Junior football, what is the future?

[cmontheloknow]

8 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Yeah I thought something like that happened but wasn't too sure as I was thinking how it would work for the U19s and U21s youth teams.  Regarding the U19s players and the U21s players are they allowed to have DUEL contracts with these teams if the teams are senior like the youth players have with junior sides, even though these senior teams may have a development squad ?

 

While we are at it, if any junior teams applies for senior membership and are accepted what will happen to the youth players already on DUEL contracts, are they let go or do they have to become full contract players or be part of the development squad ?

Well there's less need for it, so a dual registration (or delayed transfer) is a bit superfluous. Why have a squad of 18 / 19 year olds to play Fridays and still require to have another handful who also play on a sunday with their 19s AND be available for Saturdays too..? Beyond common sense, I'm not sure if there's anything in black and white that prevents it though.

On the second point, it's not relevant as all amateur registrations expire at the end of the season anyway. If a Junior side has players on delayed transfers from the SYFA (at Lok we have Coutts for example, McWilliams has now signed for Pollok), they will also be amateurs and will lapse at season's end. It's up to the coaching staff of any development squad what happens next.

Just to round off what I was saying, Juniors only sign players on delayed transfers from the SYFA ranks BECAUSE they don't have their own official youth squads. Juniors can only register 25 players. I think (but don't know for sure) that the delayed transfers from the SYFA count towards this. But there was a recently added (within last 10 years) line in the SJFA rulebook that allows for youth players to be associated - up to 20 from memory. Was that to allow for a Junior side to run its own team in the SYFA? I'm glad I'm not a match secretary!

Edited March 7, 2019 by cmontheloknow

[Guest]

In the pyramid there is no such thing as a dual contract. Players who register to play for the under 20s in the development league sign the exact same form as those playing in the first team squad. This is deliberate to allow the first team and under 20s to be fluid, as first team players can play up to 6 games overage for the 20s and 20s players can be named in the first team squad a many times as they are required over a season. The dual contract thing doesn't exist.

My club has benefitted greatly from this set up and it has allowed for first team players to get match fitness when returning from injury in the 20s games and exposed our under 20s to the first team environment and aided their overall development. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

9 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:

9 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

No he stopped doing the reports because he was a Junior supporter. This season we have won 2 cups and are in Scottish for next year and going for our licence 

Thats utterly tragic behaviour. I assume the Falkirk Herald was the main source of press coverage for Camelon?

In terms of newspapers yes but he retired i think the club just send the sports editor info now

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

In the pyramid there is no such thing as a dual contract. Players who register to play for the under 20s in the development league sign the exact same form as those playing in the first team squad. This is deliberate to allow the first team and under 20s to be fluid, as first team players can play up to 6 games overage for the 20s and 20s players can be named in the first team squad a many times as they are required over a season. The dual contract thing doesn't exist.

My club has benefitted greatly from this set up and it has allowed for first team players to get match fitness when returning from injury in the 20s games and exposed our under 20s to the first team environment and aided their overall development. 

The Lowland U20 league has undoubtedly attracted a few Juniors clubs to look closer at the EoS and ultimately move, also seems to have played a part in Glenrothes move. U21 football is virtually non-existent outside the west, leaving U19 as the highest age group in the youth ranks.  As you say, the U20 team can be used as a de-facto reserve side by the senior side as well as a useful stepping stone from U17/U19 football.  Looking forward to us getting started next season after the false start this season, gives me some Friday night fitba to watch.

[non_sequitur]

14 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Bullying? You literally got emptied on here last time for comparing people who disagreed with you to nazi collaborators. Plenty people having disagreements on here over various things and not having to resort to the tedious tantrum you’ve had on here. Get over yourself.

Boy needs emptied again a complete walloper

[non_sequitur]

23 hours ago, superbigal said:

Suspect Glenrothes juniors is a knee-jerk reaction to the strollers. No way can they compete with the Glenrothes strollers set up through the age groups. It is doomed to fail.

Only thing strollers are missing is an actual adult team. Juniors are ripe for the picking.

 

Strollers are a big youth club and want to dae the same as Inverkeithing and I think that Austin Macphee club have been looking at things anaw

[Talbot 1978]

Boy needs emptied again a complete walloper

[emoji23]

[cmontheloknow]

7 hours ago, G4Mac said:

In the pyramid there is no such thing as a dual contract. Players who register to play for the under 20s in the development league sign the exact same form as those playing in the first team squad. This is deliberate to allow the first team and under 20s to be fluid, as first team players can play up to 6 games overage for the 20s and 20s players can be named in the first team squad a many times as they are required over a season. The dual contract thing doesn't exist.

My club has benefitted greatly from this set up and it has allowed for first team players to get match fitness when returning from injury in the 20s games and exposed our under 20s to the first team environment and aided their overall development. 

Just thinking it over, it does exist in the pyramid. Jeanfield Swifts are an example of a club who have players who play SYFA (with their own team) but are also eligible for EoS.

http://www.jeanfieldswifts.co.uk/teams/140177/player/sam-townsley-1517867

But as I said, there's little point in doing this if you have your own U20s.

[Dunfermline Jag]

35 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Just thinking it over, it does exist in the pyramid. Jeanfield Swifts are an example of a club who have players who play SYFA (with their own team) but are also eligible for EoS.

http://www.jeanfieldswifts.co.uk/teams/140177/player/sam-townsley-1517867

But as I said, there's little point in doing this if you have your own U20s.

I am no expert but I have been told that an SSL/U20 registration will allow a player to play in an SYFA match ( assuming he meets the age criteria) up to 6 times in a season and a player on an SYFA form can play in the EOS or U20's 12 times provided they have their club's written permission (Cup games  excluded in both cases.)

Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts have certainly used at least 4 of their under 17's across several competitive U20 games and 1 EOS  league game this year.

[Cumbo]

Just thinking it over, it does exist in the pyramid. Jeanfield Swifts are an example of a club who have players who play SYFA (with their own team) but are also eligible for EoS.

http://www.jeanfieldswifts.co.uk/teams/140177/player/sam-townsley-1517867

But as I said, there's little point in doing this if you have your own U20s.

Sam is not a dual. He's signed for our 17s but is in our squad most weeks so felt it right to include him in squad on website.

 

As a trailist he can play as many league or qualifying league games as possible.

 

He has played in several cup games but was registered then released to allow him back to youths.

 

The EOS and SYFA are trying to work something out regarding dual registration of those not in your under 20s team.

 

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, non_sequitur said:

Strollers are a big youth club and want to dae the same as Inverkeithing and I think that Austin Macphee club have been looking at things anaw

See today's post  about AM Soccer, on the New Clubs for the  EoS  forum.

[cmontheloknow]

5 minutes ago, Cumbo said:

Sam is not a dual. He's signed for our 19s but is in our squad most weeks so felt it right to include him in squad on website.

As a trailist he can play as many league or qualifying league games as possible.

He has played in several cup games but was registered then released to allow him back to youths.

The EOS and SYFA are trying to work something out regarding dual registration of those not in your under 20s team.

Good info - cheers!

[Bestsinceslicebread]

9 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Well there's less need for it, so a dual registration (or delayed transfer) is a bit superfluous. Why have a squad of 18 / 19 year olds to play Fridays and still require to have another handful who also play on a sunday with their 19s AND be available for Saturdays too..? Beyond common sense, I'm not sure if there's anything in black and white that prevents it though.

On the second point, it's not relevant as all amateur registrations expire at the end of the season anyway. If a Junior side has players on delayed transfers from the SYFA (at Lok we have Coutts for example, McWilliams has now signed for Pollok), they will also be amateurs and will lapse at season's end. It's up to the coaching staff of any development squad what happens next.

Just to round off what I was saying, Juniors only sign players on delayed transfers from the SYFA ranks BECAUSE they don't have their own official youth squads. Juniors can only register 25 players. I think (but don't know for sure) that the delayed transfers from the SYFA count towards this. But there was a recently added (within last 10 years) line in the SJFA rulebook that allows for youth players to be associated - up to 20 from memory. Was that to allow for a Junior side to run its own team in the SYFA? I'm glad I'm not a match secretary!

Regarding your last bit I think they arranged duel contracts due to the fact that if a player was in the first team squad for, say 4 weeks, on subs bench and say gets on 20 minutes, it means the boy only had 20 minutes game time in, sometimes a month, thus with duel contracts it helped the lad also play for his youth team if they played a different say, (that's one reason for the duels but I don't think it was main reason for them).

 

It is something that needs to be addressed with duel contracts, for example, ( as far as I'm aware), Sena was developed at Pollok Soccer Academy, he went to Pollok FC, played 4 games and the training sessions and then went out to Partick Thistle,  visa problems started so Pollok got him back on a certain youth coach say so as he was offered, other teams but once at Pollok he was sold back to Partick Thistle and the soccer academy didn't receive a penny, when they were the ones who were the main developers and form his experience of the youth teams previously. He already knew, how to adapt systems, styles of play that would be asked etc..  This is a flaw that soccer academies have to get sorted as well, what happens when the youths are potentially moving on.

 

I'm saying this because i believe a lot of junior teams who move to the senior league will rely heavily on their academics or their youth section connections.  I don't think a lot of junior clubs will have an academy, maybe just a connection to some youth teams as it may need money poured into starting or operating an academy that some of these teams just don't have when they venture to the seniors

[Valemafia]

18 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I believe the same is at Rossvale juniors when thay play home at their ground at huntershill. I need it clarified though as I was told committee men stand with buckets for donations before the game at the entry point.

I haven't been to their ground to watch them yet but if i did I would put money as a donation anyways 

No an entry fee is payable at Gate as it is at every junior ground the bucket collection is For free tea & coffee with the donation going to Charity Back Onside at Half Time 

[cmontheloknow]

3 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Regarding your last bit I think they arranged duel contracts due to the fact that if a player was in the first team squad for, say 4 weeks, on subs bench and say gets on 20 minutes, it means the boy only had 20 minutes game time in, sometimes a month, thus with duel contracts it helped the lad also play for his youth team if they played a different say, (that's one reason for the duels but I don't think it was main reason for them).

 

It is something that needs to be addressed with duel contracts, for example, ( as far as I'm aware), Sena was developed at Pollok Soccer Academy, he went to Pollok FC, played 4 games and the training sessions and then went out to Partick Thistle,  visa problems started so Pollok got him back on a certain youth coach say so as he was offered, other teams but once at Pollok he was sold back to Partick Thistle and the soccer academy didn't receive a penny, when they were the ones who were the main developers and form his experience of the youth teams previously. He already knew, how to adapt systems, styles of play that would be asked etc..  This is a flaw that soccer academies have to get sorted as well, what happens when the youths are potentially moving on.

 

I'm saying this because i believe a lot of junior teams who move to the senior league will rely heavily on their academics or their youth section connections.  I don't think a lot of junior clubs will have an academy, maybe just a connection to some youth teams as it may need money poured into starting or operating an academy that some of these teams just don't have when they venture to the seniors

Sena was an amateur so very little cash could go anywhere and AFAIK Jimmy Johnstone Academy had him far longer than PUSA.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 minutes ago, Valemafia said:

No an entry fee is payable at Gate as it is at every junior ground the bucket collection is For free tea & coffee with the donation going to Charity Back Onside at Half Time 

yeah thanks for that as ive been told different things about if going to a home game so clarity always helps (thumb)

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

Sena was an amateur so very little cash could go anywhere and AFAIK Jimmy Johnstone Academy had him far longer than PUSA.

Its not derogatory or meant to be but I knwo who Sena was with and how long.  I can make comment on Sena development as I watched it as he grew up from U12, my team playing against him at Jimmy Johnstone, he was at Rangers youth before that.
I watched the level he was at when he first joined Pollok and witnessed again the first hand his progressive development at Pollok U19s, so yes I know firsthand on how his progression went.

Every team he was at including Pollok FC was part of his development but the tutelage under the coaching style in his last 2 years at U19s propelled the lad to a higher level.

 

Sena wasn't sold to Partick Thiste for very little money, that I'll leave you to do your own investigating if you want to BUT no matter its something that has to get sorted early doors by all teams who rely on their academy or an academy or a connection to a youth system as I said I believe some teams will reply heavily on their youth to help them in the seniors, even when times are tough and or tight

[cmontheloknow]

21 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Its not derogatory or meant to be but I knwo who Sena was with and how long.  I can make comment on Sena development as I watched it as he grew up from U12, my team playing against him at Jimmy Johnstone, he was at Rangers youth before that.
I watched the level he was at when he first joined Pollok and witnessed again the first hand his progressive development at Pollok U19s, so yes I know firsthand on how his progression went.

Every team he was at including Pollok FC was part of his development but the tutelage under the coaching style in his last 2 years at U19s propelled the lad to a higher level.

 

Sena wasn't sold to Partick Thiste for very little money, that I'll leave you to do your own investigating if you want to BUT no matter its something that has to get sorted early doors by all teams who rely on their academy or an academy or a connection to a youth system as I said I believe some teams will reply heavily on their youth to help them in the seniors, even when times are tough and or tight

Just looking at it in black and white terms - Sena was never on a professional contract at Pollok so legal claims for any compensation below that will be minimal. If a development fee is paid, it is as you know, distributed among his earlier clubs.

Aged 16, Sena joined the PUSA academy in Sept '16, signed on a delayed transfer with Lok in Aug '17 and was released in October '17 to go to Thistle. That fell through due to red tape and after a brief stop at BSC, he re-signed as an amateur for Pollok (not PUSA) in Jan'18, leaving in September '18. He was with PUSA 13 months (Sept 16-Oct 17), including a close season. 

I do completely agree with your point about compensation and at every level of the chain, the bigger club tries to get the best deal for themselves.

Edited March 7, 2019 by cmontheloknow

[FairWeatherFan]

 

[LongTimeLurker]

So a bit like what Spartans had a few seasons back in other words.