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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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I dont think we're even sure all 63 West clubs now want to be in the pyramid going by some posts.
I'm not sure why not, as nothing will change for 62 of the 63 teams. The West Region teams have absolutely nothing to lose by joining the pyramid en masse.
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5 minutes ago, glensmad said:
48 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:
I dont think we're even sure all 63 West clubs now want to be in the pyramid going by some posts.

I'm not sure why not, as nothing will change for 62 of the 63 teams. The West Region teams have absolutely nothing to lose by joining the pyramid en masse.

I know, but there's seems to be suggestions not everyone is happy, and there are a few other posts dotted around hinting at this as well. Maybe santheman can expand.

On 04/03/2019 at 18:22, Burnie_man said:

Surely all west clubs would move as a block, are there really a significant number who don't want anything to do with the pyramid?

 

On 04/03/2019 at 18:43, santheman said:

More than you would imagine

 

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On 05/03/2019 at 17:22, Darvel legend said:

I’ve taken little to do with it but I just want my team challenging in the junior game , we spoke to a very successful manager in the lowland league a good few months ago and the crowds at the Games were around 10 !!!! Who the f**k wants that ? And id imagine most teams in the east are regretting going to that nonsense of a league , I’m happy where we are and are ambitious to challenge the talbots and Hurlfords of this world 

 

On 05/03/2019 at 20:24, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Totally in agreement but if say the west joins the pyramid system there are a lot of junior teams who do not want to go inot the seniors, so wonder hwo will that go, will they stay in the division they are in and if they win it or promotion, they can say, 'no thanks, we will stay in this division'.  There are some teams will no interest in becomeing bigger or going to a higher level and just go with their own flow. Nothing wrong with that, it is what it is

 

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I'm not sure why not, as nothing will change for 62 of the 63 teams. The West Region teams have absolutely nothing to lose by joining the pyramid en masse.
The truth of the matter & peoples perceptions of it are two different things sadly
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The truth of the matter & peoples perceptions of it are two different things sadly
Absolutely, there is so much misunderstanding out there. I can't repeat it often enough, nothing will change for 62 of the 63 teams in the West Region. Absolutely nothing. There is nothing to fear in joining the pyramid, only positives and opportunities to gain.
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1 minute ago, glensmad said:
6 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:
The truth of the matter & peoples perceptions of it are two different things sadly

Absolutely, there is so much misunderstanding out there. I can't repeat it often enough, nothing will change for 62 of the 63 teams in the West Region. Absolutely nothing. There is nothing to fear in joining the pyramid, only positives and opportunities to gain.

Spot on!

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If, for example, the West Juniors were to go it alone and opt to join the pyramid next season ,  what "power" does the SJFA have to stop them? What does continuing membership of the SJFA offer them?


They have no power to stop them but there is no league for them to move too. The clubs would be required to set up their own league under the auspices of the SFA but no west club looks like wanting to take the lead for this and also their is no guarantee that SFA would accept them as my take from the minutes that have been put on this site is that the SFA favours the SJFA coming into the pyramid.

I just want a firm decision on what is happening. Clubs need to start preparing for next season and if has been mooted the west will start early next season to make sure their ready in time for the play offs, then clubs need to start planning ground maintenance, pre season etc.
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1 hour ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 


They have no power to stop them but there is no league for them to move too. The clubs would be required to set up their own league under the auspices of the SFA but no west club looks like wanting to take the lead for this and also their is no guarantee that SFA would accept them as my take from the minutes that have been put on this site is that the SFA favours the SJFA coming into the pyramid.

I just want a firm decision on what is happening. Clubs need to start preparing for next season and if has been mooted the west will start early next season to make sure their ready in time for the play offs, then clubs need to start planning ground maintenance, pre season etc.

 

Yip Agree, There's nothing constant, keeping everyone in the loop from the SFA as far as I'm aware.
Think all the ramifications are causing a headache.
 
I do agree with Arthurlie, that I feel a lot of teams are just waiting to see who goes first in the 'West', sure I heard Cumnock applied for SFA membership.
 
If things happen, I'm sure some of these hypothetical questions have been answered but there is that many pyramid posts on Pie and Bovril, I can find any lol
 
1. If a 'West' league starts will it go to 'tier 6', meaning level with 'EOSL' and 'SOSL'?
2. If 1. happens then the 'East' junior side are right to complain stating their top division has every right to be put on the same level as the 'West' but there's already an 'East o Scotland' league and the 'North' league can say the same, even though my view is the 'West' junior league is stronger than the 'North' and the 'East' junior league.
3. If the West does go to tier 6, what level do teams require to have floodlights and the correct football pitch size as I'm sure its a certain Tier that its a MUST ?
4. I've heard junior teams if they go senior can play for the challenge cup or if some of them have full SFA requirements can they play in the Scottish Qualifying cup as Auchinleck did. Or what will happen with the junior cup, are teams that go senior allowed to still play for that?
5. Even though all the 'West' teams voted to join together, some teams might change their mind, thus what could happen to them when most leave?
6. Not forgetting, have there been any amateur teams apply for SFA senior membership, so what divison/tier would they enter at?
 
The best thing to get it all sorted if for the SFA to come out and get an open dialogue going and informing everyone what is going to happen
Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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1. The assumption is that yes, this will be the case. Nobody appears to have an objection to the West Juniors going in at Tier 6.

2. Nobody knows. The SJFA want this to happen, the EoS don't.

3. No license is required at Tier 6, therefore there are no specific requirements for floodlights or particular sizes of pitches. Only after promotion to the Lowland League would these be required (note that floodlights were not previously required for a license, but are from 2019 onwards).

4. Any team with a license can play in the Scottish Cup, but those in Tier 6 or below will be required to play in Preliminary Round(s). Note that there is no Scottish Qualifying Cup - this was scrapped in 2007. Auchinleck don't have a license, but were able to play in the Scottish Cup because they qualified as Scottish Junior Cup champions. The SJFA West champions also receive a place in the Scottish Cup, and it is assumed that the Tier 6 West League winners would still have this opportunity.

5. This is not clear.

Edited by craigkillie
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1 minute ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:
Yip Agree, There's nothing constant, keeping everyone in the loop from the SFA as far as I'm aware.
Think all the ramifications are causing a headache.
 
I do agree with Arthurlie, that I feel a lot of teams are just waiting to see who goes first in the 'West', sure I heard Cumnock applied for SFA membership.
 
If things happen, I'm sure some of these hypothetical questions have been answered but there is that many pyramid posts on Pie and Bovril, I can find any lol
 
1. If a 'West' league starts will it go to 'tier 6', meaning level with 'EOSL' and 'SOSL'?
2. If 1. happens then the 'East' junior side are right to complain stating their top division has every right to be put on the same level as the 'West' but there's already an 'East o Scotland' league and the 'North' league can say the same, even though my view is the 'West' junior league is stronger than the 'North' and the 'East' junior league.
3. If the West does go to tier 6, what level do teams require to have floodlights and the correct football pitch size as I'm sure its a certain Tier that its a MUST ?
4. I've heard junior teams if they go senior can play for the challenge cup or if some of them have full SFA requirements can they play in the Scottish Qualifying cup as Auchinleck did. Or what will happen with the junior cup, are teams that go senior allowed to still play for that?
5. Even though all the 'West' teams voted to join together, some teams might change their mind, thus what could happen to them when most leave?
 
The best thing to get it all sorted if for the SFA to come out and get an open dialogue going and informing everyone what is going to happen

1. A West league is seen as acceptable to everyone.

2. East have an advert up on their website saying their Tier 6, so they're certainly putting up a fight over it.

3. Tier 5 and above is when the various forms of SFA licensing take effect. Tier 6 clubs don't have to worry about it unless they want to get promoted or their SFA membership.

4. If you get a SFA license you can compete in the SFA Scottish Cup every year without having to qualify for it through another competition. Junior clubs will continue to compete in the Junior Scottish Cup.

What isn't known is if a Junior club wins promotion to the Lowland League would they still be able to compete in the Junior Cup at that point as they would have other commitments.

As for the Challenge Cup, i'm guessing you mean the South Region Challenge Cup and not the Irn Bru Cup. A Junior club wouldn't have to compete in the South Region Challenge Cup as it's no longer an official SFA competition. It's just organised by the senior leagues. In fact, the North Region Challenge Cup was scraped once the SFA stopped funding it.

5. Junior league(s) and senior West league(s).

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19 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

5. Even though all the 'West' teams voted to join together, some teams might change their mind, thus what could happen to them when most leave?

Surely it will be just the same as seems to be proposed in the East?

The remaining rump of West Junior clubs will have their own Level 6 West Junior Super Premiership overlapping the same geography of the West Senior leagues and the winner of that league will play the winner of the West Senior League to play the winner of the South of Scotland to play the winner of the East of Scotland league. :lol:

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38 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:
 
5. Even though all the 'West' teams voted to join together, some teams might change their mind, thus what could happen to them when most leave?

AIUI the SJFA members have voted to join the pyramid en masse. If that should be achieved (which I seriously doubt), then any mind-changers would presumably  have to form their own "breakaway" league(s) and association(s) and apply for affiliation to the SFA.

They could call themselves the Real Juniors, or maybe the Provisional Juniors.

All of this makes Brexit seem a model of sanity and good organisation.

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9 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:


So this meeting will confirm the tier 6 on behalf of all parties, play off arrangements and resolve all the issues allowing for a seamless transfer for the west/east for next year?

Brilliant and concise summing up of the whole issue.

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7 hours ago, superbigal said:

In theory the sub lower PWG meeting tomorrow should simply be to action points outstanding in the January minutes.  So I review them again to see what is "up in the air".

So the 1st outstanding point is the draft play off rules. George Fraser LL now has presumably had another 2 months to get a proposal in place that is accepted or ready for acceptance by the EOS, SOS, SLFL and SFA.  In January it was only the EOS who had to run any information past their own board. It was noted by Maxwell that any "stalling for the wrong reasons" may be "considered" by the SFA board.  Maxwell also was noted as saying he would produce a proposal to allow the SLFL to progress George Fraser's "Rules"

2nd point is the group discussed the demarcation line and geographical issues.  There does not appear to be any indication at this point of objections to a move to the line. Also as the next paragraph is the EOS saying they are not objecting to everything although it looks like they are.  They then identify objections in particular to discipline, as opposed to the line (which you would think they would object to).  No obvious objection from the LL to anything !!    I suspect this will have to be discussed at tomorrows meeting, especially with LL advertising for a vacancy in line with the current demarcation line.

3rd Point is the EOS then finally woke up and kicked of about overlapping geography. TJ warns them to stop going over "old ground" etc.  Laura Dougan eventually requests all objections are "aired" promptly as opposed to further down the line.  This should mean that tomorrows meeting either finally kills of the EOS objections and moves demarcation etc, or as TJ warns the "Board Directive" (Which is his gospel) is being cast aside by this Sub Group.  The SFA statement he was hoping for before now has never materialised (I was genuinly led to believe said statement was forthcoming).

 

 

I agree that the issues you highlighted, reflect the matters outstanding from the last PWG (sub ?) minutes, which I assume will form the basis of the Agenda for it's meeting later today. However there are also the following matters, which need to be considered :

(1) what is the official SJFA position about the NR Junior league, joining/not joining the pyramid for next season ?

(2) will the PWG be making a recommendation to the SFA (or SFA Board ?) about moving the boundary so that a future  play-off winning club (north of the Tay) could be promoted to the Lowland League. (SPFL & HFL agreement would also be required. if the boundary is to be moved). If so, what is the timescale ?

(3) What is the Highland League's view about accepting a north  pyramid feeder league within the Highland area, which would  also include junior clubs from (north of) Tayside, either now, or in the near future  ?  

(4) what is the SJFA's official position, if  the West Region Junior league is granted pyramid 'feeder' league status, but the East Region's entry is delayed for(say) a year, whilst the issues in paras (2) & (3)  above are  resolved ?

(5))  would a current 'west' senior club (eg Edusport Academy) be accepted into the SJFA Superleague, if/when (in the future) it is relegated from the Lowland League ?

(6) what is the official view of the EoS League, to the changes proposed in the East for next season ? (This assumes that the EoS has determined what its formal position is).

Having read the 2 previous sets of PWG Minutes posted on here, my view is that its meetings seem to be random & unfocused, which side step the above key issues.

Surely the PWG's  role is to agree outcomes which are in the BEST INTEREST of Scottish Non League Football FOR THE FUTURE. Their deliberations need to reflect an awareness of, and understand the answers to the above key questions, in order to implement an effective pyramid structure. It is NOT the PWG's role, to be influenced by present politics, nor history.   

Finally, I wonder how soon clubs will be officially notified of  the outcome of the PWG meeting. 

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7 hours ago, Robert James said:

(6) what is the official view of the EoS League, to the changes proposed in the East for next season ? (This assumes that the EoS has determined what its formal position is).

No changes have been proposed to date, it might come today, who knows.

The line the EoS have always taken is that they are the senior tier 6 / 7 league in the east of Scotland and there is no need to bring in another league at the same level covering the same area, that was the clear message when meetings were held with clubs this time last year and looking at the PWG minutes, is the line taken at those meetings.

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On point 5. Don't see a problem with that and I'm sure that's one of the things that TJ will be discussing with the relevant authorities, HOWEVER under the current constitution any team wishing to join the WRJSFA has to apply, satisfy ground criteria AND be accepted (voted in)by the member clubs so it may take a change to the constitution  as it stands to accommodate this.

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14 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I know, but there's seems to be suggestions not everyone is happy, and there are a few other posts dotted around hinting at this as well. Maybe santheman can expand.

 

 

I'm not going to reveal any details of private conversations I've had with any of the people who I've known for years in Junior circles, suffice to say that a lot of them were lukewarm towards the pyramid at the beginning and their attitudes haven't changed, in fact a lot are even less keen now. The attitude is if they move into a pyramid then fine but if TJ comes back and tells them it's not happening then they will just get on with it.

Call it apathy or lethargy but you have to realise that a lot of the lower league clubs are run on a shoestring by a small band of volunteers who are happy just to keep their team in existence and can't really be bothered with change, hence all the possible  benefits of applying for grants, setting up youth teams, becoming Community Clubs  just seems like an unnecessary chore to them.

They are constantly being told that nothing would change if they moved into a pyramid so some are saying if that's the case then why bother.

I'm not saying all the clubs have this attitude but a fair number do.

 

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