Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

On 15/02/2019 at 09:33, Pyramidic said:

With regard to some of the legal info that Burnie_Man and FairWeatherFan have kindly turned out on the two Pyramid threads do we have an issue that the EoSL/EoSFA could potentially take to the Court of Arbitration for Sport ("CAS") or International Council of Arbitration for Sport ("ICAS") if their postion is over-ruled by the SFA?

Are the rules / statutes that have been quoted legally binding in sports terms?

 

Sources: Court of Arbitration for Sport ("CAS")  / International Council of Arbitration for Sport ("ICAS")

https://www.tas-cas.org/en/general-information/frequently-asked-questions.html

https://www.tas-cas.org/en/icas/code-statutes-of-icas-and-cas.html

NB: Copied over from the other thread.

 

For the reasons which I have referred to on the Pyramid forum, I am of the view that litigation is becoming increasingly likely.

Taking legal action is both expensive, and time consuming.

 

[archieb]

11 hours ago, Robert James said:

 

For the reasons which I have referred to on the Pyramid forum, I am of the view that litigation is becoming increasingly likely.

Taking legal action is both expensive, and time consuming.

 

There's a Pyramid FORUM??

Care to enlighten us as to where?

[AlanCamelonfan]

15 minutes ago, archieb said:

There's a Pyramid FORUM??

Care to enlighten us as to where?

I think he means pyramid thread on eos forum

[archieb]

8 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

I think he means pyramid thread on eos forum

Ah, the one with a whole NINETY-FOUR pages to this one's SIX HUNDRED AND NINETY-EIGHT?

FFS that's not even "the" pyramid THREAD, let alone a forum! 

 

[superbigal]

Previously unseen Key missing link between Maxwell Email and January Minutes. 

Gives more context.

 

 

Minutes of Meeting

Sub Group of the Pyramid Working Group 

Wednesday 14 November 2018

Attendance: Ian Maxwell (CE, Scottish Fa) - IM,  Laura Dougan (Head of football Governance Scottish FA) -  LD,  Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Dept Scottish FA)-SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Dept Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary Scottish FA)-VM, Iain McQueen (Asst Secretary/Treasurer SJFA)-IMcQ, Tom Johnston (Secretary SJFA)-TJ, George Fraser (Chairman SLFL)-GF,  Andrew Renwick (Vice-President EOSFA)-AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary EOSFA)-JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary  Southern Counties FA)-RO.

IM welcoming everyone to the first sub-group meeting of the Pyramid Working Group. He confirmed that the Pyramid Working Group had previously discussed the structure and agreed the implementation of the proposed changes for 2019/20.

A disciplinary process comparison report, compiled by VM, was circulated to members.

IM confirmed East, South and Lowland Leagues have fairly similar discipline procedures and fall under the jurusdiction of the Judicial  Panel Protocol. SJFA football is different.

TJ confirmed that he had already looked through the disciplinary comparison document and had no problem with implementing changes within the SJFA to bring its disciplinary systems into line with the Scottish FA's disciplinary systems. He felt that it would benefit the clubs to make these changes and that SJFA clubs would comply with any changes the SJFA made in this respect.

IM asked TJ & IMcQ if they would still impose fines on players, as well as a suspension. TJ stated that they would still impose fines because it does not impact on the incurring or serving of player suspensions.

JG stated that the whole system requires harmonisation not just the discipline.

AR suggested that discipline for all leagues should be the same and, due to this, felt that fines for SJFA players should no longer apply. TJ & IMcQ explained that the fines are used to generate income for the SJFA and its regions. TJ advised that the SJFA administers its own player discipline and suspensions, mainly through volounteers, and the money generated by disciplinary fines was an essential part of these processes.

LD confirmed that the Scottish FA would not deal with the discipline for the SJFA leagues. The administration  of the discipline for these clubs would only fall under the responsibility of the Scottish FA when the clubs concerned compete in the Lower Pyramid Play Off matches.

GF asked if a suspension list would be produced for the SJFA clubs. TJ confirmed that there is already a suspension list on the SJFA website every week and that practice would continue.

RO asked if the Scottish FA would deal with the claims process for SJFA clubs, or if the compliance Officer would cite the SJFA team staff if they should be sent off, in the same way as senior clubs. It was confirmed that the Scottish FA would not deal with the claims process for SJFA clubs and the compliance officer would not issue notices of complaint to the SJFA team staff.  Such matters will continue to be dealt with by the SJFA in accordance with its disciplinary sytems and processes.

RO suggested that the best way to deal with this issue is to produce a set of Lower Pyramid Play Off Rules. This was agreed and GF advised that he would progress this. It was acknowledged that the rules would require to provide for all possible routes to potential promotion/relegation.

A registration comparison document, compiled by SB, was circulated to the members. There was a general discussion regarding registration deadlines and the difference between the leagues and the different deadline dates.

LD proposed that the Lower Pyramid Play Off Rules should detail the registration requirements for all clubs participating in the Play Off competition.

AR confirmed that the Lower Pyramid Play Off competition is run by the Scottish Lowland Football League (SLFL) and they would construct the set of rules.

There was a general discussion regarding club licensing for SJFA clubs, as only clubs who have a club license and gain full Scottish FA membership are eligible to compete in the Lower Pyramid Play Off competition.

TJ said that the requirement for a club license might focus the attention of some SJFA clubs. However he pointed out that there would be some clubs who would never be interested in promotion. A club may never be in a position to gain a Club License.

GF confirmed that the SLFL will create a set of revised Lower Pyramid Play Off Rules and put a proposal out to all concerned.

RO suggested that those that deal with the fixture scheduling from each league/association and the SJFA should meet prior to the beginning of the season and come up with a calendar suitable to all.

There was discussion about the date of the last league match for each league. TJ confirmed that the SJFA leagues finish on the third Saturday in June each year. However, he did advise that the SJFA will be reducing the number of their competitions and bringing the end of season for the leagues forward, so they finish earlier. This is a process that has already started. IMcQ said that local cup competitions cause problems and the SJFA had looked at trimming these and making league games a priority.

There was further discussion regarding registration deadlines for signing players and possibility of signing recreational players. RO asked if a date for registration could be written into Play Off Rules. Along the lines off "only players signed before 31 March will be eligible to play in the Play OFF Competition". SB agreed that he would approach the IT department and produce figures on the number of players signed after that date in the SHFL and SLFL.

TJ confirmed that the SJFA would amend their sanctions/suspensions to mirror the Scottish FA. TJ confirmed he would liaise with LD and VM regarding the disciplinary procedures. LD confirmed that unintended consequences would also be looked at.

There was a suggestion of a trial year but it was felt it would only be delaying the change. IM suggested it would be a trial year anyway, as it is unlikely that a club would be in a position to go up , due to not having a club license.

It was agreed the group would meet again in early January 2019.

 

 

 

Minutes of Meeting
Sub-Group of Pyramid Working Group
Wednesday 9 January 2019
Attendance: Ian Maxwell (Chief Executive, Scottish FA) - IM, Laura Dougan (Head of Football Governance, Scottish FA) - LD, Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Department, Scottish FA) - SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Department Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary, Scottish FA) - VM, Tom Johnston (Secretary, Scottish Junior FA) - TJ, George Fraser (Chairman, Scottish Lowland Football League) - GF, Andrew Renwick (Vice-President, East of Scotland FA) - AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary, East of Scotland FA) - JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary, Southern Counties FA) - RO.
IM stated that the draft Minutes were now available from the meeting on 14 November 2018 and they would be circulated to all members after the meeting.
AR complained that the Minutes were not available before now and that there seemed to be a reluctance to produce and distribute Minutes. IM explained that they were late due to workload.
LD confirmed that TJ had amended the SJFA Disciplinary Procedures to bring them into line with the Scottish FA’s Disciplinary Procedures. The only difference was that the SJFA would continue to issue fines. The Claims Process would also mirror the Scottish FA’s process and requires clubs to produce video evidence. LD mentioned that the SJFA process for Team Staff discipline was more severe than the Scottish FA. LD stated that she was more than happy with the progress made by SJFA and would continue to work with TJ where required.
AR and JG declared their disappointment that SJFA club discipline would not be dealt with by Scottish FA. LD stated that this was not possible due to resource and that SJFA leagues would continue to administer their own discipline.
RO explained that each organisation has its own rules. The Play Off Rules will cover all organisations.
LD further explained that when all clubs, who qualify, go into the Play Off competition, they will be governed by the same set of Play Off Rules. There will be uniformity.
IM reiterated that when clubs enter the Play Off competition, they will all abide by the rules in place for that competition.
TJ confirmed that he had already written to the SLFL to say that the SJFA would agree to the Play Off Rules. He stated that the objective must be to protect the integrity of the Play Off Competition.
AR asked TJ how the SJFA leagues were run. TJ stated that the leagues dealt with their own administration. AR asked why the SJFA leagues were not represented at this meeting. TJ confirmed that he was the representative.
AR asked if the accumulation of cautions procedure for SJFA clubs would be the same as Scottish FA. LD confirmed that this would be the case.
IM asked GF to confirm the position with the draft Play Off Rules. GF stated that he would have to get a formal proposal from the working group to proceed. He confirmed that the Play Off Rules need agreement from the East, South, SLFL and the Scottish FA.
RO mentioned that this had not been the case in the past. GF confirmed that all parties must agree to the Play Off Rules. IM stated that if there was an agreement at this working group, then that would be all parties in agreement. JG stated that could not be the case as he would have to run the information past the EOS FA Board first.
There was a brief discussion on the agreement and whether majority agreement would suffice or if all parties had to agree. 
LD asked all parties present if they felt there was anything at the moment that would mean they could not agree to the proposal. She acknowledged that there were a few hurdles to get over but asked all parties if they felt there would be formal opposition.
JG mentioned that the SHFL were not represented at the working group. This was followed by a general discussion regarding the demarcation line and the geographical issues regarding that and how some teams would potentially have to travel large distances.
AR stated that it looked like the East were objecting to everything, but insisted that this was not the case. He felt there were grey areas and his Board may have objections relating to in particular discipline.
RO asked why, if there was a general desire for this to work, could the working group not focus on developing the rules and making it happen, rather than trying to find fault. JG said it was the job of the working group to make it happen.
AR said that he expected the new leagues to be represented at the NPGB. LD confirmed that they were already represented by TJ. AR also asked about the obligation on SJFA clubs to comply with audit regulations. TJ confirmed clubs require to do this at the moment. GF asked TJ if there was any feedback from SJFA clubs on the floodlight issue. TJ stated there was none at all. He said that the SJFA clubs have always known they would need floodlights to progress.
IM stated that he felt that there was nothing that could be considered a “show-stopper” and felt the process could be fairly straightforward. He stated that if there was a vote – for the wrong reasons – to stall the process, the Scottish FA Board would consider such action.
GF confirmed that there was a SLFL Board meeting on 17 January and a general meeting on 7 February. The East confirmed that they had a meeting soon and RO confirmed that the South had a meeting scheduled for end of February. All parties agreed to keep their clubs up to date.
IM agreed that he would produce a proposal, along with LD, to allow the SLFL to progress the Play Off Rules, as required by GF.
AR mentioned that the contentious matter was Tayside. That would be where the East clubs would have an objection. JG clarified that rather than Tayside, another East league would be the issue. There were already East leagues and there could be no room for another one. AR said that the Pyramid must be extended to north of the Tay and the West as there was a gap there.
TJ said that the SJFA has Tayside and West Lothian clubs and he would not be willing to tell them that they had to join the EOS FA to progress. TJ said that the matter had already been agreed by the Scottish FA Board and that AR and JG were going over old ground. The decision has been made at Scottish FA Board level and it has to be agreed how it will work. It cannot be changed or challenged at this stage.
IM suggested that the appetite from clubs for the Pyramid could change over time. Clubs who are not interested at the moment could be interested in the future. It was the purpose of this working group to make the Pyramid work.
AR declared that there would be objections from the East. IM asked if the fundamental objection was the geography issue. There was a general discussion regarding the 25 clubs leaving the SJFA at the end of Season 2017/2018 and joining the East of Scotland and who was responsible for that. IM stated that consultation was not a one way street and that communication from EOS FA surrounding the process could have been better.
LD asked parties to be upfront with their concerns so that the process would not be delayed. She asked for any problems to be dealt with now and not further down the line.
JG asked SB about a proposal he made for a change in the Scottish FA’s Articles. SB confirmed that the proposal had been received and would follow the normal Rules Revision process as Articles could not be changed during the course of the season.
TJ asked IM to alert the Scottish FA Board to the direction of travel as he felt, due to the concerns raised at this meeting, that there could be an issue with the working group being able to comply with a Board directive.

 

 

These follow from the Maxwell email reprinted below.

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by superbigal

[Ginaro]

57 minutes ago, honestly united said:

Also not sure if there are any junior players reading, but what is there take on the fact that from next season you could all now be on a par with senior leagues, same disciplinary procedures etc, except if you get sent of in for example a ERJFA game you could get fined, yet if you moved and played EoS you wouldn't. So in theory you would be worse off ERJFA?

As mentioned in the EOS forum - players in the East Juniors (which will have identical disciplinary to the EOS if they are in the pyramid) should be pushing for a move to the EOS so they can save money if they get sent off!

[boulderdomb]

Surely the best thing to do right now would be to add the West Premiership at Tier 6 in time for 19/20 whilst negotiations are ongoing for the East to allow the West clubs to progress? It seems it would be very easy to include the West Premiership (maybe it could be renamed West of Scotland Football league for consistency?) into the pyramid.

I'm also not understanding the issues with the Junior Cup - why not just keep the name Junior Cup and include all of the non-league leagues in the competition? Surely that would increase the revenue from the cup too with more teams and better chance of marketing? 

[Kilbowie Benches]

1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

As mentioned in the EOS forum - players in the East Juniors (which will have identical disciplinary to the EOS if they are in the pyramid) should be pushing for a move to the EOS so they can save money if they get sent off!

It would if the players paid the fines but they don’t.

[Ginaro]

12 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

It would if the players paid the fines but they don’t.

Well then, if the clubs pay fines to the SJFA that's just another reason for them to move!

[Pyramidic]

27 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

It would if the players paid the fines but they don’t.

So in reality the Junior Clubs are paying the fines (which cover various SJFA/WRJFA/ERJFA/NRJFA salaries, honorariums and jollies) using money that could be better spent on improving club facilities and meeting licensing requirements.  Good value for money or not KB?

How much does the average Junior Club at the moment lose a year down this drain?

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Pyramidic

[Kilbowie Benches]

4 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

So in reality the Junior Clubs are paying the fines (which cover various SJFA/WRSJFA/ERSJFA/NRSJFA salaries, honorariums and jollies) using money that could be better spent on improving club facilities and meeting licensing requirements.  Good value for money or not KB?

How much does the average Junior Club at the moment lose a year down this drain?

 

Depends  on whether you’re a shower of dirty bassas or not 

[Stag Nation]

44 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

So in reality the Junior Clubs are paying the fines (which cover various SJFA/WRJFA/ERJFA/NRJFA salaries, honorariums and jollies) using money that could be better spent on improving club facilities and meeting licensing requirements.  Good value for money or not KB?

How much does the average Junior Club at the moment lose a year down this drain?

 

And does it pay NI contributions, and deduct PAYE, on this benefit in kind?

[Beenzon-Toste]

It's getting a bit desperate now, if that's the case being put forward for leaving the Juniors. "Come to us, we don't fine anyone!".

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

It's getting a bit desperate now, if that's the case being put forward for leaving the Juniors. "Come to us, we don't fine anyone!".

Shold be asking what's the benefit of staYong?  The grade

[Beenzon-Toste]

Shold be asking what's the benefit of staYong?  The grade

Oh dear, is the red mist clouding your eyes that much that you can't make out what the hell you're posting?

[honestly united]

5 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

It's getting a bit desperate now, if that's the case being put forward for leaving the Juniors. "Come to us, we don't fine anyone!".

Its not a case for staying, its just a general question are players / clubs happy that they will be at the same tier, with all other rules being the same, yet WRJFA and ERJFA will be fining players to pay for TJ et al, whereas the rest of the leagues in the pyramid dont fine players

[Guest]

2 hours ago, boulderdomb said:

I'm also not understanding the issues with the Junior Cup - why not just keep the name Junior Cup and include all of the non-league leagues in the competition? Surely that would increase the revenue from the cup too with more teams and better chance of marketing? 

Because there are already larger Cup competitions offering more for non league clubs.... like the South challenge Cup.... And for licensed clubs the big Scottish and being licensed will bring in more fans and money. 

If the sjfa wish to join, they can't make up the terms they wish to join under and expect everyone else to dance to that tune....... Sadly it doesn't work that way....well at least not in most walks of life. 

[Kilbowie Benches]

1 minute ago, G4Mac said:

Because there are already larger Cup competitions offering more for non league clubs.... like the South challenge Cup.... And for licensed clubs the big Scottish and being licensed will bring in more fans and money. 

If the sjfa wish to join, they can't make up the terms they wish to join under and expect everyone else to dance to that tune....... Sadly it doesn't work that way....well at least not in most walks of life. 

The SJFA aren’t making up any terms they are doing what the SFA are asking them to do!

[AlanCamelonfan]

15 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

20 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Shold be asking what's the benefit of staYong?  The grade

Oh dear, is the red mist clouding your eyes that much that you can't make out what the hell you're posting?

Is that because there is no reason 

[Kilbowie Benches]

15 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Is that because there is no reason 

No it’s because everyone is staYong put