HL for the past 10 years you’ve got Buckie, Forres, Clach, Brora, Formartine, Deveronvale etc, none of which are easily accessible from Dundee and even a decent distance from Aberdeen, again over terrible roads. Only really Cove or Inverurie are within a 4hr round trip from Dundee. 

 

Several highland league sides have massive budgets for that level, that dwarf anything in Tayside and all but one or two junior clubs across the entire country. Lochee United could probably be reasonably competitive, the next couple of clubs could maybe hold their own in the middle/lower reaches of the table. Similarly, only 1 or 2 Aberdeen based junior clubs could compete in the top division of a combined set up. I don’t think the balance of power would centralise there as readily as it will further south. 

[Beenzon-Toste]

What planet are you lot on?
The SOSL is not remotely interested in the Pyramid, they don't have anyone capable of joining the LL, they don't want to merge with the West Region, they've got their own set-up and are happy with it. I doubt that they care about any of it.

[Arthurlie1981]

Maybe it’s just me but perhaps having this 1 year trial is in effect to give more time to all parties to come to a solution that’s more suitable long term.

 

I did have to laugh at one poster on the pyramid thread on the EOS forum saying that he thinks legal action is coming from a non SPFL club against the sfa and the sfa couldn’t afford to fight it. He does understand how much a QC costs, it would bankrupt most clubs at this level

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, Junior_Arab said:

Not so sure about this. Looking at the winners / runners up of the HL for the past 10 years you’ve got Buckie, Forres, Clach, Brora, Formartine, Deveronvale etc, none of which are easily accessible from Dundee and even a decent distance from Aberdeen, again over terrible roads. Only really Cove or Inverurie are within a 4hr round trip from Dundee. 

 

Several highland league sides have massive budgets for that level, that dwarf anything in Tayside and all but one or two junior clubs across the entire country. Lochee United could probably be reasonably competitive, the next couple of clubs could maybe hold their own in the middle/lower reaches of the table. Similarly, only 1 or 2 Aberdeen based junior clubs could compete in the top division of a combined set up. I don’t think the balance of power would centralise there as readily as it will further south. 

Presumably any Year One set up in the North would look like this:

There's only one club in that set up that could currently get promoted to the Highland League which is Banks O'Dee. So it's likely that the Tayside clubs wouldn't have to worry about travelling North for until they have clubs that are getting licensed. So Banks O'Dee would probably replace Fort William following the first season taking away one awkward trip a year for future Tayside clubs.

As for the Highland League the running tally for the last 10 years since they returned to 18 teams is as follows:

The current Top 6 in the North Super League are 4 Aberdeen based clubs, Culter who are south of Aberdeen and Montrose Roselea a former Tayside club. The 10 year standings for the North Super League also shows the most consistent teams in the North Region are from the Aberden area.

It'd take time to change the current Highland League but it is only going to become more convenient for Tayside area clubs as there isn't the depth in the North of Scotland. If all you do is look at the snapshot of what the Highland League is just now, then you have to think the same way about current Lowland League. Dundee to Dalbeattie, Dundee to Gretna, Dundee to Innerleithen, Dundee to Galashiels.

[cmontheloknow]

49 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

What planet are you lot on?
The SOSL is not remotely interested in the Pyramid, they don't have anyone capable of joining the LL, they don't want to merge with the West Region, they've got their own set-up and are happy with it. I doubt that they care about any of it.

Bet you ten shiny pound coins that by season 2028-29 the SoS and the WoS are in the same set-up.

[Robert James]

On 18/04/2019 at 17:29, Beenzon-Toste said:

Probably Petrie and Maxwell are not so stupid as to be taken in with all this pish about parallel leagues. It was never an issue when this all started. Now that the EOSL have gained a lot of clubs they seem to be trying to use their false sense of superiority and want to dictate to everyone else.
When it started they just wanted a handful of clubs to prop up their failing league. Instead of the big hitters of the East Region Juniors the got the minnows. They kept moving the closing date for applications until they eventually got their target clubs. The SJFA indicated that they wished to join and everyone said it was the right way forward. No mention then of any geographical overlap.
Now though?
Total smokescreen. They actually want the ERSJFA to fold and join the EOSL. So all those clubs will come under their rule.

Sorry I disagree.

IMO the EoSL does NOT want the ERJFA to fold.   This is because the EoSL does not want clubs north of the Tay Bridge to be added to their league, and therefore have no objection to the ERJFA continuing for the Dundee/Angus clubs. These are located in the Highland region as per the SFA's/SPFL's boundary between the HFL & SLFL.

The Lowland League has also made it clear that  in inviting applications to fill the Selkirk vacancy, it will only consider applicants from clubs located within the Lowland boundary are.