Junior football, what is the future?

[Cameron Wilson]

8 hours ago, Robert James said:

Finally, I wonder how soon clubs will be officially notified of  the outcome of the PWG meeting. 

I wonder how long it will take news from the PWG meeting tonight to filter onto the P&B forum? A lack of official news or statements on Pyramid developments has been a constant (and indeed part of the problem) right from day one.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Cameron Wilson

[Burnie_man]

I'm not going to reveal any details of private conversations I've had with any of the people who I've known for years in Junior circles, suffice to say that a lot of them were lukewarm towards the pyramid at the beginning and their attitudes haven't changed, in fact a lot are even less keen now. The attitude is if they move into a pyramid then fine but if TJ comes back and tells them it's not happening then they will just get on with it.
Call it apathy or lethargy but you have to realise that a lot of the lower league clubs are run on a shoestring by a small band of volunteers who are happy just to keep their team in existence and can't really be bothered with change, hence all the possible  benefits of applying for grants, setting up youth teams, becoming Community Clubs  just seems like an unnecessary chore to them.
They are constantly being told that nothing would change if they moved into a pyramid so some are saying if that's the case then why bother.
I'm not saying all the clubs have this attitude but a fair number do.
 

Thanks for clarifying.

[glensmad]

32 minutes ago, santheman said:

I'm not going to reveal any details of private conversations I've had with any of the people who I've known for years in Junior circles, suffice to say that a lot of them were lukewarm towards the pyramid at the beginning and their attitudes haven't changed, in fact a lot are even less keen now. The attitude is if they move into a pyramid then fine but if TJ comes back and tells them it's not happening then they will just get on with it.

Call it apathy or lethargy but you have to realise that a lot of the lower league clubs are run on a shoestring by a small band of volunteers who are happy just to keep their team in existence and can't really be bothered with change, hence all the possible  benefits of applying for grants, setting up youth teams, becoming Community Clubs  just seems like an unnecessary chore to them.

They are constantly being told that nothing would change if they moved into a pyramid so some are saying if that's the case then why bother.

I'm not saying all the clubs have this attitude but a fair number do.

 

That's the thing I don't get, though. If nothing is going to change for these lower league clubs (which is the case), then what have they got to lose by going into the pyramid ? Absolutely nothing is the real answer. The lower league teams won't need to apply for grants, they won't need to set up youth teams, they won't need to become Community Clubs, there are no unnecessary chores. Their existence won't change in any way. They will still be playing the same teams in the same league structure.

The benefits to them will be that they will be more marketable, i.e. they can tell their potential fans and sponsors that they are at tier "X" in the Scottish football pyramid, instead of Joe Punter on the street thinking that junior football is for kids, like way too many still do.

I just don't get why any club in the West Region would not want this to happen, as there are absolutely no negatives for them, only positives and opportunities.

[Robert James]

20 minutes ago, santheman said:

I'm not going to reveal any details of private conversations I've had with any of the people who I've known for years in Junior circles, suffice to say that a lot of them were lukewarm towards the pyramid at the beginning and their attitudes haven't changed, in fact a lot are even less keen now. The attitude is if they move into a pyramid then fine but if TJ comes back and tells them it's not happening then they will just get on with it.

Call it apathy or lethargy but you have to realise that a lot of the lower league clubs are run on a shoestring by a small band of volunteers who are happy just to keep their team in existence and can't really be bothered with change, hence all the possible  benefits of applying for grants, setting up youth teams, becoming Community Clubs  just seems like an unnecessary chore to them.

They are constantly being told that nothing would change if they moved into a pyramid so some are saying if that's the case then why bother.

I'm not saying all the clubs have this attitude but a fair number do.

 

I am not entirely surprised that  the views of the SJFA, and some of its clubs, may be changing, particularly since the Licensing requirement now includes floodlights (which I agree with), for new applicants. 

However, Cumnock, and one other West Junior club, have already applied for an SFA licence, and it is understood that Clydebank will do so when the Holm Park redevelopment has been completed. This suggests that not all junior clubs will follow the party line, if pyramid entry is now being questioned.  

 Many of the junior clubs (in the West) obviously want to remain an integral part of the SJFA, and are not aspiring to  advance to the Lowland League level, or beyond.  Probably the  lure of  Scottish Cup entry (if licensed), rather than gaining promotion to the Lowland League, and beyond, was the main motivator when they voted for the pyramid. Plus a fear than some of the more ambitious clubs would 'do a Kelty' and jump ship. What happens regarding the East Region Juniors, could be significant today, if the SJFA  standpoint is the West will only join the pyramid, if the East has a Tier 6 junior feeder league at the same time (?)

[santheman]

Nail on the head RJ

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

No word from the meeting to resolve it all?

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

No word from the meeting to resolve it all?

I'm sure you're not expecting anything today unless some sort of miracle has happened to resolve the issues

But I haven't seen the draw for the South Region Challenge Cup yet. Which I believe is meant to be done today at Hampden as well. So if that's not even public yet, I doubt there'd be any gossip to filter through just yet.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I'm sure you're not expecting anything today unless some sort of miracle has happened to resolve the issues [emoji4]

But I haven't seen the draw for the South Region Challenge Cup yet. Which I believe is meant to be done today at Hampden as well. So if that's not even public yet, I doubt there'd be any gossip to filter through just yet.

Well lets face it either a decision is reached today or can you really see this all going ahead for next year? Just given there are several organisations which need to change rules etc so probably requiring egms etc (i get that juniors have voted to move, but the others need to agree on changes too?)? Seems awfully tight!

[joe hunter]

9 hours ago, Robert James said:

I am not entirely surprised that  the views of the SJFA, and some of its clubs, may be changing, particularly since the Licensing requirement now includes floodlights (which I agree with), for new applicants. 

However, Cumnock, and one other West Junior club, have already applied for an SFA licence, and it is understood that Clydebank will do so when the Holm Park redevelopment has been completed. This suggests that not all junior clubs will follow the party line, if pyramid entry is now being questioned.  

 Many of the junior clubs (in the West) obviously want to remain an integral part of the SJFA, and are not aspiring to  advance to the Lowland League level, or beyond.  Probably the  lure of  Scottish Cup entry (if licensed), rather than gaining promotion to the Lowland League, and beyond, was the main motivator when they voted for the pyramid. Plus a fear than some of the more ambitious clubs would 'do a Kelty' and jump ship. What happens regarding the East Region Juniors, could be significant today, if the SJFA  standpoint is the West will only join the pyramid, if the East has a Tier 6 junior feeder league at the same time (?)

Well said fae that man

[Burnie_man]

I'm sure you're not expecting anything today unless some sort of miracle has happened to resolve the issues [emoji4]
But I haven't seen the draw for the South Region Challenge Cup yet. Which I believe is meant to be done today at Hampden as well. So if that's not even public yet, I doubt there'd be any gossip to filter through just yet.

Draw has been made.

[Cameron Wilson]

14 hours ago, glensmad said:

That's the thing I don't get, though. If nothing is going to change for these lower league clubs (which is the case), then what have they got to lose by going into the pyramid ? Absolutely nothing is the real answer. The lower league teams won't need to apply for grants, they won't need to set up youth teams, they won't need to become Community Clubs, there are no unnecessary chores. Their existence won't change in any way. They will still be playing the same teams in the same league structure.

The benefits to them will be that they will be more marketable, i.e. they can tell their potential fans and sponsors that they are at tier "X" in the Scottish football pyramid, instead of Joe Punter on the street thinking that junior football is for kids, like way too many still do.

I just don't get why any club in the West Region would not want this to happen, as there are absolutely no negatives for them, only positives and opportunities.

A really good post. I would also add that Scotland is simply too small for bigger junior clubs, the likes of Pollock, Talbot, et al to be outside of the main league system. Never mind the Lowland League - SPL2 needs freshening up.

At the same time we have to understand that most non-league clubs, no matter their standard, have playing squads who are in full time work and that is always going to affect their ability to travel. It's perfectly understandable that for the vast majority of clubs, they just want to play locally for the most part. Not only for time reasons but also for financial ones. Again though being in the pyramid need not affect this.

I think the problem lies with bigger junior clubs who aren't keen on the pyramid and relish being a big  fish in a tiny pond. I have a lot of time for Talbot I think what they have achieved is fantastic. But I think if you are winning cups and leagues regularly then you really should be testing yourself at a higher level or at the very least not standing in the way of those who do want to progress.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Cameron Wilson

[cmontheloknow]

6 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

A really good post. I would also add that Scotland is simply too small for bigger junior clubs, the likes of Pollock, Talbot, et al to be outside of the main league system. Never mind the Lowland League - SPL2 needs freshening up.

At the same time we have to understand that most non-league clubs, no matter their standard, have playing squads who are in full time work and that is always going to affect their ability to travel. It's perfectly understandable that for the vast majority of clubs, they just want to play locally for the most part. Not only for time reasons but also for financial ones. Again though being in the pyramid need not affect this.

I think the problem lies with bigger junior clubs who aren't keen on the pyramid and relish being a big  fish in a tiny pond. I have a lot of time for Talbot I think what they have achieved is fantastic. But I think if you are winning cups and leagues regularly then you really should be testing yourself at a higher level or at the very least not standing in the way of those who do want to progress.

1. It's Pollok

2. Half the SPFL have clubs with players who work full-time (a difference perhaps with clubs in the Central Belt at non-league local level is they have a significant proportion of players who are older and perhaps have family commitments. Average age of NL teams is higher than those in part-time SPFL. Some players choose to not seek new club in SPFL upon release). 

3.  Supporters of Talbot / Pollok / any other bigger non-league club (outwith pyramid in Juniors / or in Seniors pre 2013) have had  avery different experience to those of part-time teams in current SPFL. Going to games expecting to see a win, year in, year out. You can't undo that conditioning.

4. The founders of the LL had little to lose (all poorly supported / all would continue to play same historic rivals). For the Juniors, it means change. The East sides embraced it, mostly. The West sides perhaps yet will.

[Burnie_man]

On ‎09‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 19:43, Burnie_man said:

Heard today there's an ERJFA meeting on Tuesday to decide format for next season;

Option a) The North/South Super and North/South Premier format (only 9 clubs in South Super)

Option b) Three Region set-up  North / Central / South  (single Divisions of varying sizes)

Option c) No change

So it's decision day in the ERJFA, which way will it go?  are the majority of clubs in favour of some form of change, or are most happy with the current set-up?

I can see some clubs being unhappy regardless of what is decided.

[AlanCamelonfan]

9 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Twelve teams voting for each option would be a laugh.  What happens then, status quo stands?

Id imagine glenrothes vote won't count 

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Twelve teams voting for each option would be a laugh.  What happens then, status quo stands?

I think what they'd need to do is vote between a and b options, with the winner then up against status quo. At least that's how they used to do votes like this.

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think what they'd need to do is vote between a and b options, with the winner then up against status quo. At least that's how they used to do votes like this.

I imagine the ERJFA will be advised of the PWG outcome yesterday - assuming the meeting took place.

Very quiet. 

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Robert James said:

I imagine the ERJFA will be advised of the PWG outcome yesterday - assuming the meeting took place.

Very quiet. 

I doubt that will have too much bearing on deciding a new structure, but who knows.

[Robert James]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I doubt that will have too much bearing on deciding a new structure, but who knows.

Maybe/maybe not ?

However if the PWG has reached a decision (agreement ?) yesterday about the East Region & the pyramid, I would expect the outcome to be made known to the clubs......especially IF it confirms Tier 6 entry for the junior clubs.  In life, I tend to expect the unexpected !

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Robert James said:

Maybe/maybe not ?

However if the PWG has reached a decision (agreement ?) yesterday about the East Region & the pyramid, I would expect the outcome to be made known to the clubs......especially IF it confirms Tier 6 entry for the junior clubs.  In life, I tend to expect the unexpected !

There wont have been that sort of agreement reached yesterday.

[Duraglit shareholder]

10 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

A really good post. I would also add that Scotland is simply too small for bigger junior clubs, the likes of Pollock, Talbot, et al to be outside of the main league system. Never mind the Lowland League - SPL2 needs freshening up.

At the same time we have to understand that most non-league clubs, no matter their standard, have playing squads who are in full time work and that is always going to affect their ability to travel. It's perfectly understandable that for the vast majority of clubs, they just want to play locally for the most part. Not only for time reasons but also for financial ones. Again though being in the pyramid need not affect this.

I think the problem lies with bigger junior clubs who aren't keen on the pyramid and relish being a big  fish in a tiny pond. I have a lot of time for Talbot I think what they have achieved is fantastic. But I think if you are winning cups and leagues regularly then you really should be testing yourself at a higher level or at the very least not standing in the way of those who do want to progress.

Talbot used to be the tiny fish in the pond, but the hard work by everyone involved at Beechwood over the past 30 plus years have made us the big fish, are we to say sorry for that? You make it sound that its easy to win cups and leagues at our level, i can assure  you its not, we play against very good teams week in week out and a very good Beith side pipped us for the league last season.If you mean the higher level to be the lowland league, its my opinion that teams in the west premiership juniors  are better teams than whats currently in lowland and some in SPL 2.