Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Kilbowie Benches said:

It clearly is,but then that doesn’t suit your agenda,and puts you in a bit of a sticky position.

That it

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Well when I was involved, the ERJFA Secretary was getting north of £6k a year, probably more now, and I understand the WRJFA Secretary was being paid a lot more. There was other "honoraria" involved as well.  Those "volunteers" are well rewarded for what they do, and explains why they want to keep the fines.

Any idea how much an individual fine might range from? Because for the £6k when the EoS had 60+ clubs could simply be a flat rate of £100 quid each. Even now with 36 you're only talking about £166.66.

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

I am angry. Clubs in the west are (imo) being stopped from progressing by clubs in the EOSFL who have not offered an alternative and want the status quo. And I know that clubs in the east have no objection but from my prospective by being obstructive they know that the most likely outcome is no change.

 

No club wants status quo. They want west in but they don't want east unless south east teams join eosfl it's not hard

[Burnie_man]

22 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Any idea how much an individual fine might range from? Because for the £6k when the EoS had 60+ clubs could simply be a flat rate of £100 quid each. Even now with 36 you're only talking about £166.66.

I dont have any ERJFA accounts to hand, and only have some old SJFA, but in 2008 and 2009, SJFA income from fines was £11,248 and £12,745, re-instatement income was £12,072 and £14,663.  From memory, player fines ranged from £10-£50 on average.

EDIT: So SJFA income from fines and re-instatements was around £23-£26k, the SJFA Secretary's salary at that time was £25k......

Edited April 1, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Talbot 1978]

Omfg is Burnieman still pontificating on this thread? Jezz man give it a rest. [emoji23]

[San Starko Rover]

The EOS aren’t being difficult they’re doing exactly what they should be doing by refusing to allow an overlapping league in at tier 6 which they could lose teams to. The only thing that’s screwing the West Juniors is that they’re trying to negotiate joining as a package with the East Juniors, if the West Juniors applied on their own the EOS would have no problem they even offered in the past to help set up a WOS league. Don’t get why the West Juniors are so attached to the East when they’ve both happily forgotten about the North. Let the West Juniors join this coming season and the East and North can continue to negotiate does it really matter they both join at the same time.

[Mr Prez]

On 31/03/2019 at 21:03, Kilbowie Benches said:

We can’t wait to beat shite like  Eyemouth  12-0.The people in Clydebank are salivating at the prospect 

Round about this time last year you would have took that if you could have had your way I seem to remember no idea why you have changed

[Vollyman]

Well when I was involved, the ERJFA Secretary was getting north of £6k a year, probably more now, and I understand the WRJFA Secretary was being paid a lot more. There was other "honoraria" involved as well.  Those "volunteers" are well rewarded for what they do, and explains why they want to keep the fines.

The ERJFA did not set the honoraria the member clubs decided the amounts to be paid to officials each year at the AGM

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Vollyman said:

The ERJFA did not set the honoraria the member clubs decided the amounts to be paid to officials each year at the AGM

Yeah I know that, hence why I never said it........

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, San Starko Rover said:

The EOS aren’t being difficult they’re doing exactly what they should be doing by refusing to allow an overlapping league in at tier 6 which they could lose teams to. The only thing that’s screwing the West Juniors is that they’re trying to negotiate joining as a package with the East Juniors, if the West Juniors applied on their own the EOS would have no problem they even offered in the past to help set up a WOS league. Don’t get why the West Juniors are so attached to the East when they’ve both happily forgotten about the North. Let the West Juniors join this coming season and the East and North can continue to negotiate does it really matter they both join at the same time.

Your suggestion is the most obvious, and therefore the best suggestion.............which is why it won't be adopted. The reason is that the SJFA hierarchy has its "Red Lines", and won't compromise on "the West joining, also means the East joining" .  Strangely, the "West also means North" Red Line, has been forgotten or dropped.

But here is the solution...... let's have indicative votes (sorry everyone), with each West Junior club being balloted individually on a small range of options, without direct input from the SJFA  itself. These could mirror our beloved BREXIT, by handing power to the clubs, having to vote YES or NO on each option :

A.    Would you join the pyramid ONLY if the  East Region joins at the same time, at the same Tier                                                                                                                            YES         NO

B.    Would you join the pyramid as the West en bloc, without the East  Region joining at the same time and Tier                                                                                             YES         NO

C.    Would you join the pyramid in a new West feeder league, if the SJFA doesn't succeed in delivering West + East only                                                                           YES         NO

D.   In the light of what has happened/not happened during the last year, do you still wish to join the pyramid, or instead remain as a separate SJFA club        YES      NO

Hence power to the clubs, and not to the governing body !  It just might end the stalemate. Also, broadly similar Indicative votes could be put to the ERJFA and NRJFA clubs independently, either now or in the future.

Well there we have it, and YES it is still April Fools Day,

 

   

[Guest]

Can we all be clear here. The eosfl are not standing in the way of the west region juniors, they are just wholeheartedly against the east having equal footing in an area they have spent the best part of 20 years progressing. The eosfl did not in fact set up a LL for their own clubs...... If they did why did they allow ek, bsc, Cumbernauld, Dalbeattie and Selkirk etc to join by application (as this was the process for all LL clubs at its inception) who would traditionally have been under other associations, that argument has no basis nor does it even match what the eosfl have offered to help set up in the West of the country. 

On a side note, why should the current feeder in the east make any concessions for an association who have done nothing but attempt to undermine their set up for years. The sjfa steer back in the day was 'our product is better than theirs and its a step down to join the LL'...... The sjfa have also produced a poor questionnaire that formed the mandate they currently have, they only gave clubs 2 options to choose from.... I still believe that this was a massive fail on their part..... They offered little alternatives to the clubs (particularly in the West) ..... Maybe (wrongly) thinking they would get everyone in easily at tier 5 or 6.... or not giving the eosfl as much credence as they deserved. The sjfa have wrongly assumed that every other association would do away with their current processes and policies just to get the juniors on board. 

I realise this is all about opinions but it is easy to say the eosfl and LL are being difficult....forgetting the part junior clubs played 5 years ago in conjunction with the sjfa in downplaying both the LL and the pyramid structure itself (it suited self preservation then and is in danger of doing so now - to the detriment of junior clubs again). What also shouldn't be forgotten is the indifference towards the pyramid and LL from most junior clubs and fans in more recent times, until it now suits the same clubs/people to suggest to those we have downplayed (LL, eosfl and sosfl) they should change what they do to let us come on board and share what they have worked hard to progress and maintain..... A product which is now more attractive to players from senior leagues (mostly but not all), is becoming more attractive to new fans and is far more marketable than the alternative (particularly in the east). 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Guest

[Arthurlie1981]

Can we all be clear here. The eosfl are not standing in the way of the west region juniors, they are just wholeheartedly against the east having equal footing in an area they have spent the best part of 20 years progressing. The eosfl did not in fact set up a LL for their own clubs...... If they did why did they allow ek, bsc, Cumbernauld, Dalbeattie and Selkirk etc to join by application (as this was the process for all LL clubs at its inception) who would traditionally have been under other associations, that argument has no basis nor does it even match what the eosfl have offered to help set up in the West of the country. 
On a side note, why should the current feeder in the east make any concessions for an association who have done nothing but attempt to undermine their set up for years. The sjfa steer back in the day was 'our product is better than theirs and its a step down to join the LL'...... The sjfa have also produced a poor questionnaire that formed the mandate they currently have, they only gave clubs 2 options to choose from.... I still believe that this was a massive fail on their part..... They offered little alternatives to the clubs (particularly in the West) ..... Maybe (wrongly) thinking they would get everyone in easily at tier 5 or 6.... or not giving the eosfl as much credence as they deserved. The sjfa have wrongly assumed that every other association would do away with their current processes and policies just to get the juniors on board. 
I realise this is all about opinions but it is easy to say the eosfl and LL are being difficult....forgetting the part junior clubs played 5 years ago in conjunction with the sjfa in downplaying both the LL and the pyramid structure itself (it suited self preservation then and is in danger of doing so now - to the detriment of junior clubs again). What also shouldn't be forgotten is the indifference towards the pyramid and LL from most junior clubs and fans in more recent times, until it now suits the same clubs/people to suggest to those we have downplayed (LL, eosfl and sosfl) they should change what they do to let us come on board and share what they have worked hard to progress and maintain..... A product which is now more attractive to players from senior leagues (mostly but not all), is becoming more attractive to new fans and is far more marketable than the alternative (particularly in the east). 

Agree with some of your points but not all of them. Biggest point agree with is it is all about opinions and what side of the divide you are coming from.

I want this to work and there is fault in all sides but I just get frustrated when an organisation digs in with the position and offering no constructive alternatives as the EOSFL have.

There are always solutions to this problem but compromise must come from all sides.

[glensmad]

7 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Agree with some of your points but not all of them. Biggest point agree with is it is all about opinions and what side of the divide you are coming from.

I want this to work and there is fault in all sides but I just get frustrated when an organisation digs in with the position and offering no constructive alternatives as the EOSFL have.

There are always solutions to this problem but compromise must come from all sides.

 

It's a bit like Brexit, it appears that the people who are holding the ace cards are not for compromising.

[Ginaro]

4 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

Agree with some of your points but not all of them. Biggest point agree with is it is all about opinions and what side of the divide you are coming from.

I want this to work and there is fault in all sides but I just get frustrated when an organisation digs in with the position and offering no constructive alternatives as the EOSFL have.

There are always solutions to this problem but compromise must come from all sides.

Yes compromise must come from all sides, so could you tell us what constructive alternative the SJFA is putting forward having dug in with their binary plan of all juniors in the pyramid?

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, glensmad said:

It's a bit like Brexit, it appears that the people who are holding the ace cards are not for compromising.

What compromises would you suggest - from both sides?

[Jack Burton]

Agree with some of your points but not all of them. Biggest point agree with is it is all about opinions and what side of the divide you are coming from.

I want this to work and there is fault in all sides but I just get frustrated when an organisation digs in with the position and offering no constructive alternatives as the EOSFL have.

There are always solutions to this problem but compromise must come from all sides.

Having no association with any of the leagues it looks to me that it is the juniors that haven't given any ground.

The EOSFL accepted a host of junior clubs last season which has essentially relegated most of the previous members down a tier. They and the SOSL were willing to accept the West juniors in as is which would significantly reduce their chance of getting promoted to the Lowland league.

The East juniors contains a number of clubs that arent eligible to play in a Lowland league feeder league anyway.

[AlanCamelonfan]

41 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Agree with some of your points but not all of them. Biggest point agree with is it is all about opinions and what side of the divide you are coming from.

I want this to work and there is fault in all sides but I just get frustrated when an organisation digs in with the position and offering no constructive alternatives as the EOSFL have.

There are always solutions to this problem but compromise must come from all sides.

 

They did southe of Tay teams join them.  Get west in as is. Tayside isn't in their power so pleasee tell me what the problem is

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Agree with some of your points but not all of them. Biggest point agree with is it is all about opinions and what side of the divide you are coming from.

I want this to work and there is fault in all sides but I just get frustrated when an organisation digs in with the position and offering no constructive alternatives as the EOSFL have.

There are always solutions to this problem but compromise must come from all sides.

 

What compromise should the eosfl put forward? This is the point I can't for the life of my get my head around. They have been the Senior feeder league for the LL since its inception, if the compromise you are looking for them to make is to give up their position as the only feeder for the east, I'd suggest that is and was never going to happen. They bought into the pyramid at the start, helped form it and suffered as a result but stuck with their set up and league. They now have a really good product, sellable, manageable and marketable.... They are probably as strong as they have ever been and now they have to accept another association who weren't interested 5 years ago in and give them a fair share? I've said before and will do again, if you pass on a deal and come back later looking for the same deal only to be told it isn't there any more you can't complain and ask for compromise.... If you turn down the chance to join a set up because you dont want to, you can't come back and think it's alright to dictate how, when and what level in the set up you will enter. It isn't a reasonable request to make. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Guest

[Talbot 1978]

NEWSFLASH Just in

 

Burnieman has said that the SFA needs an extension to Junexit talks and has offered to sit down with the leader of the opposition party in order to break what he described as the Junexit "logjam".

Speaking from Blackburn, Lothian the clown said he hoped to agree a deal with SJFA leader Mr Johnston which could be put to every club for approval before the Scottish Junior Cup Final but, if that cannot be achieved, then a number of alternative options could be put to the vote.

 

Insisting that any resolution should take the Juniors out of the SJFA by May 22, Burnieman added: "This is a decisive moment in the story of these leagues and it will require national unity to deliver the national interest."

 

He said: "I have always been clear that we could make a success of no-deal in the long term but leaving the SJFA with a deal is the best solution.

"So we will need a further extension of Juniors Article 50 - one that is as short as possible and which ends when we pass a deal.

"And we need to be clear what such an extension is for: to ensure we leave in a timely and orderly way.

"This debate, these Junior league division, cannot drag on much longer."

 

Burnieman's statement follows a marathon session of crisis talks in his house with Alan the Camelon fan on Tuesday as he tries to break the Junexit deadlock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gaz5]

 

Agree with some of your points but not all of them. Biggest point agree with is it is all about opinions and what side of the divide you are coming from.

 

I want this to work and there is fault in all sides but I just get frustrated when an organisation digs in with the position and offering no constructive alternatives as the EOSFL have.

 

There are always solutions to this problem but compromise must come from all sides.

As I said on the other thread, the EoS have both compromised and proposed alternative solutions. The SJFA are the ones digging their heels in and stopping their members from being able to progress into the pyramid. 

 

 

EoS have in the last year:

 

- Accepted 26 Junior teams into their structure, relegating most of their existing membership in the process

- Said they support the West Region moving over at Teir 6 and would be happy to help set it up

- Said they support the North Region moving over at Teir 6

- Said they support the makeup of a Tayside league at Teir 6 for teams who cannot play LL football

- Said they will accept remaining South of Tay Junior teams into their structure, further impacting their membership.

- Set up and chaired a meeting of the two associations to discuss, which we are told the SJFA had little interest in.

 

They have said they will not accept a competing league in the same geographical area in the East, with teams in separate structures single digit miles apart, as there is no need for it and makes no sense. And they have questioned the separate discipline rules (though I suspect you solve the duplicate league's in East issue and the discipline one isn't a showstopper).

 

They have, as best I can tell, compromised and accepted more than 80% of what has been asked if them. They are asking, quite reasonably as we all know it's a stupid idea, that the SJFA compromise on less than 20% of the proposal, namely not to have a competing geographical league at the same level with teams in it ineligible for promotion to the level above.

 

The SJFA, conversely, have seen the EoS (and LL/SoS) agree to 80% or more of what they want, but they want it all. They won't do the sensible thing and say "you know what, the issue in the East is fair, let's put that on hold till we can talk it through further and get a solution for the season after next, without holding up the West, Tayside (ERJFA structure already changed to support it) and North if they want"

 

As far as I can see, the league's in the pyramid are open to change, have proven it consistently and have accepted a great deal of what is proposed without issue.

 

Progress is entirely in the gift of the SJFA, all they need to do is accept the east is a legitimate issue, put it on hold for further discussion, and the West and Tayside could be on board for next season.

 

Why anyone thinks the EoS is "blocking" this, or that an objection on the grounds that having 2 feeders in the same region (one of which with near half the teams who can't be promoted) isn't legitimate, I can't fathom.

 

The SJFA could resolve this tomorrow, by showing the same level of acceptance and compromise as the league's being blamed for holding this up. They only have to concede one issue to further discussion.