Junior football, what is the future?

[Black & Red Socks]

SFA wont be allowing votes on this.  Maxwell has made it pretty clear from the start. 

It really doesn’t matter what Maxwell has made clear from the start, rules and regulations of any competition have to be abided by and cannot be ridden rough shod over by anyone, regardless of who they are. Any changes to the rules governing the promotion/relegation of clubs to/from the Lowland League have to be agreed to by all affected leagues. It’s quite clear that if any one of the leagues in question reject the SFA proposal then it will not happen - and I understand that both the EoSFL and the SLFL are recommending to their clubs that the SFA proposal is rejected.

[gaz5]

TBH I find it quite apt that the SFA, from the very top, with all of the possible solutions available to them to put in place positive and lasting change in non league football, have picked the worst "solution" they possibly could have to push to proposal.

 

0.25 promotion places to each of the longstanding pyramid feeders, 0.5 promotion spots for the incoming juniors, which includes a bunch of teams that can't even be promoted based on the pyramid rules, with two league's covering the same geographical area and 50% of the feeders running a separate disciplinary system based on making money to pay the wages of the only person that seems to benefit from this.

 

It is an abomination of an idea which needs to get in the fucking sea.

 

The answer here has been so simple from the off even a half competent leadership at the SFA could have got it over the line.

 

West comes in at Teir 6, North of Tay in a new league (as the ERSJFA have already proposed) until the boundary question is answered, get ERSJFA and EoS round a table to agree a controlled merger that doesn't negatively impact any clubs from either association even if that needs another transition season of all in conferences at Teir 6 to work out Teir 6, 7 and 8 places the season after. Clear plan of who goes where needed on performance so everyone knows what they are playing for. Job done.

 

In any normal walk of life, the role of the SFA here should have been that of arbitration, to mediate all sides who, naturally, would be looking out for their own interests, in order to get the right solution. Christ even a workable solution!

 

It appears they have picked a side, and the side they've picked is the one who declined to enter discussions at the outset 5 years ago and up until a few clubs broke ranks in the East were openly disparaging about the pyramid they now want to force their way into on their own terms.

 

This could end up an absolute clusterfuck that in the end only really benefits one man. And the frustrating thing, as with most things in Scottish football, it's been made so much harder than it had to be.

 

It's clear both Junior and Senior want some solution, which is a start. Doesn't seem to be much in the way of negotiation or concession on either side though. Concession from each for a fair solution should have been Maxwell's role. Not pushing the agenda of one side, regardless of which side that was.

[Talbot 1978]

TBH I find it quite apt that the SFA, from the very top, with all of the possible solutions available to them to put in place positive and lasting change in non league football, have picked the worst "solution" they possibly could have to push to proposal.
 
0.25 promotion places to each of the longstanding pyramid feeders, 0.5 promotion spots for the incoming juniors, which includes a bunch of teams that can't even be promoted based on the pyramid rules, with two league's covering the same geographical area and 50% of the feeders running a separate disciplinary system based on making money to pay the wages of the only person that seems to benefit from this.
 
It is an abomination of an idea which needs to get in the fucking sea.
 
The answer here has been so simple from the off even a half competent leadership at the SFA could have got it over the line.
 
West comes in at Teir 6, North of Tay in a new league (as the ERSJFA have already proposed) until the boundary question is answered, get ERSJFA and EoS round a table to agree a controlled merger that doesn't negatively impact any clubs from either association even if that needs another transition season of all in conferences at Teir 6 to work out Teir 6, 7 and 8 places the season after. Clear plan of who goes where needed on performance so everyone knows what they are playing for. Job done.
 
In any normal walk of life, the role of the SFA here should have been that of arbitration, to mediate all sides who, naturally, would be looking out for their own interests, in order to get the right solution. Christ even a workable solution!
 
It appears they have picked a side, and the side they've picked is the one who declined to enter discussions at the outset 5 years ago and up until a few clubs broke ranks in the East were openly disparaging about the pyramid they now want to force their way into on their own terms.
 
This could end up an absolute clusterfuck that in the end only really benefits one man. And the frustrating thing, as with most things in Scottish football, it's been made so much harder than it had to be.
 
It's clear both Junior and Senior want some solution, which is a start. Doesn't seem to be much in the way of negotiation or concession on either side though. Concession from each for a fair solution should have been Maxwell's role. Not pushing the agenda of one side, regardless of which side that was.

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[cmontheloknow]

The SFA head seemingly being as clueless about the lower leagues as the *average* OF fan does not help matters.

[gaz5]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I think in your ignorance you have unsurprisingly missed the point.

This isn't a good deal for anyone, the juniors included.

Talbot, for example, have 0.25 promotion spots available to their league and will have to fight for that spot against teams from above the Tay boundary who can't be promoted to LL under current rules (which this proposal doesn't address changing).

The West gets 0.25 promotion spots, the East 0.5 (on account of having two league's in the same geography).

Teams in the East now have two options. Let's say Whitehill get Relegated by finishing bottom. They look at the EoS premier and the ERSJFA south league. So they get to choose? Because of they want a chance at coming back up quickly they ain't choosing EoS. How's that fair to clubs in the West?

Or what if one of the top Ams teams in the East decide to try their arm. Where do they go? Do they get to choose and pick the league they think will be easier to navigate?

Take your association tinted specs off. This proposal, unless I'm missing something, is good for no one in the long run, East and West juniors included, for many, many reasons.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

Or what if one of the top Ams teams in the East decide to try their arm. Where do they go? Do they get to choose and pick the league they think will be easier to navigate?
 

That's already happening.

Syngenta and Glenrothes Strollers looking to the EoS.

Linlithgow Thistle looking to the East Region as Bo'ness United Juniors, and Breadalbane are also meant to be trying to join as well.

Then there was the rumour of Musselburgh Windsor trying to get into the EoS last year. Who knows if they'll try both EOS and East Region this year and see where they get accepted.

[Talbot 1978]

I think in your ignorance you have unsurprisingly missed the point.

This isn't a good deal for anyone, the juniors included.

Talbot, for example, have 0.25 promotion spots available to their league and will have to fight for that spot against teams from above the Tay boundary who can't be promoted to LL under current rules (which this proposal doesn't address changing).

The West gets 0.25 promotion spots, the East 0.5 (on account of having two league's in the same geography).

Teams in the East now have two options. Let's say Whitehill get Relegated by finishing bottom. They look at the EoS premier and the ERSJFA south league. So they get to choose? Because of they want a chance at coming back up quickly they ain't choosing EoS. How's that fair to clubs in the West?

Or what if one of the top Ams teams in the East decide to try their arm. Where do they go? Do they get to choose and pick the league they think will be easier to navigate?

Take your association tinted specs off. This proposal, unless I'm missing something, is good for no one in the long run, East and West juniors included, for many, many reasons.

I'm not actually worrying about what league we will be in because any eventuality we will be fine.

On the other hand you are all in meltdown because you haven't got your way.

Ps. I'm sure someone mentioned last week that social media had no affect on any decisions made. Hmmmm starting to wonder now[emoji848][emoji23]

[santheman]

5 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Sandy.

out of interest, what would you expect to be on Tom's job description as full time SJFA Secretary? The regions run themselves, do they not (in terms of their own competitions, fixtures and discipline within that)? Registrations are done online through the SFA Extranet.

So that leaves administering the Scottish Junior Cup and reinstatements.

What else, specific to the SJFA, needs done? Marketing? Media? Corresponding? I know he has roles on various committees but they are not always SJFA specific, and I'd imagine do not meet that regularly?

I don't even know  or care if there is a job description for him Jamie but if there was then I would imagine that it would be along the lines of.

Carry out all administration duties   Ensure compliance of all clubs in regards to rules and regulations. Provide advice to clubs as and when required. Attend all Management meetings to ensure they are held according to the SJFA Constitution.  Represent the SJFA in all meetings with the SFA and any sub groups. Ensure any new applicants to the SJFA comply with entry criteria.  There's probably loads more he does. 

If the CLUBS think he isn't needed anymore or could do his job on a part time basis then its their prerogative to do something about it. Maybe they could put a time and motion guy into his office for a couple of weeks to see if he works his alloted 40 hours and we're getting value for money.

However my point was that this thread has seen repeated attacks on the SJFA and TJ personally from people who don't even do the most basic of research (or have a personal agenda) then launching into lengthy tirades and end up making a rip roaring cnut of themselves.  

And that's coming from someone who would like to see the Juniors in a (proper)pyramid

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Black & Red Socks said:

It really doesn’t matter what Maxwell has made clear from the start, rules and regulations of any competition have to be abided by and cannot be ridden rough shod over by anyone, regardless of who they are. Any changes to the rules governing the promotion/relegation of clubs to/from the Lowland League have to be agreed to by all affected leagues. It’s quite clear that if any one of the leagues in question reject the SFA proposal then it will not happen - and I understand that both the EoSFL and the SLFL are recommending to their clubs that the SFA proposal is rejected.

I can't see any provisions within the SFA handbook/manual which gives powers to its Chief Executive to personally override the rules and regulations governing the Lowland or EoS leagues. Therefore I am not surprised that Ian Maxwell (apparently ?) didn't contribute much at this particular meeting, as it could be risky for him to do so.

Approximately 300 posts ago, I warned that this matter could go to litigation. I hope that I am wrong, in the interests of Scottish non-league football, but the current situation appears to be shambolic.

However, going against my general principles (where I usually assume that the particular 'organisation' knows best), my advice to the SFA is that they should appoint an independent 'consultant',  to carry out a review of the current situation, including separate consultation with the Leagues/Associations concerned, and also by examining how other countries organise/operate a football pyramid. Once  this 'review' is completed, the 'consultant' can make recommendations direct to the SFA, without inappropriate 'interference' from those with a "vested interest".   

In the meantime, the senior and junior clubs can continue to make their own decisions, on the basis of what is best for them for the future. Sad, but IMO it should lead to a better long term solution for the pyramid, etc ?

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I can't see any provisions within the SFA handbook/manual which gives powers to its Chief Executive to personally override the rules and regulations governing the Lowland or EoS leagues.

In the Janaury PWG meetings minutes it was mentioned that the Lowland League hadn't come up with a proposal for the Lowland League play-off. The LL saying nothing had been proposed by the PWG for them to work on.

So Maxwell says he would come with a proposal on behalf of the PWG so that it could be worked on by the Lowland League representative. I think this proposal is being misconstrued as a dictation from the SFA.

[Kilbowie Benches]

The Chief Executive cant override rules and regulations but the SFA Board can.

It would appear that whoever was representing the EoSL in October agreed to the Juniors coming in at tier6 and ever since then the EoSL are trying to disagree!

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Kilbowie Benches

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

The Chief Executive cant override rules and regulations but the SFA Board can.

It would appear that whoever was representing the EoSL in October agreed to the Juniors coming in at tier6 and ever since then the EoSL are trying to disagree!

 

The October email came off the back of a Professional Game Board meeting where only Tiers 1-5 are represented. It also doesn't have SJFA representation.

If the EoS had been there then the email would never have been sent as the same issues would have arisen and there wouldn't have been this misunderstanding of what they had given their okay (tier 6 West & Tayside).

[falkirktv]

19 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

The Chief Executive cant override rules and regulations but the SFA Board can.

It would appear that whoever was representing the EoSL in October agreed to the Juniors coming in at tier6 and ever since then the EoSL are trying to disagree!

 

if they could do that, there would be more than one promotion/relegation slot from spfl2.

[Talbot 1978]

Where is Burnieman?
This is comedy gold[emoji1][emoji41]

[LongTimeLurker]

 This should be a moment of triumph for the people like Burnieman who have been arguing for junior pyramid entry for the last 20 years or so. Not entirely clear why having two parallel feeders is viewed as being an insurmountable obstacle. Assuming the SFA board can and will override any objections that will no doubt sort itself out over the next few years. In the same sort of way that the Isthmian and Southern Leagues did in England.

[Burnie_man]

Where is Burnieman? This is comedy gold[emoji1][emoji41] 

 

Don't worry yourself Isa, the only comedy around here is you still craving attention. 

Word reached Kazakhstan that, as expected, the LL and EoS have recommended to members that that plan tabled by the SFA at last PWG is rejected. 

Plan is dead. That will please you as no Talbot in senior football next season as things stand.

 

Now, almost time for breakfast Chianti. Ciao.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Don't worry yourself Isa, the only comedy around here is you still craving attention. 

Word reached Kazakhstan that, as expected, the LL and EoS have recommended to members that that plan tabled by the SFA at last PWG is rejected. 

Plan is dead. That will please you as no Talbot in senior football next season as things stand.

 

Now, almost time for breakfast Chianti. Ciao.

 

 

 

 

 

Fūcksake Burnie, I've been phoning round the hospitals...Gartloch, Hartwood...Carstairs.

[Talbot 1978]

Don't worry yourself Isa, the only comedy around here is you still craving attention. Word reached Kazakhstan that, as expected, the LL and EoS have recommended to members that that plan tabled by the SFA at last PWG is rejected. Plan is dead. That will please you as no Talbot in senior football next season as things stand. 

Now, almost time for breakfast Chianti. Ciao.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yer absolutely raging [emoji23] All those hours on here for basic return.

I'll raise a toast to arrogant so and so's like you who roasted anyone who disagreed with your point of view.

I advocate change but it's also good to see the smirk wiped off you and your wee chums as your crusade fell flat.

 

Social media does work in my opinion and you probably contributed the outcome by the constant posts on change.

 

 

 

 

 

[Burnie_man]

Yer absolutely raging [emoji23] All those hours on here for basic return.
I'll raise a toast to arrogant so and so's like you who roasted anyone who disagreed with your point of view.
I advocate change but it's also good to see the smirk wiped of you and your wee chums as your crusade fell flat.
 
Social media does work in my opinion and you probably contributed the outcome by the constant posts on change.
 
 
 

Dont have a meltdown Isa, I'm delighted this half-cocked plan is being rejected, just as predicted.

Hopefully a way is found to get the west in, but as I have always said, the east requires a different solution.

[Talbot 1978]

Dont have a meltdown Isa, I'm delighted this half-cocked plan is being rejected, just as predicted.

Hopefully a way is found to get the west in, but as I have always said, the east requires a different solution.

[emoji23][emoji23]