Junior football, what is the future?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

If anyone heard a large noise when Alex McLeish was getting interviewed , don't worry it was just burnieman's head exploding.

Tbf its the one thing that we all should be agreeing on on this thread.

[Cameron Wilson]

5 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Tbf its the one thing that we all should be agreeing on on this thread.

Absolutely. I can't pretend the junior / senior divide is to blame for yesterday's horrorshow, but it is connected to some extent and we need everyone pulling in the same direction to avoid repeats.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 hours ago, Robert James said:

"You cannot be serious !"

This is football.    "Minutes, only available to the clubs concerned"  .  I suggest that you don't repeat your statement to Bonnyrigg and the other clubs, who are seeking SLL promotion, and/or an SFA Licence, as they haven't been told anything, and we are almost in April.  Several secret meetings later,  no Minutes and no SFA official announcements/updates, to the clubs concerned.

I'm not someone who usually complains, but this is appalling (mis)management IMO.

 

The PWG minutes would be passed on to league representatives who either forward them on or would pass them on if requested. Plus with the EoS we know they give their own breakdown in their meetings.

For applying clubs to the LL and SFA licensing I'd say it's their own personal responsibility to chase things up.

[superbigal]

Okay I have a little meat to put on the bone. I will post identically on the Junior thread and on the EOS thread.  Again I express what I either have in fact or what I am reliably informed. Do not shoot the messenger as I believe I am "a reporting neutral with a few  critical views" and just want the best for everyone going forward.  

To start with one of the few subjective points I have previously made is describing (Wrongly in some opinions) John Greenhorn as what looks like a "Dinasaur" in terms of his apparent contributions to the Lower Sub-Group of the Pyramid working Group. Even his defenders were puzzled by some of the points I made.  This view is again fairly critical in light of what I have heard.  Anyway I ramble so to cut to the chase.

Apparently regarding the recent PWG meeting there have been no minutes circulated as yet.  What I have been told is the meeting was short and sweet around only 40-50 mins. I have heard Mr Maxwell said little to nothing throughout the meeting. I have heard (Not 100% sure who in person but assume Maxwell)  the SFA was not happy with the apparent EOS attitude and stalling. The EOS were still aggrieved about the Juniors potentially continuing their own fixtures and discipline while in the pyramid.  Once again they were told the SFA department could not cope with an extra 140 clubs that is why the SFA are content to allow the Juniors to continue administrating these things.  I have no other details but will post the full minutes as they should become available to myself when circulated.

The meeting on Monday between the associations was apparently illuminating. I am told it was not particularly a good one for John Greenhorn. David Baxter the EOS League secretary  played a significant role (He has never been involved for the EOS on the PWG) and came across very well to the Junior side of the meeting. Mr Baxter fired a few questions to Tom Johnston (Yes he was their for the East juniors)  Mr Baxter was apparently suprised at TJ's responses to questions fired at him regarding the PWG meetings. These answers apparently had a different slant on things as to what Mr Geenhorn had been reporting back.  Mr Baxter rightly would back Mr Greenhorn, however doubts surfaced when this included a question from Mr Baxter who asked TJ if he had any idea on the dates for the next PWG & SFA Board meetings. TJ gave him the dates 14th & 18th April. Mr Baxter asked TJ how he knew this, and TJ replied all the delegates including the EOS PWG representatives received an email with the dates.  Mr Baxter asked Mr Greenhorn  why he didn't pass this on and apparently Mr Greenhorn tried to blag his way out of a tricky situation. I am informed from the Junior side that  Mr Baxter may now have some doubts as to the 100% credibility of information being fed back to the EOS board.

Unfortunately for everyone on P&B with all their merger/amalgamation set ups etc, there was no discussion about bringing the regions together, but both parties have agreed to meet again for further talks after the PWG & SFA meeting in April.

To summarise even if everything I have printed above is 100% true ,it really means either nothing has moved forward or the Maxwell position is still in play. Hopefully the PWG minutes will shed some more light in due course. Hopefully minutes will also surface from the meeting between the associations.

Edited March 22, 2019 by superbigal

[AlanCamelonfan]

59 minutes ago, superbigal said:

Okay I have a little meat to put on the bone. I will post identically on the Junior thread and on the EOS thread.  Again I express what I either have in fact or what I am reliably informed. Do not shoot the messenger as I believe I am "a reporting neutral with a few  critical views" and just want the best for everyone going forward.  

To start with one of the few subjective points I have previously made is describing (Wrongly in some opinions) John Greenhorn as what looks like a "Dinasaur" in terms of his apparent contributions to the Lower Sub-Group of the Pyramid working Group. Even his defenders were puzzled by some of the points I made.  This view is again fairly critical in light of what I have heard.  Anyway I ramble so to cut to the chase.

Apparently regarding the recent PWG meeting there have been no minutes circulated as yet.  What I have been told is the meeting was short and sweet around only 40-50 mins. I have heard Mr Maxwell said little to nothing throughout the meeting. I have heard (Not 100% sure who in person but assume Maxwell)  the SFA was not happy with the apparent EOS attitude and stalling. The EOS were still aggrieved about the Juniors potentially continuing their own fixtures and discipline while in the pyramid.  Once again they were told the SFA department could not cope with an extra 140 clubs that is why the SFA are content to allow the Juniors to continue administrating these things.  I have no other details but will post the full minutes as they should become available to myself when circulated.

The meeting on Monday between the associations was apparently illuminating. I am told it was not particularly a good one for John Greenhorn. David Baxter the EOS League secretary  played a significant role (He has never been involved for the EOS on the PWG) and came across very well to the Junior side of the meeting. Mr Baxter fired a few questions to Tom Johnston (Yes he was their for the East juniors)  Mr Baxter was apparently suprised at TJ's responses to questions fired at him regarding the PWG meetings. These answers apparently had a different slant on things as to what Mr Geenhorn had been reporting back.  Mr Baxter rightly would back Mr Greenhorn, however doubts surfaced when this included a question from Mr Baxter who asked TJ if he had any idea on the dates for the next PWG & SFA Board meetings. TJ gave him the dates 14th & 18th April. Mr Baxter asked TJ how he knew this, and TJ replied all the delegates including the EOS PWG representatives received an email with the dates.  Mr Baxter asked Mr Greenhorn  why he didn't pass this on and apparently Mr Greenhorn tried to blag his way out of a tricky situation. I am informed from the Junior side that  Mr Baxter may now have some doubts as to the 100% credibility of information being fed back to the EOS board.

Unfortunately for everyone on P&B with all their merger/amalgamation set ups etc, there was no discussion about bringing the regions together, but both parties have agreed to meet again for further talks after the PWG & SFA meeting in April.

To summarise even if everything I have printed above is 100% true ,it really means either nothing has moved forward or the Maxwell position is still in play. Hopefully the PWG minutes will shed some more light in due course. Hopefully minutes will also surface from the meeting between the associations.

As said on other sidemail nothings happened

[superbigal]

• FFS how do I get posts from other Forum ?
• Anyway Pipedreamer posted over there and worth the response

  9 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

Why would TJ be representing the Rast Region at a meeting between the ERSJFA and EoSFA. The guy thinks the world stops at harthill.

Doesn’t paint the Juniors in a great light given that the two sides met and the focus seems to be on Greenhorn, rather than putting cards on the table and seeing how to sort it out for the good of football clubs in the East of Scotland.  

 

TJ was invited by the East as he represents them at the PWG meetings (I am just reporting this as I also asked the question).

You are possibly correct that TJ took the opportunity to undermine Greenhorn.  They certainly have history on the PWG minutes.

Apparently the EOS were "not well prepared" was how I was told it went.

I think the key is that Baxter will apparently become a more involved player from the EOS side which I believe is viewed as a good move on the Junior side.

Edited March 22, 2019 by superbigal

[Dev]

1 hour ago, superbigal said:

Okay I have a little meat to put on the bone. I will post identically on the Junior thread and on the EOS thread.  Again I express what I either have in fact or what I am reliably informed. Do not shoot the messenger as I believe I am "a reporting neutral with a few  critical views" and just want the best for everyone going forward.  

To start with one of the few subjective points I have previously made is describing (Wrongly in some opinions) John Greenhorn as what looks like a "Dinasaur" in terms of his apparent contributions to the Lower Sub-Group of the Pyramid working Group. Even his defenders were puzzled by some of the points I made.  This view is again fairly critical in light of what I have heard.  Anyway I ramble so to cut to the chase.

Apparently regarding the recent PWG meeting there have been no minutes circulated as yet.  What I have been told is the meeting was short and sweet around only 40-50 mins. I have heard Mr Maxwell said little to nothing throughout the meeting. I have heard (Not 100% sure who in person but assume Maxwell)  the SFA was not happy with the apparent EOS attitude and stalling. The EOS were still aggrieved about the Juniors potentially continuing their own fixtures and discipline while in the pyramid.  Once again they were told the SFA department could not cope with an extra 140 clubs that is why the SFA are content to allow the Juniors to continue administrating these things.  I have no other details but will post the full minutes as they should become available to myself when circulated.

The meeting on Monday between the associations was apparently illuminating. I am told it was not particularly a good one for John Greenhorn. David Baxter the EOS League secretary  played a significant role (He has never been involved for the EOS on the PWG) and came across very well to the Junior side of the meeting. Mr Baxter fired a few questions to Tom Johnston (Yes he was their for the East juniors)  Mr Baxter was apparently suprised at TJ's responses to questions fired at him regarding the PWG meetings. These answers apparently had a different slant on things as to what Mr Geenhorn had been reporting back.  Mr Baxter rightly would back Mr Greenhorn, however doubts surfaced when this included a question from Mr Baxter who asked TJ if he had any idea on the dates for the next PWG & SFA Board meetings. TJ gave him the dates 14th & 18th April. Mr Baxter asked TJ how he knew this, and TJ replied all the delegates including the EOS PWG representatives received an email with the dates.  Mr Baxter asked Mr Greenhorn  why he didn't pass this on and apparently Mr Greenhorn tried to blag his way out of a tricky situation. I am informed from the Junior side that  Mr Baxter may now have some doubts as to the 100% credibility of information being fed back to the EOS board.

Unfortunately for everyone on P&B with all their merger/amalgamation set ups etc, there was no discussion about bringing the regions together, but both parties have agreed to meet again for further talks after the PWG & SFA meeting in April.

To summarise even if everything I have printed above is 100% true ,it really means either nothing has moved forward or the Maxwell position is still in play. Hopefully the PWG minutes will shed some more light in due course. Hopefully minutes will also surface from the meeting between the associations.

I remain puzzled by the SFA being, apparently,  unable to afford additional Licencing or Discipline staff yet it can afford to continue to fund an individual allocated to "administer" 140 or so Junior clubs which are well capable of organising and administering themselves, regardless as to how the Pyramid is structured.

These three new leagues wish to be Senior, so be Senior, start acting like it. Accept individual responsibility and take the credit when they get it right rather than presume that any success is down to the SFA's Admin. They have the ability to go without this spoon-feeding/leading by the nostrils from the SFA, via the SFA Admin.  Make up your own minds about how you wish to go ahead and get on with it instead of playing the "professional victim" who is always looking to blame some-one or something else when things don't go according to plan. They have enough clubs and support to fund an independent existence without unnecessary outside "guidance", I really mean interference. 

Just considering the geographical spread of the three Junior Regions (and the fuss over clubs travel distances to matches on this web site) wouldn't it seem obvious that the three Junior Regions should administer themselves? Why have some-one from Glasgow directing traffic in the East or North? The West can look after itself!

In any case the issue of Discipline, Registrations, etc can be dealt with using modern technology. I notice the a nearby smaller footballing nation is introducing this sort of thing for clubs of similar standard in time for 2019/20. Surely this cannot be an insurmountable issue for the SFA, particularly if they cannot "afford the staff" but can afford an entirely superfluous  Juniors admin person - and have to do so because the Junior Regions are so incapable?  They ain't!

Sadly, in many ways, particularly for the Junior traditions, the East Region Juniors have been significantly weakened following the departure  of the main South of Tay Bridge clubs to the EOS. Unless this is going to be reversed  (and why would that seem likely?) the best thing all round is a Merger. However, the EOS is a competent organisation and the ERJFA needs to set aside the disappointment and move forward in a constructive manner. Even the most ardent Juniors fan doesn't pretend that the remaining East Juniors are, on balance, comparable with the 2019/20 EOS Premier Division, so why go through this fantasy i.e. pretending that they are on a par. That boat has sailed. Get on with it. Take responsibility so that the better ERJFA clubs can rise to their true level without unnecessary hold-ups. Then we shall see a high quality semi-pro league in the east feeding into the Lowland League. The same would follow in the West, and North, PDQ. Don't play of-field games or be political pawns in the hands of those who may not be that bothered about you (rather than their wage packet).

The present strategy of a tired tiny minority of alleged Juniors supporters seems to have some sort of "hard done by / lets Provoke anyone who doesn't agree and use the reaction against 'em" approach at its' core. Wind up anyone who thinks differently or smear them, they're fair game, and the game is the important thing - rather than the good of semi-pro football.  Of course, this is just from a very small group who are dead scared of change. In olden days in Yorkshire they used to call them Luddites. Now we have the Scottish semi-pre football version! There is a risk that their attitudes will create resentment and grievances for years to come. All of which is avoidable. Also, it is not representative of those many thousands of Juniors supporters who have their clubs at heart. Time to ditch the "Nay-Sayers" and move forward.

[superbigal]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

 

The present strategy of a tired tiny minority of alleged Juniors supporters seems to have some sort of "hard done by / lets Provoke anyone who doesn't agree and use the reaction against 'em" approach at its' core. Wind up anyone who thinks differently or smear them, they're fair game, and the game is the important thing - rather than the good of semi-pro football.  Of course, this is just from a very small group who are dead scared of change. In olden days in Yorkshire they used to call them Luddites. Now we have the Scottish semi-pre football version! There is a risk that their attitudes will create resentment and grievances for years to come. All of which is avoidable. Also, it is not representative of those many thousands of Juniors supporters who have their clubs at heart. Time to ditch the "Nay-Sayers" and move forward.

I like your post but the one caveat is regarding the hard done by bit.

If the "Maxwell Deal" as it stands moves forward there will be likely no dissenters in the Junior camp (Certainly in the East).

The current dissenters I believe are just engaging in Tit for Tat with an element of the new EOS.. Understandably the "current" deal is unpalatable to the EOS.

 

That and a couple of posters (Not naming anyone rhyming with Logsy for instance ) stirring the pot

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by superbigal

[GNU_Linux]

Interesting tweet from the Haddington secretary:

 

 

 

[Talbot 1978]

Where the **** have I been stirring the pot asshole?

Gogsy you do nothing but stir up crap on this forum. Take a step back from winding folk up.

[The Mantis]

4 hours ago, superbigal said:

• FFS how do I get posts from other Forum ?
•  

Use the multi quote function: click on the  "+" next to "quote" then go over to the other forum and you will see "quote 1 post".

[Beenzon-Toste]

I remain puzzled by the SFA being, apparently,  unable to afford additional Licencing or Discipline staff yet it can afford to continue to fund an individual allocated to "administer" 140 or so Junior clubs which are well capable of organising and administering themselves, regardless as to how the Pyramid is structured.

These three new leagues wish to be Senior, so be Senior, start acting like it. Accept individual responsibility and take the credit when they get it right rather than presume that any success is down to the SFA's Admin. They have the ability to go without this spoon-feeding/leading by the nostrils from the SFA, via the SFA Admin.  Make up your own minds about how you wish to go ahead and get on with it instead of playing the "professional victim" who is always looking to blame some-one or something else when things don't go according to plan. They have enough clubs and support to fund an independent existence without unnecessary outside "guidance", I really mean interference. 

Just considering the geographical spread of the three Junior Regions (and the fuss over clubs travel distances to matches on this web site) wouldn't it seem obvious that the three Junior Regions should administer themselves? Why have some-one from Glasgow directing traffic in the East or North? The West can look after itself!

In any case the issue of Discipline, Registrations, etc can be dealt with using modern technology. I notice the a nearby smaller footballing nation is introducing this sort of thing for clubs of similar standard in time for 2019/20. Surely this cannot be an insurmountable issue for the SFA, particularly if they cannot "afford the staff" but can afford an entirely superfluous  Juniors admin person - and have to do so because the Junior Regions are so incapable?  They ain't!

Sadly, in many ways, particularly for the Junior traditions, the East Region Juniors have been significantly weakened following the departure  of the main South of Tay Bridge clubs to the EOS. Unless this is going to be reversed  (and why would that seem likely?) the best thing all round is a Merger. However, the EOS is a competent organisation and the ERJFA needs to set aside the disappointment and move forward in a constructive manner. Even the most ardent Juniors fan doesn't pretend that the remaining East Juniors are, on balance, comparable with the 2019/20 EOS Premier Division, so why go through this fantasy i.e. pretending that they are on a par. That boat has sailed. Get on with it. Take responsibility so that the better ERJFA clubs can rise to their true level without unnecessary hold-ups. Then we shall see a high quality semi-pro league in the east feeding into the Lowland League. The same would follow in the West, and North, PDQ. Don't play of-field games or be political pawns in the hands of those who may not be that bothered about you (rather than their wage packet).

The present strategy of a tired tiny minority of alleged Juniors supporters seems to have some sort of "hard done by / lets Provoke anyone who doesn't agree and use the reaction against 'em" approach at its' core. Wind up anyone who thinks differently or smear them, they're fair game, and the game is the important thing - rather than the good of semi-pro football.  Of course, this is just from a very small group who are dead scared of change. In olden days in Yorkshire they used to call them Luddites. Now we have the Scottish semi-pre football version! There is a risk that their attitudes will create resentment and grievances for years to come. All of which is avoidable. Also, it is not representative of those many thousands of Juniors supporters who have their clubs at heart. Time to ditch the "Nay-Sayers" and move forward.

So, now we're meant to take guidance from someone that believes that the SJFA is funded by the SFA.
More to the point though, surely this ongoing shambles of no leadership or urgency from the SFA, proves that each association is better served by running it's own affairs.

[santheman]

52 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

So, now we're meant to take guidance from someone that believes that the SJFA is funded by the SFA.
More to the point though, surely this ongoing shambles of no leadership or urgency from the SFA, proves that each association is better served by running it's own affairs.

Good post

Too many posters who know sweet fanny adams about how the Juniors are run  and just like to jump on the bandwagon

 

[Talbot 1978]

Ok I was just checking my posting record so I thought I would reply. On this thread since the Start of February I have made something like 70 posts so averaging between 1-2 per day. Out of those posts can you please post the ones where you think I have been stirring the pot as superbigass seems to claim I have been.
I will treat the bit in bold with the contempt it deserves coming from you.

Treat it all you want. Someone else has found you out too.

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

Good post

Too many posters who know sweet fanny adams about how the Juniors are run  and just like to jump on the bandwagon

 

Sandy.

out of interest, what would you expect to be on Tom's job description as full time SJFA Secretary? The regions run themselves, do they not (in terms of their own competitions, fixtures and discipline within that)? Registrations are done online through the SFA Extranet.

So that leaves administering the Scottish Junior Cup and reinstatements.

What else, specific to the SJFA, needs done? Marketing? Media? Corresponding? I know he has roles on various committees but they are not always SJFA specific, and I'd imagine do not meet that regularly?

Edited March 22, 2019 by cmontheloknow

[AlanCamelonfan]

31 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Sandy.

out of interest, what would you expect to be on Tom's job description as full time SJFA Secretary? The regions run themselves, do they not (in terms of their own competitions, fixtures and discipline within that)? Registrations are done online through the SFA Extranet.

So that leaves administering the Scottish Junior Cup and reinstatements.

What else, specific to the SJFA, needs done? Marketing? Media? Corresponding? I know he has roles on various committees but they are not always SJFA specific, and I'd imagine do not meet that regularly?

Sweet fa their is no need for them.  Trying to make Greenhorn look the bad guy sums it up. 

[Jason King]

TJ sneaking out of Hampden this evening on a mission.....

[GNU_Linux]

It's official.
SFA have proposed that there is a four way playoff for access to the Lowland League starting next season.
The boards of the EOS AND Lowland League have proposed rejecting this proposal. They are consulting their clubs.

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

 

 

 

Yes byt when eos and lowland league vote against it will be back to square one complete and utter pointlessness

[superbigal]

SFA wont be allowing votes on this.  Maxwell has made it pretty clear from the start.